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User talk:Kbdank71/Archive7 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

User talk:Kbdank71/Archive7

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

non-nude models

Re this nomination, I could be wrong, but I think Provelt was supporting my suggested change to category:Models in non-nude photography to avoid the possible confusion that it was just model who'd never posed nude. You should check to be sure, but I think that's where the nomination was headed. It doesn't matter too much to me, though.—Mike Selinker 01:45, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I thought I knew what he was getting at, that "support for the proposed name" meant the proposed name in the nomination, but now I'm not so sure. Do you want to run it by him to find out what he meant? --Kbdank71 03:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
I did mean to support the new suggested name of Category:Models in non-nude photography, however it doesn't matter much to me either. As is often the case, my only real agenda was getting it off the list. -- ProveIt (talk) 00:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Ouster by coup

Hi, I see you closed this category for deletion on 12th of August with no concensus, but I can't find any record of the discussion. Deletion seems right to me because, whatever the possible value of the category, Ouster by coup isn't correct English (I presume Ousted by coup was what was intended). Have you a link to the discussion? Thanks, Dlyons493 Talk

Sorry, don't know why I didn't link to the discussion. I usually do. Here it is. --Kbdank71 16:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, that was quick! I now see what was intended - one category for people who came into power by coup and another for people who lost power by coup. That makes sense certainly, but the two category names are not at all clear (and Ouster by coup isn't English!). There's also the point made that these may be overcategorisation - I tend to agree, but don't feel strongly about it. Under the circumstances I feel putting both into Category:Coups is the best solution - it seems difficult to find short meaningful and matched category names for the two concepts. I'm not sure how best to progress this (and won't have time anyway in the next week) - if you can suggest anything, I'll take this up again next week. Dlyons493 Talk 16:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The only thing I could think of would be a re-nomination, if you want to try that. --Kbdank71 16:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

CFD for MPs by Parliament

Hi kdbank71

I noticed that you closed the CFD on UK MPs by parliament with a result of delete.

I am surprised by this decision. I count the votes as being 16 to delete, 9 against, which is a long way from a consensus. Furthermore, the votes against deletion included most of the most active editors in the Category:British MPs, and three of those "keep" votes were "strong keep"s, which none of the "delete"s were. By my calaculations, that doesn't even add up to a supermajority.

May I ask you to reconsider?

(BTW, I'm away from home at the moment, so I may be slow to reply). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I gave my reasoning at Category talk:British MPs, but I'll recap here. The keep votes weren't keep votes, they were rename votes. However, nobody said what they wanted it renamed to, so I was started to delete until a proper name could be found. Nobody yet has taken up the torch on that, though, I see. A rename is just a delete and create (you can't move categories), so I was just basically doing the delete step and leaving the "create with new name" step to your group. I've removed the last few (most populated) from WP:CFD/W for now. --Kbdank71 10:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_August_15#More_critics_of_Bush

These cats were never deleted. Am I missing something? youngamerican (ahoy-hoy) 02:54, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

They are listed at WP:CFD/W, and will be deleted as admins work through the backlog. --Kbdank71 10:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_August_19#Accounting

Although you closed it as "Delete", this discussion didn't seem to reach a resolution: in particular, no-one responded to my suggestion of Category:Accounting (economics). Can I go ahead and create this? Also, I tagged this obvious nonsense Party rule of 1825 for speedy deletion, but nothing happened. Is this the kind of thing you deal with? Thanks in advance JQ 05:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I deleted it as a recreation of deleted content. You can create the new category if you like, but I can't guarantee people won't say the same thing. Accounting is essentially a synonym of accountancy.
I deleted the Party rule of 1825 for you. --Kbdank71 10:50, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've taken a look at the discussion at Talk:Accountancy and the outcome seems to have been exactly the opposite of what most people wanted. That is, the vast majority of Oppose votes took the view that Accountancy and Accounting are two different things and should have separate articles. Instead, the result was taken as a basis for deleting any article on Accounting and redirecting it to Accountancy. JQ 06:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to split hairs, but they were discussing the articles, not the categories. And the vast majority of oppose votes simply said oppose, they didn't say why. And, that poll was just to move one to the other; there wouldn't have been separate articles. --Kbdank71 10:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Categories

The categorization system is having growing pains. There seem to be several different view about what our category system should be; a way to browse, an index of articles, a classification system, and/or a database search tool. Each of these views leads editors to different conclusions about how categories should be populated, and many conflicts result. To deal with these problems, Rick Block and I have been working on a proposal to add the ability to create category intersections. We think our proposal will address these problems and add some very useful new features. We are asking editors concerned with categorizaton problems to take a look. We'd appreciate your feedback. Thanks. -- Samuel Wantman 05:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians interested in coin collecting or numismatics

Hi. I was in the Wikipedians interested in coin collecting or numismatics category. This was recently deleted, apparently. You changed my category to Wikipedians who collect coins. When you did this, you left the edit summary: "per WP:CFD 2006 Aug 16". I have looked through the Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 16 page, but I have not been able to find anything relevant to me. Could you please try and explain to me what happened? Also, do you know which category I should use for numismatics? RedvBlue 14:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this took me about an hour to figure out. Looks like User:Mike Selinker added the move to the working page without there being an actual discussion about it. [1] I'll ask him what happened, you might want to also. I'll also go ahead and revert the changes. Please accept my apology. --Kbdank71 15:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to thank you again for answering, and then taking action, after my query, especially considering you spent so much time on the issue. I would also like to ask whether this category should use {{popcatwithusers}}, as there are only two users in it. Thanks. RedvBlue 18:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

coin collecting

Sorry. I believe I tagged the category when I created the wave of category:wikipedians by interest, and I assumed it was just missed in the transfer over to the "Working" page, so I added it. I now realize that I failed to add it to the discussion when I created that entry. Won't happen again.--Mike Selinker 15:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

No problem, I figured it was an oversight from the way it was tagged. I wouldn't have noticed it myself if the fellow above hadn't come and asked about it. Thanks for the response. --Kbdank71 15:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Speaking of this group of nominations, what happened to these two categories that you closed?
category:Wikipedians that drive a Ford Crown Victoria to category:Wikipedians who drive Ford Crown Victorias
category:Wikipedians who own a Series Landrover to category:Wikipedians who drive Series Land Rovers

I can't find any trace of these categories anywhere. Any ideas?--Mike Selinker 15:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Neither of those two had any members, and I couldn't justify creating empty categories. If we get someone that wants to categorize themselves as such, the cats can always be created then. --Kbdank71 15:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
That's a very fine answer.--Mike Selinker 15:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for sorting this out. RedvBlue 15:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

cfd/w

I can help out later this evening too, assuming things aren't all cleared out there by then. Just can't do much at work. Syrthiss 18:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! --Kbdank71 18:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone help?

Hi. I'm coming to you with this question as you seem to be doing all the work at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Working for the last few days and I see that you are also an admin. I don't know what the typical backlog size is at the page, but if I am allowed to, I think that I could provide some help in trying to reduce it, if you would like. I have made just a bit over 1000 edits with AWB and I have some experience with Categories and CFDs, both as a participant and a nominator, but I am (obviously) not an admin. I understand that I would follow the instructions per "The result of the debate was...", and I think that I could handle emptying tasks and moves. I would want to see an example of one which was "listified" before I would try one of them. Also are the user categories controversial to where you want an admin doing them? Please let me know, as I think I would have some time available this evening and over the weekend as well to help out. --After Midnight 0001 17:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, thank you very much. Pretty much, if it's listed at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Working, it's just a move or empty (if it's anything else, I'd have done it when I closed the discussion). That said, I'd leave the Wikipedian categories were I you, as most of them deal with templates and null edits as well. But everything else is fair game. If you're using AWB, I'd use the edit summary to link to the page where the discussio is (per [[WP:CFD]] [[Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 19|2006 Aug 19]]), so people will know what you're doing. If you have any questions, just let me know. I'm not around on nights and weekends, though. --Kbdank71 17:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
OK. I took a crack at these. The "empties" were easy. For the "Moves", I did the equivalent of a copy/paste edit to create the new category - including all text and tree structure. My only real question is on the "Merges", I didn't know if the text and tree structure should be moved with these or not. Specifically, this could be an issue for the category tree of Category:United States Navy destroyer escorts to Category:Frigates and destroyer escorts of the United States Navy.
Yeah, for the merges, I just see if there is something that needs to go to the "merged-into" category, and if so, move that. One thing I forgot, in case you didn't know: The talk-pages should move also. I delete them if the content deals specifically with the to be deleted category name, or something. Hope that didn't confuse you further. Thanks for the help! --Kbdank71 13:09, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Happy to help. I did see the item in the instructions about moving the talk pages. Only one of them (Category talk:Computer and video games with multiple possible endings) had something on it and I moved it to the new cat. I'll see how many more I can get done over the weekend. I could probably go faster, but I am trying to stay at no more than 1 edit/20 seconds so I don't get in trouble for abusing the servers with AWB. BTW, I turn off all the other AWB "fixes" when I am doing these, so that the CFD clean-up is independent of any other editing. --After Midnight 0001 16:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I look at it this way: Using tabs, I can edit faster manually than AWB (which seems to be slower for some reason, I'm wondering if they wrote a pause into it), so I just let the thing rip. I also keep the other fixes on unless I'm working on user pages for the wikipedian cats. Of course, how you do it is up to you. I'm just saying I wouldn't worry about it. People like me are happy for the help, so I'm not going to be picky about it. --Kbdank71 16:25, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
My natural inclination is to keep the other fixes on, but didn't because I didn't know the protocol. I'll do it that way in the future, since I do like to clean up other stuff as well. The advice about the timing is also helpful, I will follow suit. And by the way, I am giving you license to be picky with me on anything you see fit; I believe that anything worth doing is worth doing well and am always open to constructive criticism. Thanks again. --After Midnight 0001 17:11, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Can you please zap Category talk:Computer and video games with multiple possible endings which is a redirect created when I moved one of the talk pages from one of the categories that I cleaned out yesterday? Thanks --After Midnight 0001 23:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Done, thanks! --Kbdank71 03:42, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
OK. Per your recommendation, I stayed away from the Wikipedian cats, but I did knock off 45 others. I would be happy to help again in the future, just let me know if I don't notice on my own, when you start to close some new discussions. Also, I did notice that 1 of the categories has already been recreated (which I assume you want to re-delete, it doesn't have to be re-listed, does it?) and another has had articles added to it (but not recreated - so I just removed it again with another edit summary). Please let me know if you want any other details on any of this. --After Midnight 0001 00:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
FYI, on the above item, I decided to remove the articles from the category again and then I tagged it with a db-repost. If that wasn't the right think to do, just let me know for future circumstances. --After Midnight 0001 15:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
(moving indent) Actually, I'm not too sure. True, recreation of deleted categories are eligible for deletion, but most people tend to renominate it with that as a reason. I wouldn't worry about this one, you're not bound to get too many complaints. --Kbdank71 15:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Hindu politicians

Hi Kbdank71, thanks for digging out the old cfd. I am just curious to know how you did it. Did you use a search string or was it done manually? Just trying to learn my way around here. Thanks. -- Lost(talk) 18:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Go to the category page, and click on "What links here" (on the left hand side of the page, under the "Go/Search" buttons). I just looked for an older CFD listing. --Kbdank71 18:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Aah!! Thanks :) -- Lost(talk) 18:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

CFD Closure

Hi There. I must dispute a CFD closure you made as no consensus: Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_August_15#Category:RS_500_songs. My argument was that the category is a copyright violation. 2 editors agreed with me. The creator of the category unsurprisingly spoke up in it's defence. One other person said it's a useful list, which it is but that's not the point. Given that the issue is copyright and not sheer force of numbers - and since consensus is not numerical - I believe this should have been deleted anyway. --kingboyk 17:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't close the discussion as "not a copyvio", I closed it as "no consensus". Regardless of whether or not it's a copyvio, there was not consensus to delete it. Not via numbers (3-2), nor via the arguments put forth. Simply calling something a copyvio doesn't make it so. User:2Pac had a very good point (which nobody disputed) in First of all, it is not a copyvio. Having the list on the site in its chronological order is, because it's an exact copy of a previously published text. But merely explaining that each song was featured on this list and proving it by grouping them together is not disruptive in any way. Showing the songs in a list of the same order, everyone agrees, is a copyvio. But the category is different than the list. There are no annotations, it's not in the same order, it's a grouping of songs.
That said, I'm not an expert. Can you give me proof that it is a copyvio? Something more substantial than How can it be any less of a copyvio recreating the list by way of a category? (which to me is simply conjecture, not proof) --Kbdank71 03:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I disagree on the call of no consensus on argument strength. 3 editors saying this is a copyright violation is sufficient to zap it (it only takes one admin to say so for speedy deletion as a copyvio to apply).
No matter though, as I've relisted it at the copyright problems page. Probably I should have listed it there in the first place :) Cheers. --kingboyk 08:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

User Switzerland

Hello Kbdank71, I have changed the white border in template:user Switzerland to a black one, thinking it to have been made by mistake. If this is not so, please accept I apologise and revert my latest edit. I am now going to make up this: template:user Swiss direct democracy. I am afraid I have some userboxes more than you like... PS Are you from Switzerland? Cheers, --Clamengh 13:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't create the userbox, I just made an edit to it. --Kbdank71 13:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Huddersfield

Hi! I have just spotted your changes to the Category:Huddersfield. I live there and I was wondering if there is any requirement for that specific category name, in view of there being another in existence which has a wider usage IE:- Category:Huddersfield and District. The article Huddersfield has listed on it most if not all of the local villages and hamlets within the area, which are mostly linked using the Category:Huddersfield and District? It seems to be something of a duplication of work to have two pages for the same location. Richard Harvey 00:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing that the person who nominated it at WP:CFD was unaware of the other category. You can certainly nominate the two for merging there if you'd like. It should sail through. --Kbdank71 20:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Closure instructions for French Open

Hello again. I was hoping that you could clarify the instructions for Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 23#French Open. Is it your intent that only Category:French Open (tennis) by year is created, or that the subcategories also be created per Choalbaton? (...and if so, what is the standard name for the subs?) --After Midnight 0001 02:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it was just for the cats listed at cfd/w. --Kbdank71 20:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet categories at DRV

My apologies for the impersonal nature of this message, but since you participated in the recent Sockpuppets of Outoftuneviolin discussion, I thought you might like to know that the categories are now at Deletion Review. This is not a solicitation of a specific response, as all participating users were notified, but your input would be appreciated. Thanks! - EurekaLott 00:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice, but all I did was slap a close notice on the discussion. I can see both sides of the issue, so I'll refrain from muddying the waters further. --Kbdank71 01:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes

Yes, you got it right. And yes, there is a definite chilling effect; I've gotten quite a few e-mails about this and common to most of them is a fear of expressing opposition to the desysopping in public. Everyking 04:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for taking care of CFD

Kris - I just wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your efforts in taking care of CFD. I think I've said it before, but this is generally a thankless task. So - THANKS. I'd buy you a beer, but I'm in Denver and as I recollect you're some place on the east coast. I'm actually physically in various spots like Newark's airport (and points somewhat south) occasionally. I really would buy you a beer sometime if we could work out a real-life meet sometime (gasp, shudder, actual contact with another human being, I'm .. not .. sure .. I .. can .. quite .. grasp .. the .. concept, .... it seems so intimate - Solaria lives!) -- Rick Block (talk) 04:15, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I can't quite bring myself to give you an LOL at this point, but it would in fact describe what I just did, so... LOL! Thanks for the thanks, or rather, you're quite welcome. I am in the great (if smallish) state of New Jersey, so let me know the next time you're coming through Newark International, and I'll take you up on that beer. --Kbdank71 10:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:List of Symphony Orchestras in the United States

Hello. Is there any reason for this to exist? Is this considered a CNR? I was going to list it for deletion, but wasn't sure if it should go to CfD or RfD. Thanks. --After Midnight 0001 23:03, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

That'd be a big fat no. Hard redirects don't work for categories, nor should a category be redirected to a non-category anyway. I've gone ahead and deleted it, chalking it up to common sense (I know, I'm shocked too :) --Kbdank71 02:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Alrighty, then. In that case, you may be interrested in taking a quick peek at the following: Category:List of concert halls, Category:List of conductors, Category:List of law schools in the United States, and Category:List of symphony orchestras in the United States. BTW, it looks like all of these and the one above were created by the same user Rossf18/RossF18. Regards --After Midnight 0001 03:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Done, done, done, and done. I was going to warn Rossf18, but it doesn't look like he has done anything like this again, and from reading his talk page, it looks to be more trouble than it's worth. --Kbdank71 03:27, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the assist!

I was serious in my offer to do the fixups. First time I've ever seen a item go through with no comments one way or the other! <G> Appreciate the help. Keep up the good work. // FrankB 15:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Already done! It wasn't that much work.  :) --Kbdank71 15:29, 12 September 2006 (UTC)


Email your address, and I'll send you a whole six-pack! Can't cost that much from Beantown! Name your poison! <G> (The irony is the Sisterlinks set all will need the {{Interwikitmp-grp}}s update anyway vice the blatant category... (Best guide, this table: Template: Interwikitmp-grps see also) Don't suppose you want to AWB update all TEN sister prjects? <g> Jes thought I'd ask! Hell, that'd be good for a case! But wait for the Meta:Communications committee to finish peeing in the system, now would be premature!) // FrankB 15:35, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

David Weber category

Just for the record, the rationale for keeping the category "David Weber books" but deleting "Films by Humphrey Bogart" (as random example) makes no sense, but at least now a precedent has been set with which I can argue for Film by actor categories to be kept. 23skidoo 17:27, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Makes perfect sense. David Weber's books are most likely written by one person, David Weber. Films by Humphrey Bogart are very likely to also fit into Films by Actor B, Films by Actress C, and Films by WhomeverElseActedInTheFilm. The cat list for the films will become insanely long. Hence, it's not the same, and a precedent has not been set. --Kbdank71 17:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Cats

Image:Youngkitten.JPG Q.v. Steve Block's talk page, thanks for your comments! >Radiant< 20:59, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

And here I thought Category:Living people was a huge cat... --Kbdank71 02:19, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Clarification

On this page, you said you didn't understand the nom. I presume it was about the Wikipedians by Wikiproject, since the rest was fairly straight forward.

Essentially:

The point is to retain the longer edit history.

I'll be happy to go through and deal with the other parts of the nom. (Since there were apparently no objections.) - jc37 01:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so assuming we're not going to keep the edit history (which isn't necessary when dealing with categories), we're basically looking at a merge category:Participants in WikiProjects to category:Wikipedians by WikiProject. Is that correct? I've gone ahead and switched the cat redirect. If the bot hasn't moved everything by morning, I'll list it at CFD/WU. --Kbdank71 02:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, though I'm surprised to hear that it's not important to retain page history.
I've edited the associated userboxes. As far as I know, all that remains are the page moves and a few stray individually placed cats (and probably some categorization through some userfied userboxes). Thanks for your help : ) - jc37 00:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

CfD: British Geograph project

Hi again Kris,
Just to let you know that the proposed new name for this category was amended to Category:Images of the Geograph British Isles project by the proposer (kingboyk) but it appears the move has taken place to the original nomination Category:Geograph British Isles images. Regards, David Kernow 22:26, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed. You might want to check with User:Betacommand, as it was their bot that made the change. I don't know why, if I recall correctly, I closed the discussion as a move to Category:Images of the Geograph British Isles project. --Kbdank71 23:28, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Have left this request on Betacommand's talk page. Regards, David 03:14, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
...and Betacommand's prompt reply, plus my acknowledgement:
that was my mistake Category:Geograph British Isles images was listed as the new cat but i se it is now striked out I will fix/ Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 03:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your prompt response!  Best wishes, David 03:23, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Fixed Betacommand (talk • contribs • Bot) 03:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

CfD template error message

I'm not sure you realize that the error message you added to this template now shows up in place of the template wherever "subst:" wasn't used and prevents the display of the remainder of the page. (I discovered this when trying to read the talk page for the template itself, which hadn't been "subst:'d" on the page—check out the earlier version of the page.) Don't know what the fix is other than going to all the pages that use the template and checking to be sure it's displaying instead of the error message. (Someone could probably create a robot to do this, but I have no idea who.) Thanks.—Chidom talk  00:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll check it out. --Kbdank71 01:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Looks like that was the only page (that I saw, anyway) that hadn't been subst'ed. I went through before I left work and subst'ed all of the categories that were tagged, and I think I got all of them. I'll continue to look, though. --Kbdank71 01:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians whose user pages have been vandalized

Can you direct me to the CFD on this, your deletion notes point to Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 30, but I don't see it there? — xaosflux Talk 21:20, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Are you looking for this: Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 1#Vandalised user pages ? --After Midnight 0001 21:32, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry about that, I must have linked to the wrong date. (Thanks for catching that, AM). --Kbdank71 04:00, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

CfD:Jews who converted to Christianity

Excuse me, but I have a question. You stated that the "consensus" for this was "delete." There were 3 "comments," 4 votes for "delete," and 2 votes for "keep." Immediately above that, though, on "CfD:Marvel Comics characters with super strength", where there were 2 "comments," 4 votes for "keep," and 2 votes for "delete," you said there was "no consensus." That seems like a disparity. If there was no consensus on the comic category, there should similarly have been no consensus on Jews who converted to Christianity. Please explain this disparity. It does not seem right. Clearly, there was "no consensus." 65.28.2.218 23:13, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

That would seem like a disparity, if consensus was gained simply by counting "votes", but it isn't. Consensus is determined by the discussion itself. So you can't compare it to a different discussion simply because it has the same number of "votes". (which, by the way, it doesn't. The Marvel Comics discussion had 5 keeps and 3 deletes. But again, I don't count votes.) --Kbdank71 04:10, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Obviously, though, there was no consensus from the discussion! How is your decision not arbitrary?? Is there some way that I can appeal your decision to a higher authority? 65.28.2.218 01:46, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
WP:DRV --Kbdank71 02:29, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

CFD/W

Well, it appears that the backlog issue has been resolved by the action to split off the Wikipedian cats. I'll still keep an eye on the page, and clear some out if it looks like things get stuck, but the bots seem to have it all well in hand now. If I can ever provide any future assistance, here or in some other activity, please feel free to contact me. --After Midnight 0001 02:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your help. I'll definitely holler if I need you again. --Kbdank71 10:28, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

-kineticists

I'm not certain if you noticed, but the discussion under "umbrakineticists", was actually the discussion for all the -kineticists. Though we all agreed that a name change needs to be made, I think we were still at a "non-concensus" stage of what the final names should be. Since Drinibot seems to already be making the changes, would it be easier to just relist? - jc37 16:26, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Dang, you know, I thought something looked snarky about that whole thing. Yeah, it would probably be better to relist. Make sure you reference the discussion I just closed, and you might want to put list all of the cats at once, with one new discussion (instead of one discussion per cat), if that makes sense. --Kbdank71 16:51, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Umbrella Nomination

Hello. I saw your question from the closing of Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 9#Category:List of Universities and Colleges in Tripura. Please note that it was not originally an umbrella nomination. David Kernow took my original separate nominations and combined them. I have no idea why he idea this, but I wasn't sure how to undo it without messing things up more and having to edit his "vote", so i just put the comment at the bottom of that discussion. The original nominations are here [2] and [3] and the first of those two links shows how it all looked originally. --After Midnight 0001 17:37, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I figured as much. My comment was more for whoever did it (not that I actually thought anyone would go back and read it...  :) --Kbdank71 17:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Paul plays 20 questions with Kris

[4]
"Hey Kris, the last cfd discussion for this category was withdrawn, what are you doing?" -Paul foord

"The category was already tagged with {{cfr}} [5], I was just subst'ing it[6]. I see the nomination was withdrawn but the {{cfr}} not removed, so I'll remove the notice from the category. Thanks for the heads up." -Kris

OK thanks -- Paul foord 11:55, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Don't substitute CFD templates!

You're breaking bots! If they're substituted, they won't work with pyWikipediaBot (which will automatically remove the CFD templates after the page source has been moved to the new category name). --Cyde Weys 15:05, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Read this. If you feel that reverting prior to discussion is best, then check my contribs, you have a LOT of reverting to do. --Kbdank71 15:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Argh, now I have hundreds more edits to rollback :-/ Did you consult anyone before doing all of this? Why is it necessary for these templates to be substituted, seeing as how they are removed as soon as the CFD is over anyway? --Cyde Weys 15:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read the link above. --Kbdank71 15:14, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The relevant lines from category.py that you may be interested in are as follows:

cfd_templates = {
    'en':['cfd', 'cfr', 'cfru', 'cfr-speedy', 'cfm', 'cfdu'],
    }

and in catlib.py:

            for regexName in cfdTemplates:
                matchcfd = re.compile(r"{{%s.*?}}" % regexName, re.IGNORECASE)
                newtext = matchcfd.sub('',newtext)

--Cyde Weys 15:18, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

?? --Kbdank71 15:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Those are lines of code that I wrote from pyWikipediaBot that handle the automation of all CFD templates (if I missed any from the list, please tell me what they are). This is part of what allows me to give Cydebot a huge list of hundreds of categories to handle and it does all of them automatically, including deleting old cats and moving over category text (without the CFD tags). All of this can be done entirely without human intervention. It's incredibly efficient and an order of magnitude less time-consuming than AWB. Unfortunately, it stops working when you start unnecessarily substituting all of the CFD templates. --Cyde Weys 15:27, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

To say I "unnecessarily" substituted the templates tells me you didn't read why it was done. Why don't you read the entire discussion, and maybe we can see if there is a way around this that will benefit everyone? --Kbdank71 15:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
It's unnecessary in the sense that there are better ways of tracking old forgotten CFD templates than doing it explicitly using a new category scheme. It's as simple as getting a list of all categories including these templates every week, and intersecting the sets over a three-week period to get a list of which have been listed for three or more weeks. No template substitution or extra categories are necessary. I can easily help write a bot to keep track of this if necessary. It will be very easy; just use the pyWikipediaBot what links here generator on all of the CFD templates, save the list, do it again in a week, take the intersection of the two lists, and flag everything still there, etc. By the third week the items in the list that have two flags are probably old enough that it indicates that they are forgotten. --Cyde Weys 17:17, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I can't add cfm1, cfd1, and cfr1 to be recognized by pyWikipediaBot as they are going to be substituted, not used in place. I'm guessing we should discourage their use, or delete them altogether, as they are not necessary according to the above scheme and their use will just mess up all of the people doing category work using pyWikipediaBot? --Cyde Weys 17:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

If substing isn't in the cards, might just want to edit them and unsubst the cfd, cfm, and cfr templates that they call. The cfd1, cfm1, and cfr1 templates are good because they call the original ones but add the correct date. When you're looking at a cat tagged with just {{cfd}}, you can only get to the discussion while the category is listed on the main CFD page (and only seven days worth are listed). Once it's no longer there, you can't get from the cat to the discussion. When cfd1 is used, it throws up cfd with a date, so when you want to get to the discussion, it loads the date subpage, not the main CFD page. That said, I don't really care one way or the other, as I don't have much call to get from the category to the discussion. I'm usually going the other way around. Other people might care, though. --Kbdank71 17:31, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
How would cfd1, cfm1, and cfr1 work though? I'm assuming you can't just put {{cfd1}} on a page; that way contains no information about the day/month. So what you'd have to do is substitute it ... and then you'd get long syntax on the category page that could no longer be removed automatically by bot and would have to be taken care of manually. Is this worth it? --Cyde Weys 17:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's something interesting:

python refcheck.py -namespace:14 -count cfd cfr cfru cfr-speedy cfm cfdu

Number of transclusions per template
------------------------------------
cfd: 101
cfr: 255
cfru: 7
cfr-speedy: 46
cfm: 36
cfdu: 74

A full list can easily be provided. Then, say, two weeks from now, find the intersection of the two lists and you have old orphaned templates that were forgotten. --Cyde Weys 17:56, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright you can find a full list here (generated by the command python refcheck.py -namespace:14 -list cfd cfr cfru cfr-speedy cfm cfdu). Bug me to do this again in two weeks or so and I can take the intersection of the two lists to find out what hasn't been dealt with in awhile. --Cyde Weys 18:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

For cfd1 to work, you need to subst it. When you do, it will load cfd with today's date, so the link in the template points people to the right discussion. Of course, I changed cfd1 to subst the cfd template, so it would work with the dated CFD category. I also added the error message so if cfd1 (or cfd, for that matter) isn't subst'ed, it'll give an error. Like I said, there is a lot of reverting to do, most importantly the templates, and most of it manually. I really wish you had chimed in earlier, but oh well; no sense in crying about it now. --Kbdank71 19:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
All of the reverting has been taken care of. As for these new CFD templates that require substitution: we need to have a discussion on them at CFD to determine if their usefulness (allowing direct links to subpages) outweighs their drawbacks (prevents automatic removal by bots). --Cyde Weys 19:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you're understanding how cfd1 works. If your bot checks for "cfd" and removes the template, it will work when cfd1 is subst'ed. When a user adds {{subst:cfd1}} to a category and saves it, what's left is {{cfd|20 September 2006}}. cfd1 needs to be substed so the date doesn't change everytime the category is edited. --Kbdank71 19:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict):Yeah, that's the thing. I'm not going to remember to bug you about this in two weeks. That's why the CFD yyyy-mm thing was nice, it was totally automatic. Once the last day of the month was closed and the categories taken care of, just go to the yyyy-mm cat and whatever was left needed to be listed. That I could remember, because every category listed at CFD would be in it, so it was a constant reminder. It's a shame we can't just have your bot find the first and last lines of a subst'ed template and ignore what was between them... Eh, in the long run, it doesn't matter that much. I've been closing CFD for about a year and 1/2, and there hasn't been a way to reconcile things in all that time. --Kbdank71 19:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

An "error" flag needs to be built into templates that should always use subst or should never use subst. (See {{Afd}}.) According to my reading of Wikipedia:Template namespace#Dynamic or subst, subst should always be used for the {{cfd}} templates (as it is for {{Afd}}):

"As a guideline, short temporal messages that will be removed soon should be copied using subst (which has the advantage of showing the message in the wiki source), and standard notices that might remain on a page for months or forever should be transcluded for easy updating."

Knowing nothing about bots, I'm unsure why the bot can't be written to accommodate using subst, but doing so would be in line with the guidelines and avoid yet another exception to remember when editing. (I find it difficult enough to remember to use subst for the temporal templates as it is.) Failing that, the templates themselves need to include an error message calling attention to the fact that they should never use subst.—Chidom talk 04:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Why would you want to subst a template that is only on a page for a short time? It's a lot easier to just remove {{cfd}} when you're done than remove a whole bunch of separate text. --Cyde Weys 04:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Read this entire section for why. As for ease, I can tell you from my standpoint, they're both the same. Whether it's click-drag-delete key to get rid of {{cfd}} or click-drag-delete key to get rid of the subst'ed text, it's the same action and amount of time. Only from your bot's POV is it easier to remove. As for error messages, Chidom, do what you will. I thought doing this was a good idea, but I've been told I was wrong, so now, I could care less if the templates are subst'ed or not. --Kbdank71 10:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The Wikipedia guideline says that templates that are on a page for only a short time should use subst, it's not a matter of my preference, nor do I necessarily agree with the guideline. I personally don't care which way it's done, it just needs to be obvious which way to do it. As for which is easier to remove, I realize that bots make maintenance easier, but other editors who use {{cfd}}, etc. aren't going to necessarily see this discussion, so the bot as it is now written will sometimes break anyway. If the bot is to be used without errors, some combination of the following needs to happen:

  1. change the bot so it is capable of removing the templates that use subst as well as those that don't (which may involve changing the templates to include unique starting and ending text for the bot to work with; or
  2. change the templates so that it's clear to anyone that subst shouldn't be used

I'm not trying to create an issue here; I reverted someone's edit who removed the subst and was directed here when they reverted my reversion. I don't have the skills to do either, or I would just do it.—Chidom talk 15:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The way it's currently working is cfd1, cfm1, cfr1, need to be subst'ed. cfd, cfm, cfr do not. --Kbdank71 15:38, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a new idea regarding substitution that I am going to be posting to the CFD talk page shortly. I would appreciate your comments. --Cyde Weys 17:15, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

For convenience, that is located at Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion#Here's how we can handle CFD template substitution . (Didn't want to change your earlier post to add the link.)—Chidom talk 19:20, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of Cruisers of Austria-Hungary

I have to protest your deletion of this category. There was one vote for merge, plus the nom's implicit vote, and one vote for keep separate, which hardly seems like consensus; the category was never tagged for deletion so nobody who was watching the cat could have been notified. I would have had to have been watching CFD in order to know about this. According to current WP:SHIPS categorization policy, Cruisers of Austra-Hungary should have been kept, as it fits into the very complete Category:Ships by country structure. TomTheHand 14:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

CFD Query:

Hi,

you recently changed Category:Gaelic Athletic Association clubs in Derry to Category:Gaelic Athletic Association clubs in Londonderry.

I believe this was a mistake for a number of reasons.

1) There were seven votes to keep it and only four votes to rename, now I realise that consensus isn't soley based on this, but there still was almost twice as many votes to keep than there were to rename, and this should be seriously taken into consideration.

2) The category has to do with the Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA). 99.9% of people associated with the GAA in County Derry and the rest of Ireland would refer to the county as Derry, in fact the county's team at all ages levels is referred to as "Derry" and not "Londonderry". The county's administartion body is called the "Derry GAA, not "LOndonderry GAA". The county football championship is called the Derry Senior Club Football Championship, not the "Londonderry Senior Club Football Championship". The county hurling championship is called the Derry Senior Club Hurling Championship, not the "Londonderry Senior Club Hurling Championship". Everything concerned with the GAA in County Derry is know as "Derry" as opposed to "Londonderry".

3) This article has to do with the GAA clubs in County Derry. Here* is a list of GAA Club websites in the county. Click on any of the links somewhere on each club's website there will be a mention of what county the club is in....I can categorically guarentee that every last one of them will refer to "Derry" and not "Londonderry".

4) The category is a sub-category of Category:Gaelic Athletic Association clubs. People interested in obtaining clubs in the county will invaribly look under "D" for "Derry", they wouldn't dream of looking under "L" for "Londonderry".

5) The majority of people in the county, regardless of involvement in GAA refer to the county as"Derry" and not "LOndonderry"

  • You'll have to Select "Club Scene" at the top, followed by "Club websites".

Looking forward to hearing your opinions. (Derry Boi 15:26, 21 September 2006 (UTC))


The change was to the descriptor of where it is, not to the name of the association. The change was not from "Derry GAA" to "Londonderry GAA". It was simply from "in Derry" to "in Londonderry." Also, the article Derry GAA states, "Derry GAA is one of the 32 county boards of the GAA in Ireland, and is responsible for Gaelic Games in County Londonderry". Finally, WP:IMOS states to use Londonderry. That was the basis for my decision. --Kbdank71 15:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
A possible compromise should be reacehd whereby we call it Category:Gaelic Athletic Association clubs in County Derry/Londonderry?

What are your feelings on this? (Derry Boi 15:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC))

Actually, I don't have a preference either way. I was just the closer. It seems like a good idea to me, though. You might want to run it by a few of the people who expressed opinions in the discussion via the category's talk page, and if they don't have a problem with it either, it can be renominated and sail through. --Kbdank71 15:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Shapeshifting

I think there was a confusion [7]. "Reverse merge and cleanup" was/is the same as "keep separate and cleanup", in this case. Is this undo-able? Or do we need to relist again? - jc37 15:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps there was. "Reverse merge" is definitely different than "keep". But as there wasn't consensus either way, there really isn't anything to undo. If you're looking for a specific outcome, I'd suggest renomination. --Kbdank71 15:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Derry GAA

Can you explain you why you decided to rename Category:Gaelic_Athletic_Association_clubs_in_Derry see the discussion here Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_September_10#Category:Gaelic_Athletic_Association_clubs_in_Derry (Gnevin 17:19, 21 September 2006 (UTC))

Already did. Look up two sections. --Kbdank71 17:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Owe sorry didnt see it (Gnevin 17:24, 21 September 2006 (UTC))
No problem. :) --Kbdank71 17:35, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Emmm... on what basis did you close it as a rename, when those expressing an opinion went 7 to 4 against? This seems to me to be just plain wrong. Palmiro | Talk 20:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, look up two sections. --Kbdank71 20:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but you have given your view as to why it should be renamed. That's OK, you're entitled to your view. What you haven't given is an explanation for closing the discussion in the opposite way to the consensus. Your job as an admin closing a CfD is to implement consensus, using your discretion in assessing the weight of the various arguments. But the a 60:40 majority has long been accepted as equivalent to consensus in deletion debates, and here you went against a 65:35 majority. That seems to be going far beyond the closing admin's discretion; if the discussion was to be determined purely at the discretion of the closing admin, we wouldn't be having CfD debate to begin with. I would suggest that you reopen the debate, or perhaps ask another uninvolved (and preferably neither Irish nor British) admin to review your decision. Palmiro | Talk 20:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
using your discretion in assessing the weight of the various arguments Exactly. I gave more weight to the nominator's arguments. As has been pointed out, the category is describing a location, not the name of the Derry GAA. None of the objectors responded to that. Consensus means discussing to come up with a solution. It doesn't mean a quick fly-by to say, "Yeah, I agree with him" and nothing else. As such, I gave less weight to the "What he said" group. Finally, I don't have a view on whether or not it should be renamed, kept, or deleted. I'm not English or Irish. I close discussions with a neutral eye. As such, I stand by my decision. --Kbdank71 21:04, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I can't say I agree with your rather dismissive approach to the votes of various people. Users familiar with a particular subject area may well find that another user has expressed the strongest arguments, and on the basis of their knowledge and experience agree with him. In fact, experienced contributors doing so is a good indication that a strong argument has been given and that there's a good deal of consensus around it. Of course, it can also in some cases be indicative of voting along party lines and vote-stacking (which certainly wasn't the main feature here), but such votes shouldn't simply be discounted. Palmiro | Talk 21:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Well then, we're in agreement. Nobody's opinion should be discounted. --Kbdank71 02:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Companies based in Orange County, California

You determined that this category was a keep. Since all the comments said delete, was this an error?—Chidom talk 15:27, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

No. All of the comments said oppose (not delete). The nomination was for a rename. Hence, the keep. --Kbdank71 15:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't read it closely enough. My error (don't have to be an admin to be human!). Thanks.—Chidom talk 14:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem at all. --Kbdank71 16:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Category:Fauna by country

You closed this discussion with "Relisted here, because the subcats were not tagged.". Since the subcats still aren't tagged, the result of the relisted discussion will apparently be the same unless they are. There are 133 subcats on the main page alone; with who knows how many subcats under those. Without a bot, it would be impossible to tag every subcat. Why should this be done, where is the instruction to do so, and how is it to be accomplished? Part of what {{cfd}} states is: "This nomination is part of a discussion of several related categories". (emphasis mine) That seems to be saying that all the subcats are included in the deletion discussion.—Chidom talk 15:36, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

If nobody goes and tags the cats, then yes, the outcome will be the same in seven days, and if I'm the closer, I'll just close it without relisting it. The reason for tagging every cat that is nominated is because people may be interested in "Fauna in Country X", but not any other country. If the only cat that's tagged is "Fauna by country", that person will be pretty pissed off when, with no warning, the cat he was watching simply disappears. And then I'll have to explain why it's been deleted. They're not going to buy the excuse, "But Chidom didn't want to tag the subcats." As for the "several related categories", that's probably for an umbrella nomination. Instead of having each category have it's own heading on WP:CFD, you have one heading (the umbrella), and then simply list the related categories. It makes for one discussion for all of the cats under the umbrella, instead of one discussion for each category. But regardless, each category needs to be tagged so people know about it. That's why it's been relisted. --Kbdank71 15:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

- I've tagged the first-level subcategories and added comments on the Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion and Wikipedia talk: Category deletion policy pages (it's the same comment on both pages). I'm not really clear on what happens if a category is deleted. If it still shows as a red link on the article page and someone was monitoring the subcategory, could they easily ask that the subcategory be re-created?
- If the sub-subcategories and sub-sub-subcategories, etc. need to be tagged as well, I give up. I'm not going to do that, and I suspect that no one else will either, so you might as well close the discussion and note that "procedure wasn't followed" or whatever. This is absolutely ludicrous. As are the categories that I've nominated.
- I also still don't understand the difference between an umbrella nomination and marking each of the subcategories of a nominated category.
- Just by the way, you didn't identify where the policy is regarding tagging subcategories; I'd still be interested in where the procedure is explained.—Chidom talk 19:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no separate policy. The policy is if you want to nominate a category for deletion, it needs to be tagged. We don't need a different policy that states if you want to nominate five categories for deletion, you need to tag all five. Or ten, or twenty. Or 133. As for the difference between an umbrella nomination and marking each of the subcategories of a nominated category, that's apples and oranges. One has to do with how they are listed at CFD, the other has to do with tagging a nomination.
Exactly how many categories do you want to nominate for deletion? Because EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THEM NEEDS TO BE TAGGED. 1, 10, 1000. If you are only nominating fauna by country and the direct subcats, then I suspect you're done. But if you want to delete more cats, then you still have tagging to do. I don't know how else to explain this.
As for what happens when a category is deleted, someone has to edit each and every article and subcategory and remove the category, so it doesn't show as a redlink when deleted. --Kbdank71 19:44, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, with all due respect, I think I'm going to exit this discussion. I've tried to explain why every category needs to be tagged, and I guess I'm just doing a poor job. Please accept my apologies for that. As you know, this same discussion is happening over at Wikipedia talk:Categories for discussion. Hopefully someone can explain it in a way you can understand. --Kbdank71 20:02, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Hope you don't mind my butting in - I've attempted to clarify the "howto" text on WP:CFD, suggesting the CFD talk page can be used to ask for tagging help (I think user:pearle can do this, and probably various other bots as well). The discussion may continue at WP:CFD (mostly for anyone else watching this page - I know Kris watches CFD :) ). -- Rick Block (talk) 00:20, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your patience with me—by jingies, I think I finally got it! (Although nobody better be touchin' my user pages). The Readers' Digest Condensed version of what caused the "Eureka!" is that for purposes of deletion, there is no difference between a category and a subcategory: they are both categories. Therefore, subcategories have to be treated as though they are separate categories. Right??—Chidom talk

Exactly. :) --Kbdank71 10:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 14#Category:Louis Brandeis

Hello. I was about to ask you about why you closed this as Delete, and then I noticed that it looks like you processed it as a Keep (did not put on WP:CFD/W and removed the tag from the cat). Can you please check this out? Thanks. --After Midnight 0001 03:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Nice catch. Yes, it was supposed to be a keep. The explanation is simple: I have several templates in a text file so I don't have to type in merge/rename as nominated, delete, no consensus. But because overall there are very few keeps, I don't have a template for that; I just copy the delete one in and change "delete" to "keep". I forgot to do that this time. It's fixed now. Thanks for the heads up. :) --Kbdank71 16:15, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I figured that it was something of that sort. I really have enjoyed working on some things with you. I have learned quite a bit and you've always seemed very resonable in your responses. Thanks again. --After Midnight 0001 16:31, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

May I ask for your assistance, please?

I have now been characterized as "psychotic" by another user at User talk:Rebecca#Psychotic category deletion nominator and "stupid" by a sysop at User talk:Merbabu#Category:Fauna of Indonesia. I've posted objections on the sysop's talk page and on my talk page (where there is an ongoing debate with Merbabu); I'm really disappointed that someone who holds sysop status is this insensitive. Judging by another comment on her talk page, this apparently isn't an unusual occurence. I don't know what the procedure is to lodge a complaint with a higher authority with regard to sysop/admin behavior. While I may or may not do so in this case, I'd like to know where to find the information. Thanks.—Chidom talk 07:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Not to split hairs on this, but it was the nomination that was called stupid, not you. However, I understand that may reflect on you. If you want to resolve this, first you should probably read WP:DR. That will lay out almost all of your options. You could also check with Wikipedia:Association of Members' Advocates, they help people out with disputes (I'm not that good at it myself). You also might want to read Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents, where you can actually lodge a complaint against an admin (not exactly formal, though, it's more to have other admins help out if they can). In this case, it looks like Rebecca has violated WP:CIVIL and possibly WP:BITE. I don't have much if any interaction with her, but from reading her talk page, she seems to have a serious incivility problem. The WP:AMA or WP:ANI should be able to help with this. Good luck! --Kbdank71 10:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Cats

Please stop mixing up the animal rights and animal liberation movement categories. You are undoing hours of work! They have already been separated in response to the CfD vote. SlimVirgin (talk) 14:36, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The consensus at cfd was a merging of the two categories. [8] If you would like to take this to WP:DRV, I'll hold of completing the move. Please let me know what you would like to do. --Kbdank71 14:40, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Please read what it says. The proposal was either to rename the cat OR to create a separate Animal rights cat and to separate the articles into two. The latter was therefore done. You are now undoing all that work, and you'll continue to be reverted. SlimVirgin (talk) 14:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Please undo what you have done. You've created a complete dog's breakfast. There are TWO categories. One is Animal liberation movement (the activists, the groups, the campaigns). The second is the more general Animal rights category (the topics, the concepts). You're mixing them up into one. SlimVirgin (talk) 14:58, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I have read what it says. The "latter" was done, as Grutness pointed out to you, out of process. I also read what the other participants said. You are not consensus. Consensus was to merge. I'll say this again: If you, the only one who wanted to keep, don't like the outcome, take it to WP:DRV. If I see it show up there, I will hold off completing the move. Cease reverting the merge, or you will be blocked. --Kbdank71 15:07, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Do not threaten to block me or anyone else in this situation. I have no idea what you mean about Grutness pointing out that something was done out of process. It was Grutness who suggested it! There is an Animal rights wikiproject. If you want to change something, go there to ask/inform people, and do not do it unilaterally. Grutness suggested the cats be split into two. Therefore, that was done. Now you are undoing it. There's no point in undoing it, because there are too many articles for one category. If you lump them all together, all that will happen is someone else will come along in a couple of weeks and recreate the other cat.
The important point here is that you're undoing hours of hard work and being belligerent and threatening when someone asks you politely to stop. This is meant to be a collaborative project, not one step forward, two steps back. SlimVirgin (talk) 15:33, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I made two suggestions for this category - either create second one (which you did before discussion was complete, i.e., out of process) If you want a diff I can provide one. If you would like to take this to WP:DRV, I'll hold of completing the move. Please let me know what you would like to do. How was that belligerent? threatening when someone asks you politely to stop How is unilaterally reverting a merge polite? Seriously, how hard is it to go to DRV and ask for a review? YOU are going against consensus. YOU are the only one who wanted to keep. I gave you an alternative to an edit-war, no less than three times. Yet you continue to revert. If this is a collaboratove project, get your collaborators to DRV and get the CFD overturned. Otherwise, last time, stop. --Kbdank71 15:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I see it's been listed at DRV. Thank you. I'll wait for that discussion to conclude. --Kbdank71 15:48, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
This is as clear an example of process over product as I have ever seen. These categories were not easy to split up, because it's often not obvious who is part of the movement and who is not, because it's a fluid thing, not everyone agrees on the definition or how their own role should be described etc. So the split constituted hours of work, and I was following Grutness's second suggestion (Grutness, who filed the Cfd), which was: " ... either (1) this category needs to be renamed (i.e., reversing the category redirect) or (2) it needs to be re-sorted as a subcategory of a new Cat:Animal rights, with items not directly relating to the animal liberation movement moved to the parent category."
Had either (a) Grutness just asked me to do this instead of taking it to CfD and/or (b) you told me what was going on before wading in to merge, then the lost hours of work could have been avoided. In other words, this has been handled irrationally. Irrational behavior is not a good thing, regardless of context.
Also, it helps to know something about a topic before wading in to decide how it should be categorized. The wikiproject is there to help with issues like this, where people may not be fully informed. Therefore, it would have been sensible, not to mention polite, to have informed them.
But above all, your threat to block someone is completely out of order, and I request that you not throw around threats to block — especially established editors and admins — again so lightly in future. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
If you would rather have product over process, then do something about the process. We have a process for deleting/merging categories, and so far, you haven't shown why it should be ignored in this case. Because it was not easy to split up? That's not a reason.
Fact is, Grutness DID take it to CFD, and the consensus was it be merged. How does it benefit the encyclopedia to ingore process in this situation? You know how CFD works. We don't make suggestions and immediately act on it. Why would you possibly think you could just jump in and unilaterally make a decision like you did?
Concerning irrational behavior, please don't lecture me. My behavior was the same as it has been in the year 1/2 I've been closing CFD. I determine consensus, I close the discussion, I make the change. What is irrational about that?
As for the block warning, are you above everyone else? If an anon comes along and recreates an AFD deleted article, gets warned not to do so, does it again, will that person not get blocked? What makes you think you are different? Because you are an admin? Please. We, as admins, are entrusted to clean up, delete, block, protect. Being an admin doesn't give us the rights to make unilateral decisions and go against consensus. We get no free pass, no special treatment. I've blocked others for the same thing you were doing this morning, and I expect to do it again. The fact that I threatened to block an admin means nothing to me. Admins, of all people, should know better.
That all said, it already looks like the DRV is going well for you. Honestly, that's all I wanted, since yesterday when I learned the merge had stopped. --Kbdank71 21:03, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
That's exactly what I mean by process over product. You wrote: "We don't make suggestions and immediately act on it. Why would you possibly think you could just jump in and unilaterally make a decision like you did?" I used my educated, adult, well-informed commonsense. Grutness and I agreed that two cats were fine. No one else seemed to care, and we need two cats because there are too many articles for one category. Therefore I created a second one. That that decision has to be subject to yet another vote, even though you actually don't care one way or the other, and the doing and undoing of hours of work is .... extremely sad. One wonders whether they have these discussions at the Encycopaedia Britannica. "How dare you use your education and commonsense to make a decision? Outrageous!" SlimVirgin (talk) 22:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I should add that I don't mean to keep going on at you personally. I just get tired of the amount of time that gets wasted trying to achieve the simplest thing around here. That's not your fault, of course. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I have no problem with common sense, but I think people around here use that excuse for doing what they want far too often. Process is not a bad thing. Should it be ignored? Sometimes, yes. I didn't think this was one of those times. --Kbdank71 01:15, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Famous animals Categories

Hello. I keep looking at this category (Category:Famous animals) and all the subcats wondering if they should be {{cfr}}'ed. In general, I don't like categories beginning Famous.... or Notable.... but I am struggling to think of the appropriate description for these categories that doesn't use the word famous. As an example, I don't think that all the "Famous bears" should be dumped directly into "Bears". "Named Bears/Animals" or "Bears/Animals known by name" perhaps? Of course, not all the animals in these categories actually have names.... I was wondering, do you have any ideas, or do you think that this should be "the exception that proves the role"? If we can come up with a new name, I'm happy to do all the tagging and listing, btw. --After Midnight 0001 18:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Ugh. Nuke them all. From space. With prejudice. I have absolutely no problem dumping the "famous" tag, but you're right: Cat:famous foos don't belong in Cat:foos. And unfortunately I can't think of a single other cat they could possibly fall into. A list, perhaps? List of foo in popular culture (which can go into Cat:Bears), maybe? I really hate using "famous", but without a good alternative, it may need to stay for awhile. Also, read this. You might want to wait awhile anyway, just to avoid any fallout from that. I guess bottom line, I'd support listifying the whole lot, but I don't know who else would. --Kbdank71 20:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
OMG - I saw that he was working on am umbrella, but had pretty much ignored it all since I had voted in the first go-round, and I saw that you copied all of the previous votes/comments to the relist. I didn't realize that it got so huge, what a mess that all looks like. It does look like it will be best to let things lie for a bit, but later, when things settle down, I will probably go for a listify of the "Famous animal" cats. --After Midnight 0001 01:06, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Back to the umbrella-nom from hell.... I can't read through all of that mess on the CfD and talk pages, but I think that there is a critical misunderstanding that occurred (or maybe I am not reading things right). It looks like the nominator was of the understanding that he had to nominate all of the subcats for deletion, even if he didn't want to have them deleted, just because he nominated the parent. Am I not correct that he was only required to tag the categories in some fashion, not necessarily with a cfd specifically? Couldn't he have instead used "cfdnotice" to tag the subcats and then point them to the discussion without deleting them? He seems to think that the subcategories will break if the parent is removed, but if they are all children of other parents as well, they will just have one less parent and no problem. Reading some of his comments, I think that he only really wants to delete the parent and some of the children, but thinks that he is "forced by process" to delete them all, instead of letting them just have one less parent. Am I missing something? --After Midnight 0001 01:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I think he finally got it, although "got it" just means he understands that a subcategory still counts as a category when it comes to tagging (I tried above to explain it to him and failed miserably). So yes, if he wanted to nominate the supercategory and all subcats, he'd have to tag them all with the cfd/m/r notice. I'm fairly certain that's what he wanted to do (nominate the subcats also). At least I hope that's what he wanted to do. If all he wanted to do was delete Fauna by country, I've made a grave mistake. I can't see keeping Fauna by foo if there is no Fauna by country to keep them in, so I'm probably ok. I haven't checked the discussion since Monday, but even then it looked like the best he could hope for was a no consensus, and so I'll get stuck removing all the tags. Sometimes I just shoot myself in the foot. :) --Kbdank71 01:24, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I just took another look at it. Strike that, it'll be a keep. Jeez, what a mess. --Kbdank71 01:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
If you need help with the clean-up, let me know. I think you know I have AWB (although not bot status). --After Midnight 0001 04:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

RfA

Hi
You are one of 16 editors who I decided to infrom about my request for adminship, which is now in its second day.
Why 16? I don't know, I just like the number. Though it was tough only selecting 16. : )
Why you? Well, you are someone who I feel might offer a thoughtful/insightful opinion, based on what I have witnessed of you previously.
I place no expectation on your response.
Thank you in advance for any effort involved (such as going through my contribution list, and even just taking the time to read and post).
In any case: Have a great day! : ) - jc37 14:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You have my support, although from reading the rfa, it's doubtful it will pass. My suggestion to you is if it doesn't, wait about six months before trying again. And don't let it bother you. The rfa process has gotten so screwed up, it's almost impossible to have a good one. Someone is always going to oppose for the stupidest (or worse, incorrect) reason, and no amount of discussion will change their mind. --Kbdank71 14:26, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I have to admit, the "me too"s, were a bit disenheartening, especially when it was so obvious to me that no time was apparently being taken to actully look over my contributions. For example, knowing about current events (as I eventually noted), or that I had previously put myself up for an editor review, and only had one response. (He's another of the 16 : )
I actually was appreciating the neutrals. Several said nice things, though "needs more experience" also made me wonder : )
And by the way, Thank you for taking the time to comment. - jc37 14:46, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

CFD

Hello. I just wondered if I did an OK job moving the category... I was bored and wanted to do something! So just thought I'd check with you! Thanks. — AnemoneProjectors (talk) 18:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You did fine. Thanks for the help! --Kbdank71 19:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

....long overdue...

The Editor's Barnstar
KBdank is awarded this barnstar for his devotion to the unfashionable and unheralded job of helping to clear the deletion backlogs which are ignored by so many administrators. Your commitment to staying true to your words and honouring your "election promises" is very much appreciated in this political age. Thankyou, Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 08:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you—Drats!

Thanks for all the reverts to rid the Category:Fauna by country pages of the {{Cfd}} tag. The "drats" is because I just got approved to use AWB and thought I'd give it a whirl using that as my first project. (I have others, they just aren't as "prepped" as they need to be in terms of a list.) Anyway, thanks again for all your help and patience. Had I realized that categories weren't "trees", this would have been a much different (and easier) process. Live and learn.—Chidom talk 15:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I started to use AWB myself, but realized it would take forever, so I just rolled back the edits. Got it all done in about 10 minutes. --Kbdank71 15:50, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedians that support the SUS

I would be interested in how you read the debate as consensus on closing this category. As I read through the comments, there was actually more support (and well-reasoned) for deleting the other and keeping this one. Before heading off to DRV, I thought we could talk this out first. --NThurston 19:11, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

There were very few people that wanted to keep either. Regardless, though, it's common sense. Kingboyk brought up an excellent point with There's absolutely no need to categorise users based on what solutions they favour to on-wiki issues. Nobody has actually shown that wikipedia has a need for this category. --Kbdank71 19:51, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Setting aside whether the category has value, it was nommed/tagged 4 days into the nom (as stated by Cswrye and me) and typically I think cats are relisted when that happens? What would be your suggestion at this point, Kbdank? - jc37 01:11, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm still leaning against re-opening it at this point, as it was closed late anyway, and it wasn't leaning toward keep or even no consensus. You can do as NThurston suggested and take it to DRV if you want. --Kbdank71 12:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
I think it's bad precedent to allow someone to add an additional category late, then base a decision to delete based on just one opinion. If you actually look at the time stamps, most of the conversation had wound down by the time this cat was added. Even then, it's not clear at all that anybody knew that there were two cats involved, as most of the arguments against the first contained the "not a real organization" element, which wouldn't apply here. Looking at the time stamps - the first response was "Keep." This was followed by my "Strong Keep" (although I can assure you that I did not even know that the second category was actually part of the debate, so it probably shouldn't). jc37 then pointed out that adding a second cat was a bad idea, which almost certainly discouraged further comment. Finally, you got the twin votes to delete both right before you closed it. At a minimum, the appearance is that this did not get discussed appropriately, and closing it within just a few hours of the only Delete votes (very late, by your account) only suggests bias. The net result of your actions is equivalent to a speedy delete - you decided that one late comment by one person was in and of itself sufficient to delete. Other comments were ignored. It's not worth heading to DRV over, but at a minimum, I think you should admit that this was not handled very well. --NThurston 13:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
NT, I understand your concerns, and I would support an opportunity on DRV for this to go through CFD again, but the last part of your message above, well, I don't think I need to comment, but just point out what you wrote. (To clarify, I struck out the section I'm referring to, please feel free to revert the strike-outs.) Whether you wish to believe me or not is your choice, but I have to tell you, in at least my time reading and editing CfD, I've never seen Kbdank ever act outside of good faith. He's human like the rest of us, I presume - though with his workload, I sometimes wonder : ) - and he's misunderstood, or overlooked things at times. But he's the first one to agree when things were confusing (just read this talk page, if in doubt). My concern at this point is that it relates directly to support/oppostition of userboxes/WP:GUS/etc. and it's deletion could be seen as unintentionally divisive (You comments above being symptomatic of that). As I said above, if you want to post for DRV, I'll be happy to support you, since I think it deserves it's own CfD. - jc37 17:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I didn't mean to imply bad faith at all, but like you say, the circumstances might have given an unintended appearance of unfair treatment. DRV is an option, but not a fun one, and I don't know that this particular category was important enough to me to justify the pain. --NThurston 17:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

UCFD

Thanks ever so much for taking care of closing the user categories discussion, it's really appreciated.

I didn't come here to complain, but I wonder if you maybe should have applied some discretion with Wikipedia:User_categories_for_discussion#More_soccer_categories? The problem there is that yes, there was no consensus, but nobody advocated the status quo. Some people wanted them deleted, others wanted them renamed. Given that we won't delete without a strong consensus or some overwhelming reason to do, it would be better to default to renaming them. (Really, Mike might have considered speedy renaming as they're just matching existing naming standards). --kingboyk 21:06, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought about it, trust me. But I was really on the fence myself on what to do. You brought up a good point, but so did Cyde. I figured it be renominated to get a better chance at consensus. Hell, I wouldn't say boo if Mike wants to speedy them. --Kbdank71 12:45, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
But would u say boohoo :) Just a quick note from ramstein air force base. (ugh there are no atildas on my vaio ux180p keyboard, hard to sign) «»Who?¿?meta 13:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
No worries. You're doing a tremendous job. I hope you have some flameproof pants though as some of these recent CFDs are likely to be controversial whichever way they get closed :) --kingboyk 20:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
:D Thanks for the compliment. That'd be a negative on the flameproof pants (unless you count my turnout gear (I'm a volunteer firefighter)). I've gotten to the point where I just close them as best I can. And I don't cringe so much anymore when I see the yellow "You've got mail" banner pop up. --Kbdank71 22:47, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Who

Hey, nice to hear from you! I've been keeping up with your exploits via your blog. Sounds like a great time! Keep in touch. --Kbdank71 17:35, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, you don't need a tilde key to sign your name... Just click on the "Your signature with timestamp" button above the edit field. --Kbdank71 18:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Elementals

category:Fictional elementals

There's a lot to go through. Any chance a bot could just:

a.) remove all sub-categories

b.) replace the category in all articles (including the articles listed under the category:Sailor Team) with the following comment:

<!--Please categorise this article into an appropriate sub-category of Category:Fictional characters by superhuman power. Actual elementals of nature (as opposed to those who just generate/manipulate elemental energy) should be added to [[List of fictional elementals]]. (As per: [[Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 September 23#Elements]].) -->

"Many hands make light work", after all : ) - jc37 17:46, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Possibly, but I doubt it would work. Just because we leave a message like that doesn't mean anyone would ever do it (or do it correctly), and then we'd be left with a delete (category) situation, since none of the articles would be re-catted. You might want to get in touch with those that wanted to merge and ask for their help. That's the problem with asking for a "merge into proper subcats" or somesuch... Someone has to manually do it, and it's not something that really needs a CFD for. --Kbdank71 17:54, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Understood. I'll put a message on the comics wikiproject with a link back to here, and to the CfD. The project's fairly active, and I don't doubt that many would be happy to help. - jc37 17:59, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
That's a great idea. I didn't even think about that. --Kbdank71 18:01, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
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