Talk:Janis Joplin

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I snipped this part:

While a moving performer and song stylist, she cannot really be considered a skillful singer.

Or are non-NPOV statements now allowed on artists' pages? - Montréalais

I considered changing it to "not often considered a technically skillful singer" or something. What would you suggest? --KQ

Compare her "Ball and Chain" to Big Mama Thornton's. Big Mama was no opera star, but she could hit the notes way better than Janis, and I'm sure Janis would agree. Making a judgement and violating NPOV are two different things. I changed it a little bit, but as I said in my comment, if you can call her a promiscuous speed freak, I don't know why you can't say she was not a technically skillful singer. Roger Daltrey and Robert Plant sing a lot alike, but Daltrey is a far more skilled singer and it has nothing to do with non-NPOV or who you like, it is a judgement based on evidence. (I know this causes difficulties when people have poor judgement, but so be it.) Ortolan88

Actually, "promiscuous" bothered me a bit, though that's what most of the books say (and why not, it was the 60s and 70s). Better of course would be to quantify, but, uh, ick. --KQ

200-1000; that is 200 women, 1000 men (about) according to "Scars of sweet paradise : the life and times of Janis Joplin / Alice Echols" Seniorsag 13:39, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Effective vocalists who can't sing much: Charles Aznavour, Yves Montand, Richard Harris, Rex Harrison, Lotte Lenya, Janis Joplin. Gene Autry sang better than any of them. Roy Rogers too. Ortolan88

You left out Bob Dylan and Tom Waits. :-) (both of whom I like quite a lot--and I listen to the Doors and Joplin on occasion too). --KQ

Janis Joplin couldn't sing worth a damn -- and she was no trailblazer for women. What crap. That text is gone. See my remarks below. deeceevoice 18:37, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How do we designate Janis Joplin??

Please answer this question based on how you understand it:

Male singers who have voices that sound like female singers are generally designated as either falsettos or castratos, depending on the technique being used. But, how about female singers who have voices that sound like male singers?? Do they have any special name?? 66.245.30.189 01:44, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I didn't know so I asked some of my more musically minded online friends. They concur the term is Contralto. Here on wiki it redirects to alto but some external links in case you want confirmation are [1] [2] JohnCub 16:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC) (with a little help from my friends.)

I would suspect that you are answering a different question. The above comments pertain strictly to the range of a voice and, naturally, most female voices have a higher range than most male voices. But the question here is what makes a woman's voice sound like a man's, not, how low a note can she reach? At issue here are more questions of timbre and even more so, singing style. These are more complex qualities, but I think the original questioner is hinting at more like these things. 66.108.4.183 04:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

[edit] Restoring external link

An anonymous user deleted this link: "Joplin Janis Lyn" in the Handbook of Texas Online complaining that it had "offensive, bigoted statements and the 'n' word." This University of Texas site reports offensive statements made about Janis, such as that she was a "nigger lover." It also reports that she's been called "the best white blues singer in American musical history." There's no reason we should try to protect readers from this site. I'm restoring the link. JamesMLane 11:53, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Maybe we should protect readers from ridiculous remarks like "the best white blues singer in American musical history". Jimmie Rodgers, Jack Teagarden, Elvis Presley, Carl Perkins, Emmett Miller, Hank Williams, Ella Mae Morse, Wanda Jackson, for starters, were all white, all American, all blues singers, all better than Janis Joplin. I know people idolize her, and my attempts to get some assessment of her scratchy, uncontrolled voice in this article have all failed, I loved her too, saw her live several times, bought all her records, felt bad about her tragic, wasted life, but golly folks, she really didn't sing all that well.

The trouble is "she really didn't sing all that well." is just as silly a sentence as the "best white blues singer in American musical history." Of all the technically great singers in the world, IMHO, none of them sang rock, or country, or blues. From a technical point of view, Hank Williams is just as horrible a singer as Janis. All that warble -- way too much vibrato, and a free and easy attitude toward hitting the notes. You could say the same about Billie Holiday, Elvis... Carl Perkins?!? For a singer, he was one hell of a guitar player. But they all moved you. (IMHO : the list of technically great singers who could still move you starts and ends at Ella Fitzgerald. On a good day, I may throw in Johnny Cash (who also has a claim on "best white blues singer".). Anyway, theres nothing wrong with external links to hagiography, as long as we don't endorse there silly opinions (or mine, for that matter). GWO 09:36, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I was just turning my crank. There's nothing wrong with "she didn't really sing all that well" on a talk page. I wouldn't put it in an article, but I do think that the article should somehow point out that she screeched, but I canm't seem to find any way to sneak it in there. The article about Billie Holiday attributes her creaky voice to hard living, but even as a young woman she had some definite mannerisms. It was a long time ago that Moms Mabley said of Billie, "She sings like her shoes hurt."

This is really a pretty insoluble problem, but without going to the extreme of saying that Ella Fitzgerald is the only pop singer with great technical skill (and a serious lack of emotional content), there is such a thing as technical skill at pop singing, and here we are talking about alleged blues singing skills. Not all those opera singers doing Gershwin songs cover themselves with glory, either. Anyway, I'm really just thinking out loud. Poor old Janis can rest in peace. I'll never tell (not in the article, anyway), unless I find a good quote. And to show what a nice guy I am, I won't even start in on Jim Morrison. Ortolan88 02:49, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Since when is Johnny Cash technically great? I love both him and Janis, but part of the real appeal of the two singers are that neither were great singers technically - they were great because of the rules they broke and the way they broke them. Their appeal lies partially in their lack of technical appeal. I don't really know anything about singing, but to my untrained ear, both had trouble staying on key and didn't have the purity of voice of "great" singers. Both had voices damaged by alcohol and cigarettes.Rmj12345 21:45, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

She got her effects in other ways, was a winner of a performer, a great name from the 60s, but go back and listen to those records, then listen to the worst Aretha Franklin record you can find and tell me which one's the singer. Ortolan88 23:55, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Amen to that. Joplin was terrible. deeceevoice 18:38, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Not that this will affect the main page, but as a singer I can tell you that Joplin IS technically gifted. Her range is extrodinary as is her vocal power, ability to emote and ability to hit the notes (occaisional missed notes are a mark not of her strengths as a singer, but of the extreme difficulty of some of her songs!) Rather than saying she is terrible I reccommend something less inflammatory- such as that her voice is "nuanced", "harsh" or "unpleasant". While she may not be as inoffensive as Doris Day, Joplin IS a stunningly talented vocalist. (Unsigned post.)

LOL. Uh-huh. And there are many who would disagree. Like most black folks, I couldn't stand to listen to her awful caterwalling. Vocal range without control is mere cacaphony extended over a broader array of "notes." She simply didn't have the pipes to do what she tried to do, which is sound like a black woman. deeceevoice 13:46, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Not to get into this argument too far, but I remember a friend of mine who was 'on' to operatic, the 'popular' was inferior,and the 'R&B' to ignore. I sat him down and forced him to listen to two JJ records, and he had to admit that his horizons had been to limited, there is more in vocal music and performance than opera. --Dumarest 19:25, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script", adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:59, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Now, ain't this some bulls***

"Although there were of course some exceptions, prior to Janis, there was arguably a tendency for solo female pop performers to be pigeonholed into to a few broadly-defined roles -- the gentle, guitar-strumming 'folkie' (e.g. Judy Collins, Joni Mitchell), the virginal 'pop goddess' (Doris Day, Rosemary Clooney) or the well-groomed chanteuse (Dusty Springfield, Diana Ross)."

What?

Typical. So, Janis Joplin pioneered her brash, gritty vocal delivery and stage persona? And Diana Ross was typical of black female performers, who were also sedate?

ROTFLMBAO.

Barry Gordy groomed his talent -- Diana Ross included -- to have crossover appeal, so white folks would accept them, buy their records and make him filthy rich. Guess what? It worked. He made the women prissy and nice, with the wigs and the gloves and the choreography -- even toning down the brashness of the vocals. He did that in a calculated fashion. There have been plenty of black women who were about being women -- not prissy ladies.

This text is typical cultural appropriation and outright historical inaccuracy. It's either deliberately disingenuous -- which I would prefer not to believe -- or written by someone young with a very limited appreciation of the history of blues, R&B and rock 'n' roll.

No. This woman Joplin -- who couldn't sing worth a damn -- studied female blues legends. And that means black women. Black women were not prissy and sedate, or guitar-strumming "folkies." Those were white women. Joplin got her music and her style from the same place/people her white, male counterparts did -- from black people, like (in rough chronological order): Ma Rainey, Bessie Smith, Sippie Wallace, Roberta Hunter, Big Mama Thornton, Etta James, Koko Taylor, Tina Turner -- and a whole litany of other black women (and men). And cain't nobody tell me any of these sistahs were prissy and sedate. They could belt it out better than anybody else -- and they could "sang" -- which, unfortunately, is something Joplin couldn't manage. She copied black vocal techniques and musical stylings as best she could manage and had the desire, but certainly not the pipes/equipment, not the talent. She sounded like a cat with its tail caught in a wringer. Black folks couldn't stand to hear her hollerin' and screechin'. She was worse than Michael Bolton.

She didn't blaze a trail for women; she didn't innovate jack. Black women did that. Did she blaze a trail for white women? Arguably, yes.

So don't try to rewrite history. Don't try to pass this crap off as truth. You'll get called on it every time. deeceevoice 18:32, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Joplin's singing style

I've reverted the text. Her style wasn't "idiosyncratic." It's taken straight from black vocal techniques (except, IMO she didn't have the talent to carry it off). Joplin was no different from thousands of blues/r&b singers. About "yowlish" -- that's not an inherently negative word. It is onomatopoetic and describes perfectly her delivery, and it's a common enough adjective when it comes to vocalized musical expression (see funk). And, yes, Joplin screamed. Just google "Joplin screaming," and you'll see this characterization of her vocal delivery expressed in positive and negative terms. Again, it's a common adjective used to describe the vocal delivery of lots of r&b and bluesmen and women. The delivery is what it is. deeceevoice 09:36, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed about the screaming. When I got into her back in high school, the scream was one of the main things my mother (who grew up in the sixties) remembered about her. Rmj12345 21:46, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overblown (and disingenuous) comparisons to Jimi Hendrix

I've returned to further modify the passage comparing Joplin to Hendrix -- which, frankly, is totally off the mark once one gets beyond their untimely deaths from illicit drug use. The passage made it appear that Hendrix's music and reputation have eclipsed those of Joplin only because he was more prolific. The fact of the matter is Hendrix always had a bigger following. His bluesy vocal talent was always more widely accepted -- not to mention the fact that he played one helluvah mean guitar, when the only instrument Joplin is really known for playing was her vocal chords; her musicianship was negligible. If I had my druthers, the passage would stop at the similarity in the way they died, because the comparison of their relative fame sounds like off-the-wall excuse-making/utter disingenuousness, and my attempt at balancing it sounds like sideways criticism. deeceevoice 06:51, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not here to argue, but she was a better vocalist than Hendrix. There where many similarities, the way they died, when they died, Thier music is similar and both are in The 27 Club.

Nor am I. However, the text as it was originally written made it appear that the only reason Joplin's star has dimmed more than has Hendrix's over the years was because of her more limited output, when there certainly are other factors to consider -- among them, talent (admittedly subjective perceptions but ones commonly held), fan base and virtuosity. I've already acknowledged the similarities in the circumstances of their deaths: drugs, youth -- but that's about where that ends. I simply worked to restore some balance and accuracy to the piece -- which it was sorely lacking w/regard to Hendrix and her legacy. Again, I frankly think the comparison between Hendrix & Joplin should end with their deaths from drug abuse while still relatively young. deeceevoice 12:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joplin's Sexuality

Like a lot of other people listed as "bisexual", this article contains no mention whatsoever of Joplin supposedly being bisexual.

I'm adding her back to the category. There are a number of references that exist on this subject:

[3]
[4]
[5]
"Going Down with Janis" a bio by Peggy Caserta
As well as a number of other biographies

My two cents from the best (POV) biography, does not dig to deep but mentions all sides.

Scars of sweet paradise : the life and times of Janis Joplin / Alice Echols

Seniorsag 13:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Discography?

I've noticed this is one of the only musician pages with no discography. Could some knowledgable people put together something? --70.231.169.127 02:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Dumarest 17:08, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weird non-sequitor in 'BB&tHC' section

The section starts out with: 'After a return to Port Arthur to recuperate', but there's nothing in the prior sections saying *what* she returned to PA to recuperate *from*.--Anchoress 16:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I changed the caption on the main picture, removing the phrase at her best to make it NPOV Ayreon

[edit] "who can forget..."

are comments like "Who can forget her appearance on the Dick Cavett show..." (the several hundreds of millions of people who have never seen it, for a start) and "who con't be touched by..." (con't?) reflective of npov?

[edit] Discography

Um...where's her discography? This is a major hole in this article.--Esprit15d 20:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

There was a discography, but for some reason someone found it necessary to remove it. Vihrea 04:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a discography back, but there is problems with it. I know of at least 3 CD issues named Pearl, one just duplicating the vinyl, one with additional tracks, one 2 disk with many additional tracks. I will uppdate the discography when i can have all 3 at hand. Seniorsag 15:44, 24 January 2007 (UTC) Uppdated Seniorsag 13:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Non-NPOV/Other Problems in Legacy Section

Shouldn't a section that describes someone as "pioneering" and "...pivotal in redefining what was possible for white female singers in mainstream American popular music" cite at least one source? Also, how can someone be "long overlooked" and yet continue to influence modern pop artists? Most modern pop artists at least sing on key, so the similarity is not self-evident. Also, comparisons and (unsubstantiated) reports of an affair with Jim Morrison, another "singer" whose talents are far from self-evident, does not constitute a legacy. And as stated above, to say that she is less popular than Hendrix because she put out fewer albums is speculative at best, probably closer to absurd. AllMusic.com states "amazingly, Hendrix would only record three fully conceived studio albums in his lifetime." Joplin on the other hand recorded two solo albums plus all her work with BB&HC which gives her a greater total output. The fact that she had fewer posthumous releases did not cause her to be less popular, it was because she was already less popular. Not to mention the fact that the phrase "she made a relatively small number of recordings during her career, and because she was not as prolific" is redundant. The fact is that Joplin couldn't sing or write songs and her influence was in attitude and style only-if that. This whole section seems scrapable to me. --Atripodi 06:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Amen to that! deeceevoice 14:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Is there a picture that isn't copyrighted that we can put of the top of the page? Onlyabititalian 16:30, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I see that the head picture is listed as release given by copyright holder, but see no proof of that. And the other image is of an album cover, but does not make the legalities for such use, it is use of the album cover to illustrate the subject, Joplin, not the album itself. I have been caught by that more than once. --Dumarest 20:22, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discography revisited

I put the original discography up a good while ago. It disappeared. I never noticed. Some months later another discography appeared. It in my opinion is incomplete. So I have edited, added missing items. Format is not consistent, I know that, and will fix [unless some kind editor will fix]. But, the new stuff has 'Live at Winterland '68 (1998, Columbia Legacy)' while I am aware of 'Live at Woodstock: August 19, 1969 - 1999'. Are they the same, or no? Anyone know? --Dumarest 20:02, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drug Use Timeline?

The Article states:

"Around this time her drug use began to increase, and she acquired a reputation as a "speed freak" and occasional heroin user. She also used other intoxicants. She was a heavy drinker throughout her career, and her trademark beverage was Southern Comfort."

Yet the article never states when her drug use began. Anyone have a reference to a timeframe of when Joplin began using drugs? Regards, Nautafoeda 06:24, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Different sources give different information but "Scars of sweet paradise : the life and times of Janis Joplin / Alice Echols" implies that she started in Texas (Maruana) but hard drugs started first with BB&THC. Some sources inmply that they went out and in in hevy Heroin use all the time although their stated policy was "NO Drugs". Sorry I cant check right now since the biography is out, will update when I can check. Seniorsag 13:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Back to the top image

Fine, I hate to do this, but I have been caught by 'illegal' images too often. The image at the top is said to be from the source http://www.officialjanis.com.

I have looked throughout that site, and cannot find it. And a Google image search finds more than one copy of this image, from various sources. Just copying from the web is not acceptable to Wiki as far as I know. I copy from the image page: "2. The image is readily available on the source website, and the further use of this image on Wikipedia is not believed to disadvantage the copyright holder.". Maybe so, but that does not make it a valid Wiki image. --Dumarest 22:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discography dates

Refer to http://www.officialjanis.com - several of the dates there do not agree with the dates in the discography in the article [which discs I in fact put up, from another site, I forget where]. Could somebody who is more knowledgeable than I look at this and rectify where needed the dates? By the way, item 10 in the 'official' list gives 1968 as the date, but all the other dates are sequential - is this a misprint for 1998?? --Dumarest 15:50, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Two quick things:

First, somehow someone has implanted "Some People Say she is fat!" at the top of a section entitled "Opinions", neither of which seems to reflect a serious attempt at providing actual information. I'm not going to fix it, but somebody should...

Second, who knew that Janis Joplin died of a marijuana overdose? Answer: no one, given that the notion is absurd. The edit page shows the correct "heroin" yet it displays as "marijuana." Again, I'm not fixing it, but it needs fixing.

[edit] Topobox image

I know, I know, I should not do this. BUT, I am learning [the hard way] about image legal stuff. That image is said to be, by permission, from the official JJ site, but I cannot find it on that site, and so the attribution may be invalid, and the image invalid for Wiki. --Dumarest 19:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] high school Class reunion

I remember it mentiond in "Scars of sweet paradise : the life and times of Janis Joplin / Alice Echols" but I do not have that avaible, when I have i will add source. Seniorsag 13:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Undo POV

"She was one of the most influential rocks singers of the 1960's and is widely considered to be the greatest female rock singer of all time."

That was what I removed. The issue has been argued again and again here. While I love her singing and her influence was considerable, that statement is beyond acceptable. --Dumarest 19:42, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV but not sure how to fix it

"Cultivating a rebellious manner that could be viewed as "liberated,"" sounds a bit judgemental and codescending to me. as if it says "could be viewed as liberated (if you were an idiot)". Is it even true that her rebellious manner was "cultivated"? I'm prepared to believe she was a phony hack, but you would have to cite some sources.

I don't know much about her life but this POV should either be cited or removed in my opinion - what do other people think? Cyclopsface 05:14, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Citation needed" tatoos

I entered that item, complete with citation - how did said citation get removed??? I have restored it. --Dumarest 15:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Videos Pictures

Someone should comment on the remarks made by Janis about BB+HC in the "Festival Express" movie.

There is a video of Janis & BB+HC performing at KQED San Francisco (PBS) , the boys seemed condescending towards her.

I've seen the video of Janis at the High School Reunion , but I can't now remember if the context was PBS documentary or a DVD. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.181.22.152 (talk) 13:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

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