Talk:Keith Ellison (politician)

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Contents 1 Note on archiving. 2 Keith Ellison not John Randolph of Roanoke is the first Muslim elected to Congress 3 John Randolph of Roanoke in his own words 4 David Barton's claims are self-published and not up to wiki-standards 5 Photo 6 COI

[edit] Note on archiving.

As there were no ongoing debates and the page was getting long, I archived the last disscussion page.--Wowaconia 20:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Keith Ellison not John Randolph of Roanoke is the first Muslim elected to Congress

The claim that Keith Ellison is not the first Muslim in the Federal Congress is put forward by only one person the self-proclaimed historian David Barton see this discussion on his source for the claim at http://blogs.salon.com/0003494/2007/01/14.html . All accredited historians, agree as does the Official historian to the US House of Reps that Ellison is the first Muslim elected to the federal congress. John Randolph of Roanoke as a boy rooting for Muslims in stories about the Crusades is not the same as actually being a Muslim. In most places in America in 1799 (when Randolph was elected) you couldn't get elected to Congress if you were a Roman Catholic which is a lot closer to Protestant than Islam. See this article by a history professor on the need for those who ratified the Constitution in 1788 to address the concerns of Protestant Reverends that the lack of a religious test to hold office would allow Catholics and Muslims to join the Govt. http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/editorial/16359671.htm Barton's claim that John Randolph of Roanoke was elected as a Muslim just eleven years after this heated debate seems typical of his shoddy scholarship.

--Wowaconia 04:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Barton's quoted source for his claim is The Life of John Randolph of Roanoke (vol. II) by Hugh A. Garland. The book does exist, see here and here, and I was able to access a ten-page excerpt through JSTOR that was reprinted in the William & Mary Quarterly in 1915. The excerpt concerns Randolph's school days and unfortunately does not include the page cited by Barton (p. 102) -- it makes no mention of any religion.

There seems to be ample evidence to doubt Barton's claim about Randolph, as mentioned above, but to be rigorous and to forestall an edit war, does anyone have access to Garland's biography? (Perhaps I should ask this on Randolph's page too.)

Three white leopards 04:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Try Google Books, I've been looking into it and it seems John Randolph of Roanoke had many stages of depression and questioning his own worth and was deeply troubled that people claiming to be Christians could still be greedy or violent. It appears he had a long period where he would not participate in the Christian rite of the Lord's Supper as he felt himself unworthy to partake in it.

There is no mention of him doing any of the things Islam requires of converts.

Here is what is required to convert to Islam according to http://www.themodernreligion.com/convert/islam_conversion_main.htm

A person becomes a Muslim upon pronouncing the shahadah ["Ash HaduAllaa Ilaaha Il-lallaah Wa Ash Hadu Anna Muhammadar Rasullulah" which translates into "I bear Witness that there is no deity but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad if His Messenger" but must be said in Arabic] in front of two adult Muslim witnesses. A Muslim has to do the daily prayers, fast in Ramadan and apply the teachings of Islam in his daily life. But if a revert is unable to do all the prayers immediately after his conversion, he should try to do those he could. However, he should aim to be a practicing Muslim as soon as possible in order not to miss out in the race to accumulate blessings.

So far I haven't even seen any source claiming he owned a Quran.

--Wowaconia 05:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica only mentions this about his religion:

"Both his religious and his political views were radical and extreme. At an early period he imbibed deistical opinions, which he promulgated with eagerness."

There is a note:

"The best biography is that by Henry Adams, John Randolph (Boston, 1882), in the "American Statesmen Series." There is also a biography, which, however, contains many inaccuracies, by Hugh A. Garland (2 vols., New York, 1851)."

I don't think I have either of those. (SEWilco 05:32, 20 January 2007 (UTC))

I hadn't thought to check Google Books, thanks! It has the book, but I believe is missing the cited section. Barton cites p. 102 in volume II (inconveniently, the Google Books version is in one volume). He also adds in his cite "to Dr. Brockenbrough," who appears on p. 22 in an unrelated letter, and on a p. 172 that the Google preview lacks.

I've discovered that it's at a library near me, though -- I'll take a look tomorrow. User:Jbjazz, is it reasonable to ask to defer to the official Congressional historical version for 24 hours, in the meantime?

Three white leopards 05:42, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article John Randolph of Roanoke does not mention his religion. It does mention heavy drinking. (SEWilco 05:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC))

Randolph's article has a link to the Congress bio. No mention of religion there. (SEWilco 05:45, 20 January 2007 (UTC))

True. When I said "the official Congressional historical version" I was referring (unclearly, sorry) to the positive statement by U.S. Senate historian Donald Ritchie that Ellison was the first (see, for example, here). -Three white leopards 05:56, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John Randolph of Roanoke in his own words

Here are some quotes from "The Life of John Randolph of Roanoke" By Hugh A. Garland courtesy of Google books as the book is in the public domain. (I’ll probably copy this stuff for inclusion onto the John Randolph of Roanoke article). Note:These quotes taken from his Sept. 25, 1818 letter to Francis Scott Key.

It seems that as a youth Randolph was excited by the writers of the Enlightenment and felt that Christianity was hypocrisy - -

He wrote Dr. Brockenbrough, “Your imputing such sentiments to a heated imagination does not surprise me, who have been bred in the school of Hobbs and Bayle, and Shaftesbury and Bolingbroke, and Hume and Voltaire and Gibbon; who have cultivated the skeptical philosophy from my vain-glorious boyhood—I might also say childhood—and who have felt all that unutterable disgust which hypocrisy and cant and fanaticism never fail to excit in men of education and refinement, superadded to our natural repugnance to Christianity. I am not, even now, insensible to this impression; but as the excesses of her friends (real or pretended) can never alienate the votary of liberty from a free form of government, and enlist him under the banners of despotism, so neither can the cant of fanaticism, or hypocrisy, or of both (for so far from being incompatible, they are generally found united in the same character—may God in his mercy preserve and defend us from both) disgust the pious with true religion."

It is during this period that he reads about the Crusades and roots for the Muslims.

"Very early in life I imbibed an absurd prejudice in favor of Mahomedanism and its votaries. The crescent had a tailsmanic effect on my imagination, and I rejoiced in all its triumphs over the cross (which I despised) as I mourned over its defeats; and Mahomet II Himself did not more exult than I did, when the crescent was planted on the dome of St. Sophia, and the cathedral of the Constantines was converted into a Turkish mosque. To this very day I feel the effects of Peter Randolph’s Zanga on a temper naturally impatient of injury, but insatiably vindictive under insult."

His "conversion" that he talks about with Key is not from Islam to Christianity but from doubting Christian to fully convinced and participating Church member.

"Mine had been no sudden change of opinion. I can refer to a record, showing, on my part, a desire of more than nine years’ standing, to partake of the sacrament of the Lord’s Supper; although, for two-and-twenty years preceding, my feet had never crossed the threshold of the house of prayer. This desire I was restrained from indulging, by the fear of eating and drinking unrighteously. And although that fear hath been cast out by perfect love, I have never yet gone to the altar, neither have I been present at the performance of divine service, unless indeed I may so call my reading the liturgy of our church, and some chapters of the Bible to my poor Negroes on Sundays. Such passages as I think require it, and which I feel competent to explain, I comment upon—enforcing as far as possible, and dwelling upon, those texts especially that enjoin the indispensable accompaniment of a good lfe as the touchstone of the true faith. The Sermon from the Mount, and the Evangelists generally; the Epistle of Paul to the Ephesians, chap. vi.; the General Epistle of James, and the First Epistle of John; these are my chief texts."

--Wowaconia 06:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you again. Were you able to access the cited letter to Dr. Brockenbrough on p. 172? I certainly don't think it's necessary in order to restore Ellison's "first Muslim" claim on the page (which I'll do shortly if nobody else has), but if we can find the exact passage that Barton cites and it isn't evidence for Randolph having been a Muslim, we can put the question to bed for all reasonable people. -Three white leopards 06:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll look for it.--Wowaconia 06:35, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Here is the letter to Brockenbrough on p. 172, it does not mention anything about Islam at all. The reference to a Telemonian shield is to the Greek hero Ajax (mythology).

"From the same steamboat, Nautilus, he addressed the following note to Dr. Brockenbrough. “As I stepped into the Nautilus, a large packer from Washington, among which was yours inclosing ‘Uncle Nat’s’ letter, was put into my hands. The ‘Native of Virginia’ is indiscreet in covering too much ground. he ought to have darned and patched old Tom’s Mantle, and fought behind it as a Telemonian shield. Add to my P.S, in the address to my constituents, that letters, via New-York, to the care of the P. Master, will reach me. My address is, care of John & Wm. Gilliatt, London, until further notice. I am nearing the Amity. Farewell! farewell!!"

--Wowaconia 06:52, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seems I have to thank you one more time! :) By the way, I've found a different version of the biography that is split into two volumes, and therefore can definitively state that the cited p. 102 contains only the "prejudice in favor of Mohamedanism" passage you quote above. That is the only citation given by Barton, and there is no way to infer from that that Randolph was Muslim. Time to put this one to bed. -Three white leopards 07:03, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] David Barton's claims are self-published and not up to wiki-standards

As the article by David Barton claiming that Ellison is not the first Muslim elected to congress is on http://www.wallbuilders.com/resources/misc/ellison.pdf and as if you go to there home page and click on “About Us” you will see listed under founder the following info “WallBuilders’ founder and president, David Barton, resides in Aledo, Texas (just west of Fort Worth)”

therefor this article is self-published and not up to the wiki-standard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:V#SELF

(Emphasis added) "Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.

--Wowaconia 06:36, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Did my last edit work correctly and its reason make sense? I think so, but I'm double-checking as I'm quite new at editing Wikipedia. -Three white leopards 06:47, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

It is claimed that this source is self-published. However, it is an organization and not an individual, so I don't know how it works that way. Wooyi 23:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

The current photo looks horrendous, and in my view, un-Congressional. I suggest someone to find his official portrait. Wooyi 23:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Its a free photo from the public domain (which trumps fair use images) and its a headshot (the norm for politician pages in wiki) which is why its there currently. Everyday I've been going to his House website and clicking on the high-res photo link at http://ellison.house.gov/images/photo_hires.jpg

but so far there is nothing posted there :(

--Wowaconia 01:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] COI

I have placed a COI tag on the article because of Excessive length, which indicates either COI or vanity--his article is 5 times as long as almost all the other MN congressmen. This is comprised of:

1. Excessive details on legislative activity during the 83rd session of the MN legislature
2. Excessive quotations from speeches in congress
3. Excessive quotes re Islamic causes
4. The controversies section: I think Farrahan balanced, but too long; I find the NY News part trivial. The rest seems in proportion.
5. The references. There are 128 cites, half by him. Even Michelle Bachmann has only 69 total. DGG 09:44, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

• You seem to be using the wrong tag, if you think this article is Pro-Ellison than why are you using a tag that says “The creator or main contributor to this page may have a conflict of interest with the subject of this article.” Aren’t you arguing the exact opposite?
• I cleared the details about the 83rd session.
• Why are you complaining about the number of references when the tag you are using says "If the creator of the page would like to keep it from being deleted, it should be re-written in neutral language, and should use independent, reliable, third-party sources to show that the subject is notable."
• The whole question of the number of references is a moot issue see Wikipedia:Article size

"For stylistic purposes, only the main body prose (excluding links, see also, reference and footnote sections, and lists/tables) should be counted toward an article's total size, since the point is to limit the size of the main body of prose."

• No MN legislators has had more controversy surrounding them and more national and international media attention than Ellison, they have smaller articles because they are less notable.
• I personally agree that the Nation of Islam information is too long, but I don't touch it because I hate getting into month-long edit wars with the other editors who watch this page.

--Wowaconia 12:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)