Talk:Jèrriais
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[edit] Jèrriais Wikipedia
There is currently discussion of a creating a Jèrriais or Norman Wikipedia The Jade Knight 19:50, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
- Work is currently underway on a test Wikipedia in Norman, inclusive of Jèrriais. Contributions and comments welcome. Man vyi 14:20, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
- In case it's not obvious, a Norman Wikipedia has been created (nrm.wikipedia.org). The Jade Knight 08:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was don't move. —Nightstallion (?) 10:50, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Proposed move to Jersey Norman language
Apparently there are unambiguous and self-descriptive English names for this language. According to general WP policy, the article name should therefor be based on them.
I propose moving the article to "Jersey Norman language". The "Jersey" is self-descriptive and understood by many English speakers (unlike "Jèrriais" which is a French langauge term). The "Norman" part distinguishes it from the Jersey dialects of French and English, and also gives the reader a clue about the language's famous closest relative.
The "language" part is standard WP nomenclature, which is being implemented gradually for most other languages; its purpose is to clearly distinguish the language from a possible ethnic group "Jersey Norman people". By convention, the word is used in the technical linguistic sense, which includes creoles, dialects, variants, etc.. Jorge Stolfi 14:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Support for the reasons above. Jorge Stolfi 14:54, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose - it's such a minority usage (the statement in the article that "some prefer using the term "Jersey Norman"" should not be interpreted as "many prefer..."). Official usage in schools and by the States of Jersey is to use the autochthonous name for clarity. "Jersey language" is slightly more widely used, but still way below the native name "Jèrriais" (which incidentally is not French - the French name is "Jersiais"). There is no confusion with a possible ethnic group - English does not use "Jèrriais" to refer to Jersey people, but it does use it for the language. "Jèrriais (language)" might work, if a name change is absolutely unavoidable - but since there's no ambiguity, there scarcely seems any need. Man vyi 16:15, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose like it or not, the language is called Jèrriais, even in English, not "Jersey Norman language". By all means create a redirect page to assist users looking for this page, but I see no reason for the article to be moved. └UkPaolo/talk┐ 22:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose - I have never heard Jèrriais referred to as "Jersey Norman language", nor even as "Jersey Norman". "Jersey French" might make more sense, as that is the name it is commonly known by in English, but "Jèrriais" removes any ambiguity and therefore should stay. I can't see "Jersey Norman People" turning up as an ethnic group. 00:14, 9 March 2006 Mon Vier
- Neutral - Jèrriais is without question the more common—though it's a little bit harder for (non-local, at least) English speakers to get their mouths around. The Jade Knight 09:33, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- And we already have Jersey French as a disambig. Man vyi 06:56, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
[edit] Pronunciation
This article could use a pronunciation chart utilizing the IPA. Birt doesn't provide IPA, and it would be helpful to understand what sounds occur in the language (particularly for the vowels). The Jade Knight 08:38, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Jèrriais Vowels
I've gone and tried to figure out IPA equivalents for Jèrriais vowels. I know there's a lot of variety, but I'm trying to get at least a general or "standard" sense. The following chart is what I've come up with, but I'm not fluent in Jèrriais, and my IPA transcription skills aren't perfect, either, so I'd appreciate corrections if anyone has them:
- A quick check with Spence (1960) and Jones (2001) provides some clarification. Man vyi 12:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
- Mèrcie bein des fais. None of the sources I used had IPA, so I did some guessing. I'm actually not familiar with Spence, however. Which book is that? Also, where multiple pronunciations are given, such as dialectal variation, which would you recommend for someone learning the language off-island (does one reflect written materials more? Is one more common? Is one more accepted by young Jèrriais speakers? I made this chart for two reasons—for use on Wikipedia, and also to use as a teaching aide.) The Jade Knight 00:12, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Also, I notice that you've made some additions, but almost no deletions. If I've got anything entirely wrong, please remove it from the chart—it's difficult for me to tell if what you've added is another way the grapheme is pronounced, or a correction to what I had. The Jade Knight 00:14, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Spence's "Glossary of Jersey-French" (1960) is notated completely in IPA. What you had was mostly correct and just needs amplification to cover dialectal variation. I'll add some more tweaks when I have time. Written literature (especially 20th century) is mostly Western (most influentially St Ouënnais, with St Louorenchais and St Pierrais prominent as well). Teaching materials basically use a written form that is a generalised St Ouënnais (for example: méthe but not maiethon), but teachers are free to use pronunciations that are native and natural to themselves. The 2 CD-Roms are voiced by St Ouënnais. (I'm biased towards a Western accent, myself!) Man vyi 06:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks. Mind pointing out which dialects belong where, where it isn't already listed below, as well? The Jade Knight 06:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Spence's "Glossary of Jersey-French" (1960) is notated completely in IPA. What you had was mostly correct and just needs amplification to cover dialectal variation. I'll add some more tweaks when I have time. Written literature (especially 20th century) is mostly Western (most influentially St Ouënnais, with St Louorenchais and St Pierrais prominent as well). Teaching materials basically use a written form that is a generalised St Ouënnais (for example: méthe but not maiethon), but teachers are free to use pronunciations that are native and natural to themselves. The 2 CD-Roms are voiced by St Ouënnais. (I'm biased towards a Western accent, myself!) Man vyi 06:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
| Written Form | IPA pronunciation |
|---|---|
| a | /a/ |
| â | /ɑ:/ |
| é (-et, -er, è, -ai-, -ai) | /e/ or /ɛ/ (depending on dialect) |
| ée (-és, -ets, -ez, -aie, imp. & cond. endings -ait, -ais, -aient) | /e/ |
| ê (eî) | /ɛ:/ |
| è | /ɛ/ |
| ei | /æ/ or /ɛ/ |
| eu | /œ/ , in East /ø/ |
| eû | /œ:/ , in East /øy/ or /aj/, in North West /ɑ:/ |
| i, y | /i/; /ɪ/ when followed by -nne |
| î (-ie, -is, -i, -ix, -its) | /i:/ |
| o | /o/ |
| ô (-o, -os, (ê)au(x)) | /o:/ or frequently /o:w/ |
| oeu | as [eu], above. |
| ou | /u/. When [ou] precedes another vowel, it is a consonant (see above) |
| oû (-oue, -ous, ouz) | /u:/ (diphthong in East /o:w/ or /a:w/ per Jones) |
| u | /y/ |
| û | /y:/ |
| an or en | /ɑ̃/ |
| ân, an(C)s or en(C)s | /ɑ̃:/ |
| in | /ẽ/ (or /ĩ/) |
| în | /ẽ:/ (or /ĩ:/) |
| on | /õ/ or /ũ/ (depending on dialect) (Jones suggests /õw/ in East) |
| ôn, on(C)s | /õ:/ or /ũ:/ (depending on dialect) (Jones suggests /õ:w/ in East) |
| ain, ein, ien | /ɛ̃/ |
| un | /œ̃/ or /ũ/ (Spence and Jones go for /ø̃/) |
| un(C)s, eun(C)s | /œ̃:/ or /ũ:/ (Spence and Jones go for /ø̃:/) |
So, how close am I? (I might go grab Mari Jones' book from the library again some time to see if she gave any transcriptions) The Jade Knight 01:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
- As sources, I used the pronunciation guide at Les Pages Jèrriaises, Lé Jèrriais Pour Tous, the Dictionnaire Jersiais-Français, and my own perceptions from listening. The Jade Knight 01:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
