Talk:Italian people
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[edit] Moorish influence
Did the Moors not impact the ethnic bloodlines directly, or is the Moorish influence due solely to the occupancy of the Iberian people? Relir 22:08, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
The Moors only slightly affected but the smallest amount of bloodlines in certain parts of Southern Italy and in Sicily and only occupied such lands for about three centuries before being evicted by the Normans, descendants of Scandinavian Vikings from the region of Normandy in France. They had a more significant impact in southern Spain, which they controlled for nearly 800 years. Epf 01:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
There were Moors in Southern Italy and Italians in North Africa. In Sardinia you can today find the Maureddos, folks coming from the ancient Moors that mingled with the local islanders over 3,000 year ago. Jimmy 01:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
- In Sicily and southernmost parts of Italy, the Saracens, Arabs and Moors, practicing Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East, invaded and briefly occupied from the 8th to 12th centuries AD (until the Normans took over in the 1100's). Arabs, Moors or Saracens blended in the local Catholic Christian population to slowly become Italians in culture, and their descendants can be found throughout southern Italy. There are intense controversies of the "Negroid" African racial/ethnological origins of the Moors or Saracens from Tunisia, but their unique genes said to introduced prototypical "dark-looking" traits make up a very small proportion of the Mediteranean (esp. southern Italian and southern Spanish) populations. + 63.3.14.129 15:57, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't get why Sicily is always associated to the moor invasion. Sicily and Calabria are more close to Greek culture with a lot of Normans (=Scandinavian) infuence.
[edit] About the French
Fertuno said:
"You just have to know a bit of history of Italy to infer that no people is closer to Italians as far as culture, tradition and history is concerned than French. In Italy they call them their "cousins". Maybe they don't deserve it, I know."
Why do they not deserve it? What makes you so better than them? Miskin 23:55, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- I guess sarcasm hasn't made it to your area yet. I was just referring to those French that seem to be ashamed of being related to Italians and have persistently deleted all mentions to this relation from the article. As you can read, now according to the article Italians have nothing to do with French. In my opinion that's just ridiculous, but so it is and maybe now they are pleased with this. --Fertuno 16:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if that was sarcasm. In any case there's no French editing the article, and there's nobody being ashamed of anybody, I don't know how you're coming up with such ideas. Best thing would be to remove any references of "X related to Y", they're all personal opinions anyway, not abiding to any fixed criteria. Miskin 21:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
___ First to add to Carlo's comment above saying that much of the people living near the borders in Italy are not Italian is utterly ridiculous. In fact a lot of land in France such as Corsica, Provence-Alps Cote d'Azur, Savoie (Savoy in Rhone Alps) which contain more than 10 percent of France's 60 million, of which many are Italian or have partial Italian heritage. Italy lost those territories during the Napeolonic Age, and during the Risorgimento, but the populations continue to be Italian. Many still bear Italian last names and city names, though they were tranlsated into French (e.g. Italian surname Rossi, changed to Rosse in France; happens to be one of France's most common surnames), (Corsica was changed to Corse, Nizza was changed to Nice, Savoia was changed to Savoie); Even the nation of Monaco speak a language mixed with French and Italian called Monegasque even though Monaco is surrounded entirely by France. Also Languedoc-Roussillon is ethnically Catalan (a Spanish people), a region of France with 4.7 million people (which the most common last name in that region happens to be Garcia), so your statement above is ridiculous. I also cant believe that you still want to debate about the population of blondes in Italy. So blondes make up 15% of Italy's population. I thought we moved on from that debate. Should we argue about the large frequencies of redheads in Sicily as well???
I dont think that reference relations to ethnicities are an opinion. There are so many sources on the Spanish People article page that shows that the Italians are most related to the French, Spanish, and the Portuguese. Besides, my last name comes from the Gauls who invaded a part of Italy, a part of Italy that my father happen to be from, so clearly there is some Gaulish/Norman French blood in me.
History tells us (http://roangelo.net/valente/conquest.html), that the southern half of Italy and Sicily had more than 400 years of French colonisation initiated by Christianised Vikings from northern France when the Italian city states were weak. They helped build southern Italy into a prosperous and rich area. Sicily was one of the richest nation's in Europe at the time due to extensive trade with other territories due to French kings and colonists. People who want to deny important French contributions in Italy are ridiculous. In fact, Italian contributions to France are even greater. - Galati (November 5th, 2006)
Dear Galati, I was referring to Val d'Aosta and Alto Adige/South Tyrol. Those regions are not inhabitated by italians. So my stantment was not "ridicolous". Maybe your answer is. If you want precision monegasque/monegasco isn't a mixture of italian and french. It is an italian dialect without anything of french (as well as Corse/Corso and Niçoise/Nizzardo). Maybe I'm really not able to make me understand in english... I don't want at all to debate about the population of blondes in Italy! I just want to say that there isn't any racial difference between Italians from the north and Italians from the south as the article says (referring to a source that just denied this thesis)! About the relation between Italians and French I agree with you. As just Fertuno said before me we call French "cugini doltr'Alpe" (cousins from across the Alps) and french culture is the most similar to our culture.
- Well I guess you dont happen to know that the chief ethnic base of Aostans are Ligurians, like those of Liguria. it was colonised by the Celts, Franks, Romans, and Lombards just like everywhere else in northern italy, so how are you going to tell me that they are not Italian. Again, with South Tyrol, its history is just like everywhere else in North Italy. The people are a mixture of an ethnic Celtic, Lombard, and Roman base. Just because they speak French and German does not make their ethnic composition any different from Italians. Also because you believe that there is no difference between southern and northern Italians, they definitely are Italian, just like the people living in Corsica, Nice (in Cote d'Azur), and Savoy, because despite the fact that they live in France and speak France, they are of Italian origin.
- Monegasque is a language related to the Genoese dialect but it is influenced by Provencal, and Occitan. Provencal and Occitan are languages centred in France so therefore, there is French influence in Monegasque. Just ask them to say their alphabet, and it sounds a lot like French letters too (along with Italian).
- Personally, I dont believe that there is a drastic racial difference between southern and northern Italians, but I have to admit after going there, that the past Germanic, and Frankish influence in northern Italy is more profound than the south, as they had a lot more Greek colonisation whereas, the north was not that influened by Greeks as much, though the south did have some Germanic and Frankish colonisation. I also believe that basic ethnic composition of all Italians is Roman. I will continue to hold my stance on the fact that many French people living in Corsica, Nice, Marsielles (in Cote d'Azur), and Savoy are Italian or have a partial Italian ethnic base (Italian (Rossi, Rosse) and Spanish (Garcia) last names are among the top 20 most populated last names in France). The Italian people and the French people are very much related ethnically, culturally, and of course religiously. - Galati (November 7th, 2006)
Really don't you know about south Tyrol? Do you know why it is called this way? Because it is the southern part of a land called Tyrol (the northern part is in Austria). Tyrol is inhabitated by tyrolese people. They are tyrolese and not Italian (If you think tyrolese people are italian people you have to think also north Tyrol is inhabitated by italians...but it isn't). Maybe you forgot that the borders of a state may be not also the borders of an ethnic groups. Tyrolese people in fact speak a german language and have a german culture. The reason Italy annexed south tyrol afther the great war was simply strategic and, as happened very simply during a war, didn't care about the population of Tyrol. There is also an article in wikipedia about Tyrol. In this article we have to speak about Italian people so, I think, about people of Italian culture. Not about people who have an italian cityzenship but have a german culture. About Aosta. People of Val d'Aosta speak Franco-Provençal and have a Franco-Provençal culture. They are Franco-Provençal (or, as they prefer, Arpitans) and not Italian. (If you think Arpitans are italian you again have to think the whole Arpitania is inhabitated by Italians, but again it isn't so). Germans and Arpitans are minority ethnic groups of italy now defended by the costitution. Call them ethnic Italians it is a violence to their identity. It really seem that you have a great confusion between "ethnicity" and "race" (that, if you aren't Nazi, are two very different things). Your talk about "ethnic basis" may seems ridicolous.
- And it really seems you have a great confusion between "ethnicity" and "mother tongue". So according to your vision French-speaking, German-speaking and Italian-speaking Swiss are not Swiss, they are French, German or Italian, and Switzerland wouldn't even exist? Congratulations. --Fertuno 19:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
- We are writing about ethnic group. Switzerland is a state and it exists :D of course but "swiss" is not an ethnicity. "Switzerland wouldn't even exist" is just your strange conclusion, not mine. Italian-Speaking Swiss are ethnic italians (as they are recognised also by swiss constitution) and so German-speakers, Arpitans-speakers and Romansh-speakers are ethnic germans, ethnic arpitans, ethnic romansh. This is not MY vision, as you write, is the vision of almost every european constitution. What's the matter Fertuno? It's a problem for you that exists a country in which poeple of different ethnicity live together without troubles?
Again about precision: Provençal is a veriety of Occitan (so writing Provençal and Occitan is a nonsense). Occitan is a language centred in France. But IT ISN'T French. (so there isn't any french influence on Monegasco). I also think (I spent all my holydays in Nice since I was a child) that also the Influence of Provençal on Monegesco and Nizzardo is extrimely little if it exist. Borders of a state may not be the same that a border of an ethnic group, as I have just wrote before, and so Corsica, Nizza and the coast between Nizza and the Italian border are French territory inhabitated by Italians (and they don't speak french as their native language, they speak italian dialects). And Val d'Aosta and south Tyrol are Italian territories inhabitated by Arpitans and south Germans. Savoy has never been inhabitated by italian people. Savoy is inhabitated by Arpitans. The region of Languedoc is inhabitated by Occitans. Only one department of this region (Perpignano, the one on the spanish border) is inhabitated by Catalans. And Marseille is not in Cote d'Azur. Cote d'Azur Is the coast between Ventimiglia and Cannes.
About the relation between Italian and French people I again agree with you.
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- No, I dont think that I am confused about the difference of "race" and "ethnicity". For example, the Germans, and Italians are a different ethnicity, but part of the Caucasian Race, ya, I thnik I get it. Oh, and I like your reference to me being a Nazi, even though I agreed that there was not much of a racial difference between northern and southern Italians. But what the hec, I mixed race (Italian, Jamaican, Native Jamaican Amerindian, and Irish), but sure I would make the perfect Nazi, because I am part Black!!!!! - Galati (08/11/06
I was not saying you are Nazi, I'm sorry. In Italy we say "se tu.." (if you) also for sentences which are not referred to the person we are talken to but are just general and impersonal. I wrote "you" but I was wrong, I had to wrote <if someone is not Nazi, "ethnicity" and "race" are two very different things>. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, due to my bad knowledge of english- signed by anon ip
- The French and to add Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian and Greek peoples, owe their cultural legacy to Latin...not modern-day Italian culture (it's true the Romans are an Italic people from the peninsula). The peoples of what we call "Mediteranean" or southern Europe were influenced by the Roman Empire. But, I disagree on the concept of calling the French "cousins" of Italians, or to include French people (their namesake originated from Franks or the Frankish tribes from Germany in the 6th to 10th centuries AD) in the Italic peoples and Italic languages is too early to call it academic or reliable. I may consider a proposal whether or not to include Italians in the Celtic and Germanic peoples articles, a major theme in the "Padania" and "Lombard league" movements to call for the Northern regions (I mean a third to a half of the country) to become an independent country from Rome. The current regional and provincial feelings in Italy are in a comeback and this made me skeptical on whether there will be an Italian nation-state in the 21st century, but Italy is a member of the European Union and might be a state of the future proposed "United European States" if it goes on this way. + 63.3.14.129 04:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Many of your comments are unfounded. Firstly, Italians are not homogeneous- and culturally and ethnically there is absolutely no doubt that northern italy (especially the north-east) is very, very similar to France (especially to the south half). Italians routinely refer to the French as their "cousins", given the similar culture and often blended history. Also, there was a huge Angevin and Norman influence in Southern Italy. South italian culture is less similar to French culture (but similar nonetheless!), with some aspects of the culture more closely resembling Greek culture. Second, your rant about separation of the northern regions is not quite true. There is no "comeback" of significance, as this has been a very small element since Bossi's heyday. Those who wish to separate, wish to do so based on economic and political separation from Rome- Not on racial and "Celtic/Germanic" roots as you imply. Many of the residents of northern Italy have "southern" roots, both historically and due to the migrations of the last 150 years. Finally, open your eyes and embrace the common european culture and love the regional differences within it! There is no room for political nationalism in today's world. 66.183.217.31 17:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
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- There is no distinctive difference between an Italian and a Frenchmen from Nice, Marseilles, and Savoy. They call each other cousins on the basis of ties to the Catholic faith, a similar culture, and to a lesser extent, their European heritage. I lived in France for quite some time and the French do not make distinctions between themselves and Italians...or the Spanish and Portuguese for that matter!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.222.112.155 (talk) 16:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC).
I agree with the last two posers!
[edit] About the German invaders
I'd like to add my words. Having studied medieval history at the Univ. I let you know that the "Barbarian" tribes (Goths, Visigoths etc.) that according to some writers "invaded and destroyed" the Roman Empire, were not Germans. They were ROMAN-GERMANS, that's mercenaries belonging to the Roman Empire. It is wrong to paint these folks as foreigners or as German invaders. Those tribes respected the Roman laws, such as the Leges (e.g. Fragmenta, etc. while their Lex Romana Visigotorum, for example, includes no German law!) So we cannot consider them as a "German army" consisting of "German soldiers." Also, there was no barbarian invasion in those days, but a local rebellion among Romans that took place inside the same Roman Empire because of the disagreement of two competitors, Oreste the Roman patrician and Odoacre the Roman-German. Both of them were killed, and because of the lack of a king the Roman Empire felt in the year 476. Try reading Prof. Cortese's writings, one of the best writers about this topic. Nick 14:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
- It is true that these Germans were not necessarily invaders, but they contributed to the decline of the Roman Empire. For example, Germanic people began to spread into the frontiers of the Roman Empire for more than 200 years before its decline. They were more immigrants than invaders who basically adopted Roman tradition, religion, and custom.
- It is said that around 410 CE, there were some 60 million people in the Roman Empire; until this time Germanic people were a minority. The corrupt beauracracies of Rome began to damage the strength of the Roman Empire. Soon the number of Roman soldiers began to decrease due to raised tax levels in certain provinces and places like France, Spain, and Italy (particularily in the north) began to become succeptable to Germanic penetration (Mass influxes of Germanic migrants into many Roman provinces including northern Italy.
- The Visigoths, were a major Germanic group to enter the Italian peninsula. They were pressured by the Huns who began to overrun the Levant, and then enter Eastern Europe. The Visigoths began to enter Italy in sizeable numbers, and invaded Rome, the heart of the Roman Empire, and then from there invaded southern Italy. German tribes like the Vandals, and Ostrogoths spread through other European nations like Spain and France. So in the beginning, before the politics of Rome became disastrous to the empire, the Germanic peoples were absorbed and integrated migrants, who later was joined by Germanic invaders (Visigoths, Vandals etc). A very interesting and well put together read: http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Roman-Empire-History-Barbarians/dp/customer-reviews/0195159543 - Galati
Everybody was Roman-something at the time. In late Antiquity the term "Roman" has lost its ethnic meaning, therefore those people remain Germanic. Miskin 11:57, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Proposal: expand see also list
I wanted to include and promote new articles on other communities of the Italian people/diaspora. I want to get started on Italians in France, the Netherlands and Sweden, Italians in Argentina and Chile, and Italian (mostly Corsican) migration to Puerto Rico, and even Italians in South Africa. These countries have quite a lot of Italian communities and descendants contributed to their home countries. What can I do to get started, other than reliable sources and research to comply with Wikipedia standards? + 63.3.14.1 15:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC) Examples of proposed pages/articles:
- Italians in Austria
- Italians in Belgium
- Italians in France
- Italians in Greece
- Italians in Luxembourg
- Italians in the Netherlands
- Italians in South Africa
- Italians in Spain
- Italians in Sweden
- Itaians in Czech Republic
[edit] Are Italians 1/2 Black?
I saw this film where the guy told an Italian gangerter he was 1/2 negro. I also heard other Italians call each other African. Is this true? We should include it.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 16:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- The film you are talking about is True Romance, where Dennis Hopper (playing Clifford Worley) tells Christopher Walken (playing Vincenzo Coccotti, a Sicilian gangster) that Siclians are half-black due to the historic presence of the Moors in the territory. He does so in order to insult and force Coccotti to kill him. This is a film, a piece of fiction, where a character uses racist stereotypes in order to attack another character, it has no credebility as a proper historic source or other and it confuses the North African Moors with Sub-Saharan African Blacks, exagerating their impact on Sicilians. The Ogre 17:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- Yes that is the film, u guys are good. But Italians in Italy do call people Black. Yeah and teh Moors and the Sub are the same people in antiquity. hence the term Blacker Moor. Many Moors come from West Africa.anyway thats it from me. I guess we cant add the content. See the book, Blacks in Antiquity and Before Color Prejudice. Which shows the DNA line which starts in Africa and lives in modern Italians, this is why they hair is curly and they are dark in color, some of them. Same with teh Spanish you were ruled by Africans and Arabs--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 23:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
You may be interested in the article Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe. The Ogre 19:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Actually, Italians are pretty homogenous in terms of European. Just becuase Italians have curly hair means nothing. I know Irish and Scandinavian people with curly hair. Please Read: http://www.technologyreview.com/Biotech/16421/page2/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.222.112.185 (talk) 20:32, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
I can't believe you guys are having this conversation under this heading... Most Italians dont have curly hair by the way, but of course none of u guys have ever been to Italy. --Burgas00 21:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
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- I have been to Italy, and most Italian people dont have curly hair. In fact a lot of people are light hair as well even in Sicily! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.36.26.204 (talk) 22:57, 19 March 2007 (UTC).
MOORS BELONGS TO CAUCASIAN RACE! MOST OF THEM WERE FAIR BERBER OR SLAVS CONVERTED TO ISLAM, THEY CONQUERRED 3/4 OF SPAIN AND PORTUGAL, BUT NOT THE WHOLE ITALIAN PENINSULA (JUST 160 YEARS IN SICILY ISLAND!). So there is no black blood in Italy: repass history!!!!!!!
[edit] Physical Characteristics and stupid debates
Reading parts of this article and talk page really makes me feel sorry for Italians who have to put up with all this garbage. I don't know what is wrong with Americans and why they have developed all these racial myths about Italians, debating even their skin tone and color of their hair etc... This obsessive questioning of racial purity seems to be conveyed in American movies and media as well. Quite frankly it is not only a load of crap but quite embarassing and not fit for a supposedly serious encyclopedic project like wikipedia. There is a large Italian-American community in the US (no doubt the largest southern European population) and I can only assume that this is the reason for which they are targeted in such a way.
Population genetics and history is very interesting but it can be discussed seriously and without constantly bringing up recycled myths which reflect unresolved issues in American society.
Why are the "physical characteristics" of Italians discussed in the article? Whether northern italians are fairer or southern italians are darker... Which other "people" article discusses these things? This should be erased. --Burgas00 23:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree! The Ogre 00:37, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
- Why should be racist? Have you ever been in Italy? Northern Italians look very different from Southern Italians. This is a fact and was subject of many reputable anthropological studies (e.g. those of Luca Cavalli-Sforza or Renato Biasutti): try here. Why should be racist to write that? This is just a problem for people who think that having different skin colours means something more than just look different. Is maybe also racist to write that people in Congo have darker skin and hair than people in Sweden? --Fertuno 10:50, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry but you guys know nothing about Italy!!!! I agree with the original poster. There is no big difference between Sothern/Northern italians (and what about CENTRAL Italy??? why seems that everyone forget central Italy??????). You can find natural blond o fair people in the South. My best friend is a natural redhead with deep blue eyes and she is from Foggia, Apulia. Fertuno your comment about Sweden/Congo IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICOLOUS: You've talked about 2 different countries, one in the extreme north of Europe while the second in the deep central Africa!!! This has nothing to do with South/North Italy (SAME COUNTRY SAME RACE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD). And that anthropological studies are dated 1951!!!!!!! They are out-of-date for describing Italy in 2007. Loads of people from South emigrated into North and viceversa.
- Let's end this pointless discussion once and for all. Except for a few posters that seem to be on some sort of mission, we all agree that italians are not a homogeneous people and, as a result, there is no discernable, clear-cut difference between northern and southern Italians- only the frequency of certain physical characteristics tend to change from one end to the other (and from east to west in the north!). The "reputable" studies by Cavalli-Sforza are greatly flawed and, in any event, do not point to the conclusions implied by Fertuno above. Many in the north have classic "Mediterranean" features and complexions. It is also true that many in the south have classic "Germanic" or "Slavic" features and complexions. The same can be said for almost any south and/or western European country. Mariokempes 16:36, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
