Talk:Ismaili
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[edit] General
All info prior to 2 Aug 2003 has been completely replaced on 16 Aug 2003 by 171.67.88.19. I don't know how to merge them. --Menchi 01:28, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
That version was a copy from http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/i/ismaili.htm, so I reverted to the 2 Aug version. RickK 01:31, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
//ANyway, the whole information is more or less wrong. There really was an alamut, and there really was Hassan ibn Sabbahs rule, and afterwards a large stronghold-empire more or less on the same basis as Al QUaida. doh. SInan was the leader in the syrian region, approx. 100 years after Sabbah. Alamut got wiped out by Hulegu as he came smashing down the mountains. There is a professor from a university in Syria that wrote the serious book. Cant remember his name. Good egghunt. robin_lefay
There is a factual error. Ali was the cousin of Muhammad not his nephew. The later part is corect that Ali was married to Muhammad's daughter Fatima
All info prior to 2 Aug 2003 has been completely replaced on 16 Aug 2003 by 171.67.88.19. I don't know how to merge them. --Menchi 01:28, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
That version was a copy from http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/i/ismaili.htm, so I reverted to the 2 Aug version. RickK 01:31, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
There is a factual error. Ali was the cousin of Muhammad not his nephew. The later part is corect that Ali was married to Muhammad's daughter Fatima
--- With respect to the Nizari Ismaili portion, who are the followers of the Aga Khan, would it not make sense simply to request an authentification check by the Institute of Ismaili Studies in London?
I would also recommend using the crux from following links: http://www.akdn.org/imamat/imamat.html http://www.akdn.org/imamat/community_history.html http://www.akdn.org/imamat/community_20th.html
I would also highly recommend bringing in the AKDN's Ethical Framework document, which talks about the core ethics of Nizari Ismailism (it's a very good five pages): http://www.iis.ac.uk/learning/life_long_learning/akdn_ethical_framework/akdn_ethical_framework.htm
\AW
[edit] History of the Nizari Ismaili Community in the 20th Century
I don't know if this info is right or wrong but I know PR bumf when I read it. This is hagiography, not description and should be deleted. I've got nothing against Ismailis, but this clearly is not written from a neutral point of view.
I do know that the Aga Khan was a member of the jet set, very wealthy and socially prominent. His son was quite the playboy. For all I know there's nothing wrong with that. But it deserves mention.
[edit] The Other Ismailis
When is somebody going to write an article on the other Sever group, the Daoodi Bohras, who split Ismailism when they rejected Nizar in favor of his brother Al-Musta'li during the Egyptian Fatimid dynasty?
It's not that I care personally, I'm not Muslim let alone Dawoodi, it's just that it doesn't seem fair to talk only of the Aga Khan's Khojas when discussing Ismailis. It's a bit like discussing Protestantism without mentioning the Baptists.
One interesting angle is that, from what I've read about the Bohras they're far closer to "traditional" Islam in their outward practice than the Agakhanids; I remember very dimly one reference saying that except for their Muharram observance (which the Khojas don't bother with much) they're closer in practice to the Sunnis than the other Shi'ites -- including the Twelvers.
But no, I respectfully decline to write it myself. I'm just too damn disorganized in the head to make an adequate Encyclopedist, however much I'd love the prestige. (But I will be happy to go to Mumbai to do research if somebody will take up a collection for my plane ticket!)
Anyway. Their official web site (AFAICT) is www.bohra.net; you'd also get oodles of hits off Google.
- www.bohra.net is NOT the official website for the Dawoodi Bohras, nor is it actively maintained anymore. Its last update was in June 2001.
- Aebrahim 25 Jun 2005
The official website for the Dawoodi Bohra's is www.mumineen.org.
- Have just started a page for the Dawoodi Bohras but it is in fact nothing more than a stub at present. am currently reading some history on the Bohras and should end up adding more material. Anyone else wishing to contribute is more than welcome.
- Hulleye 11:06, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- www.mumineen.org is NOT the official website for the Dawoodi Bohras. More info on this in their disclaimer. It is however the most comprehensive source of information related to Dawoodi Bohras on the internet.
- Aebrahim 25 Jun 2005
Nizari Ismailis do not refer to themselves as Aga Khanis, the title of Aga Khan has been present for four generations while the Ismaili faith consists of over 1300 years of Imamat.
[edit] Planning the overhaul
Well Nizari muslims are reffred more in terms of shias' as it is one of the most integrated community and I must say AgaKanis is not they refer themselves but Nizari Ismaili Muslim is the correct name.
Let's start addressing each point. Here are my thoughts (and I will keep adding more):
- It seems odd to say, on the one hand, that "the majority of the Mustaalid Ismailis are known as Dawoodi Bohras" and, on the other, that "The Nizari Ismaili community are today headed by their 49th imam" [sic]. Shouldn't we go, in both cases, to saying something like "the largest <Mustali/Nizari> community is ...>
- As for whether it is appropriate to refer to Isma'ilis generally as "Seveners", that's how they are referred to, to differentiate them from other Shia schools—the reference is to their branch being formed because of a disagreement on the seventh imam—as opposed to the Zaidiyya, who disagreed on the fifth.—iFaqeer | Talk to me! 05:09, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
- I have made a change to the introduction of the followers of the Aga Khani.—iFaqeer | Talk to me! 21:26, Oct 22, 2004 (UTC)
I would like to add that there is another possible explanation of the word "Assassin": derived from the Arabic "Assass" (Alef, sin,sin) with the principal meaning to found, to establish. To some scholars this root is a more likely source for the term since the early puritanism of the sect establsihed by Hassan As-Sabah was rigorous in the extreme and the use of drugs appears unlikely in the climate reigning in Assiout at the time. In addition, the root derivation of "hashish" is not specifically related to the drug cannabis but can refer to grass in general and even, in some bedouin dialects, to all plant matter. I do not think a definite decision can be made between the two possible derivations since the explanation of drug use as a reason for the fanatacism of the Assassins has such widespread currency. However I do think that the other explanation has enough plausibility for it to be mentioned.Wildbe 06:29, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
[edit] The etymology of "assassin" has nothing to do with hashish
I won't mess with the page, but as a long-time etymology buff I can assure you that there is almost certainly no truth to the legend of the old man on the mountain drugging people with hashish and that then morphing into the word "hashashin", etc. etc. - this story is retold more often than any other etymology legend I have ever come across. Probably because it combines illicit and disparate elements such as drugs, violence and religion, but I digress.
This all originated in a spurious account by Marco Polo, which is discussed here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hashshashin
Most likely it came from "follower of Hassan" and never had even a remote connection to hashish. The popularity of that Marco Polo account, however, has all but buried the facts in fanciful legend.
- Be that as it may, the fact that a lot of people mention it and some believe and/or promote it is worth mentioning. Of course, with the explanation of what the most likely origin of this "explanation" is. Besides everything else, it is a way of showing how people have viewed, mythologised, and/or demonised the group.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 00:52, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] What the-!
This article was again starting to sound like all Ismailis are Nizari followers of the Aga Khan. We need to make this more general and cover other Islamilis; like the Dawoodi Bohras... I am reverting to the version before: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ismaili&diff=9789752&oldid=9712025 . Please don't be angry; let's start again there and present the whole picture. Let us either create a separate page (live Dawoodi Bohras) for the folks that believe that the Aga Khan is the Hazar Imam. Or put the material about that belief in a subheading on the Ismaili page. —iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 01:48, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] History section is over-the-top
The "history" section is pure myth. There's a page on Ali ibn Abi Talib (over which Shi'a and Sunni are sparring right now) and that page doesn't have any of this hagiography. This section is a serious embarrassment to Wikipedia. I don't have time to rewrite it at the moment, alas. Zora 04:45, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
- Although the info in it is right (according to my believes), but the way some of it is worded is wrong, it gives the wrong impression of what Shia think about Imam Ali; e.g: "The Holy Prophet said that to look at Ali's face was the worship of Allah". ...the Allah I am removing from the end, as it gives impressions that Shia's believe Ali was God. --Khalid! 21:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] History section clearly needs editing
Quite frankly the history section would be better deleted than staying in its sorry state. Would someone with some knowledge on the matter, knowledge that is academic, objective, rational and above all historical (IE not what’s in the history section right now) edit the page? It’s a real embarrassment.
Another point, the history section is also badly written. Almost as if it’s in bullet form. It has no flow, and frequently refers to non academic terms.
[edit] Disputed
Due to the history sections inaccuracy, I have flagged it. Please see discussion above
[edit] Taqiyya
I believe that Ismailis practice obligatory Taqiyya. It is no wonder that information on their practices is sparse. Should this be included in the article? Zain 04:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Are most of you guy's nuts? Before blaberring about the Ismaili's you should understand that with the diffrent splits and sects in Islam, there well be diffrent ways of practicing their faiths. The Itna Shari beat their chest on the day of the Imam's death (he was killed because they ditched him, and guess what, the Ismaili's stayed with the Imam and fought to their deaths.) DO SOME REASEARCH ON ISMAILI'S AND AGA KHAN THAN START POSTING NONSENSE! 71.28.129.200
- Some research? Perhaps some "research" would tell you that there were no Shia divisions at the time of Hussain. There were no Ismailis or Ithna Ashris. Zain 04:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
True, there were no sects at the time Hazrat Hussain was Martyred, but the Itna Sharis (later developed) are the ones that punish themselves for this , on the 10th of Muharram
- It is not a form of punishment. It is a form of mourning. 68.37.44.48 01:34, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Too right! Maatam is a common middle eastern practice which demonstrates mourning, hence the word "Maatam" which means "Grief." Christians and Jews of middle eastern ethnicity also practice it. Beating oneself with weapons is NOT however Maatam according to Ithna'ashari Shari'a and it should be noted that this practice (only found in Iran and Pakistan) is considered Haraam by all other Shi'a Ulema. (Djalo24)
[edit] Cleanup
This article must be cleaned up, especially the story about Ali, as it doesn't really fit in, plus it is clearly a violation of NPOV. DigiBullet 19:58, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Ismaili
There are two distinct sects within Ismaili: Nizari and Mustali. Mustali are subidiveded into Alavi, Dawoodi and Sulaimani Bohras. While the Nizari are united under Aga Khan. The each subsect of Mustali Ismailis have their own pages. I think Nizari page should have detailed information about Nizari sect. Presently, the Ismaili page also acts as the main page for Nizari sect.
Siddiqui 20:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
You can't forget the Druze Ismailis - they split at / after the 16th Imam. That being said, fact of the matter is that when people use the term Ismaili in today's venacular, they are referring to the Nizari Ismailis. The other Ismailis go by their own different names - be it Alavi Bohras, Dawoodi Bohras, Sulaimani Bohras or the Druze.
User:anonymous 29 March 2006
There needs to be some clarification on the use of the word Ismailis by academics, by lay people and by Ismailis themselves as well as a thrust to be more inclusive of non-Khoja Ismaili history. I know from my own experience being a Khoja Nizari Ismaili that we normally refer to ourselves simply as Ismaili, especially in places where South Asians are a minority and where non-Khoja Nizari Ismailis live, since it is the most inclusive term. A generation ago I believe that Khoja Nizari Ismailis referred to themselves only as Khoja (at least in the sub-continent) and maybe East Africa where there were other South Asians so the distinction was important, because Khoja is an ethnic/place designation. Nizari Ismailis also call themselves Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims. I don't think they use the term Nizari in general discussions. There are also terms used within the community to refer to each other such as the Gujrati term "dīn bhai". Khoja Nizari Ismailis never refer to themselves as Seveners or anything else that I am aware of. People outside the community will often call Khoja Nizari Ismailis "Aga Khanī" since they are followers of the Aga Khan (are there Khoja that are not Aga Khanī?) and the term is only used by Khoja Nizari Ismailis when identifying themselves to someone outside the community as a clarification of identity. There are also non-Khoja Nizari Ismailis in Central Asia and the Middle East. I do not have information about what they call themselves other than Ismaili but it would be important to note. There is a bias within the community toward Khoja Nizari Ismailis due to their status in the West and the fact that the Central Asian community has been isolated from the rest of the community (and the world) due to the political situation in the region. Central Asian Ismailis in fact outnumber Khoja Ismailis in the world but their former isolation and lower socio-economic status meant that they did not wield the influence that Khoja Ismailis did. The Central Asian community has only recently been reunited with the rest of the community and hopefully this will change things for the better in the future.
Until I started reading about Shia Islam in my twenties, I was unaware that there were other non-Khoja Nizari Ismaili communities that were referred to as Ismaili, for example the Bohra. Do the Bohra refer to themselves as Ismaili? What are the terms Bohra use to describe themselves?
In any case, I feel that the naming convention used for Ismailis are confusing to outsiders (and often to insiders as well) because they are context dependent and refer to place of origin, ethnicity and religion. They are also controlled by the majority and are not necessarily inclusive. The history of the community is also not inclusive. The article is a good start but I feel it needs major reworking (and perhaps fragmentation) to make it comprehensible and accurate. A diagram that accurately lists the names of all the Imāms in each branch along with dates and showing where splits occurred would be a great resource as I don't believe there's any place where you could find such a list.
I wish I could write and not just suggest but hopefully someone can take up my ideas and run with them. Any comments?
Alnoor 18:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
Khoja is a cultural term, not referring to a religion. There are numerous Nizari Ismailis who are non-Khoja, such as those of Syria, Iran, Afghanistan, China and Tajikistan (just to name a few).
User:anonymous 25 April 2006
I think that it would be too confusing to bring up "Khoja" on this page. Khoja is just what the various converts to Nizari Ismailism were called by the Pirs that converted them- mainly a word referring to the geographical area in which the conversion took place. That is why there are also Nizari Ismailis who call themselves "Momnas" and other names that I may not know. If you believe in the rope of Imammat up to the point of the present 49th Imam- the Aga Khan- then you are united under an umbrella of "Nizari Ismaili" despite whether your family was converted by the Pirs or not or whether you are ethnically Middle Eastern or Indian. Ideologically there is not a difference even though some of us have different rites and rituals and others of us look different.
As someone already commented, a non-Nizari Ismailis could also be called Khoja. The conversions of certain groups to Nizari Ismaili took place over many years- sometimes even generations. This led to some people adopting a religion that is a hybrid of Ismailism/Sufism/Hinduism. There are people that live in the Indian Subcontinent who may refer to themselves as Khoja or Momna (because that is what the Pirs called their forefathers) but who do not presently believe in the Aga Khan.
As someone already commented, the 3 different types of Bohras, are a sub-sect that fall under the Bohra sect.
Finally, an Ismaili is (in true name form) someone who believed in Imam Ismail, not Musa Kazim. Truly there are 3 branches of Shias that are "Ismailis"-
1. The Nizari Ismailis- those who during the Nizar/Musta'Ali split believed in Nizar as the successor to Mustansirbillah and currently believe in the Aga Khan as the 49th Imam. It is also important to note, that unlike the other Shia sects, Nizari Ismailis do NOT consider Hasan (the son of Imam Ali and brother or Imam Hussein) to be an Imam. Imam Ali was 1st, Imam Hussein was 2nd, Imam Zayn-al-Abidin was 3rd...etc.
2. The Bohra Ismailis- those who during the Nizar/Musta'Ali split believed in Musta'Ali as the successor to Mustansirbillah
3. The Druzes- Those who believed in Imam Ismail and did not name a successor to Imam Hakim Bi Amrullah
It is true that since the Nizari Ismailis are the largest group of the 3 branches above, when generally calling someone an "Ismaili" people refer to the Nizari Ismailis...that is nothing personal, it is just that they are the largest in number and it is shorter than saying Nizari Ismaili (hence the reason some use the term Aga Khani instead which clarifies it). Regardless, I think that all 3 branches should be mentioned on this page and that maybe we should use the 3 terms above to differentiate. How people colloquialize "Ismaili" is just a reflection of the fact that maybe they do not know the cvomplexities behind the way the tree has branched. But we are all rooted in the same lovely shade of Islam- beginning with Allah's revelation to the final prophet- Muhammed (may peace be upon him).
[edit] Deleted section for copyvio
I deleted:
- Since the 12th century fantastical tales of the Assassins, their mysterious leader and their remote mountain strongholds in Syria and northern Iran have captured the European imagination. These legends first emerged when European Crusaders in the Levant came into contact with the Syrian branch of the Nizari Ismā'īliyyūn, who at the behest of their leader were sent on dangerous missions to kill their enemies. Elaborated over the years, the legends culminated in Marco Polo’s account according to which the Nizari leader, described as the ‘Old Man of the Mountain’, was said to have controlled the behaviour of his devotees through the use of hashish and a secret garden of paradise. So influential were these tales that the word ‘assassin’ entered European languages as a common noun for murderer, and the Nizari Ismā'īliyya were depicted not only in popular mythology but also in Western scholarship as a sinister order of "assassins".
- In recent decades new scholarship on the history of the Ismā'īliyyūn has established the extent to which older Western accounts have confused fact and fantasy. In view of the very different picture of Ismaili history that has now emerged, Farhad Daftary’s book considers the origins of the mediaeval Assassin legends and explores the historical context in which they were fabricated and transmitted. How did they persist for so long, and in what form did they come to exert such a profound influence on European scholarship? Daftary’s fascinating account ultimately reveals the extent to which the emergence of such legends was symptomatic of both the complex political and cultural structures of the mediaeval Muslim world and of Europeans’ ignorance of that world. The book will be of great interest to all those concerned with Ismā'īlī studies, the history of Islām and the Middle East, as well as the mediaeval history of Europe. Also included as an appendix is the first English translation of the French orientalist Silvestre de Sacy’s famous early 19th century “Memoir on the Assassins and the Etymology of their Name”.
.. since it's copied from here. Flammifer 12:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Dasond
I'd like to see information on how Aga Khan and the imams got their money and how the Aga Khan remains as one of the richest men in the world. It should also be noted that Ismailies are advised to give 1/8 of their income in the form of Dasond. This 12.5% "tax" goes towards the Ismaili community. Also, there is a special title for those that give 1/4 of their income and are part of the "one fourth committee." This Dasond, while not mandatory, brings in millions of dollars for the Ismaili community. This money is given to a "Mukhi Saheb" (kind of like a priest, a leader in the services) in the Jamat Khana (the name of the church) while reciting a prayer asking to be blessed of impurity. This prayer asks for forgiveness through Allah, Mohammad and the current Imam. The Mukhi Saheb blesses the giver of Dasond with blessings from the Imam.
Another form of purification is through the drinking of Niaz. Niaz is water that has been touched or blessed by Aga Khan. The Ismaili follower drinks this Niaz after reciting a prayer to cleanse themselves of evil.
Reply: Dasond and Niaz are private practices in the Aga Khani tradition. If you want to learn more about dasond or the money that is given to the Imams, read about the "Haj Bibi Case" or maybe it should be a separate Wikipedia entry. It clearly settles any question into that matter. Niaz is something that should not even be brought up- simply stated it is holy water. It is a ritual that has immense significance for Aga Khanis and has immense meaning for them. What the meaning is and what is symbolizes is private and personal to each individual. All anyone knows on an objective level is that it is the equivalent of holy water.
- what's this one-fourth commitee? BadCRC 12:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Personal comment in article
An unsigned comment was left in the article by User talk:213.42.2.28 by the following edit. I'm not sure what the editor meant and I've removed his comment from the article, though I mention it here for posterity. --Bluerain (talk) 10:32, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Hasan as Imam?
I'm fairly certain that the 2nd Imam in the Nizari tradition is Hussain ibn Ali, and not his brother Hasan. Can anyone clarify if this view is shared by the other Ismaili sub-sects? --Bluerain (talk) 07:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Syncretic ?
I see the category "syncretic faiths" has been added. What reasoning lies behind this ?--Vindheim 14:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
