Talk:Kimchi

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Contents 1 Parasite Sub-section under Composition Section 2 "Deep Kimchi" comment in Trivia Section 3 "deep kimchi" complaint 4 A euphemism for 'doodoo'? 5 沈菜 6 Kimchi can be roughly translated as "coleslaw", 7 shrimp? 8 poor scholarship 9 redirects 10 Pronunciation? 11 Dongchimi 12 Variations of Kimchi 13 Gastric cancer 14 Kimchi Refrigerators 15 Introduction of Chili Peppers 16 Freedom Cabbage 17 Chinese vs Napa cabbage 18 Mrs Offut? 19 Health Benefit 20 Leewy0121's edits 21 Poor image

[edit] Parasite Sub-section under Composition Section

This paragraph should be deleted. The fact that this was added to the Composition section shows ill-intent of the writer. The 2005 incident had more to do with trade tensions between Korea and China exacerbated by China's Northeast Project. This was blip in news history and it's inclusion under the "composition" section is quite inappropriate. Melonbarmonster 00:03, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Deep Kimchi" comment in Trivia Section

This particular "trivia" doesn't belong in this wiki article. Although some people have no objections to this, others are obviously offended. It's not relevant to debate whether people should be offended or whether it's an existing colloquial or not. The issue here is that in light of the possibility of offending people(most Koreans would find this very offensive) and the peripheral, if not outright irrelevant nature of this issue, there is no pressing reason why this has to be included in the Trivia section and should be taken off. Melonbarmonster 23:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "deep kimchi" complaint

i'm really offended by that lil paragraph about "deep kimchi" watsup wit that? honestly, i know not everyone like that stuff, i ndon't like it either but that doesnt mean u can just mock other culture/food etc, i mean, cheese stink big time and so does curry etc but i don't see them being put down in their articles...move that shit outta here i'm serious its not being narrow minded...IF DISSIN OTHERS ARE BEING OPEN MINDED, R U GONNA B RACIST OPENLY?

• I dunno that it was meant to be a 'dis' on other cultures, or a put-down on the food item. A paragraph 'dissing' kimchi would look more like: "Kimchi tastes and smells like shit (like all Korean food). As a result, some people say 'in deep kimchi' instead of 'in deep shit'." If the word is actually used as slang, then its inclusion is valid, and not necissarily supposed to be offensive in and of itself. Of course, if you find it offensive, then you have a simple solution: change the article. Simple as that. If someone else wants, they can change it back. Rinse, repeat. Of course, you're missing the point: this is slang. Slang words aren't always culturally sensitive. But hey, if you're easily offended, go on over to the List of ethnic slurs article and stop pussy-footing around. --Zonath 03:11, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

Most Koreans would reasonably find this to be offensive.Melonbarmonster 20:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• I am a Korean American born in the U.S. I have Korean as well as American friends and I have never once heard kimchi used as a euphemism for "shit" by anyone.

• Actually, there's this caricature made by a Korean American webcomic artist. I don't know if the phrase "In deep kimchi" is in use, but I understand why one might think and use that phrase. I don't think the phrase was invented particularly to offend Koreans. Me and my friends refer, for example, to the Russian drink [Kvass] "sewer water", though we still love drinking it. We don't mean to offend Russians, we only mean that that particular drink is smelly.

There's no mention of "deep kimchi" in that reference at all.Melonbarmonster 20:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• The phrase "in deep kimchi", as my father and my grandfather told it to me (Dad being an USAF 'nam vet and Gramps being a Korean war Army vet), originated from the Korean War; people fled their homes, with kimchi still fermenting in underground pots. When these pots got opened by curious GI's or got shelled open or whatever, they had been there waaaay too long and while not smelling like feces in particular, Americans would of course refer to it as smelling "like shit". This was apparently not an uncommon material to come across, so kimchi got a reputation among troops as smelling bad. 68.100.68.23 03:47, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

you guys wrote Korea had low number of SARS cases..in fact there was NONE fix that please (there were couple of minor scares, but turned out to be normal flu or pneumonia)

• Actually a WHO report [1] lists ROK as having 3 cases of SARS (although all were imported cases, and probably sick before coming to Korea). Hardly surprising, due to the proximity of Korea to China. -Zonath 03:01, Apr 14, 2005 (UTC)

The picutre shows the remainder I had at hand, maybe someone wants to replace this picture with something that looks nicer...? Kokiri 20:19, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The dish was okay (drooling...), but the photo is out of focus!!! I agree, a sharper picture would be nice  :-) Kowloonese 21:03, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Is that better? No, I'm not a photographer :-( Kokiri 10:16, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

(cur) (last) 15:38, 11 Feb 2005 Pekinensis (rv vandal) (cur) (last) 15:11, 11 Feb 2005 155.84.57.253 (deep Kimchi) This was not vandalism. Just because it didn't fit in your narrow view, doesn't make it malicious. This is how the word is used in daily discourse, especially in the US military.

• Thank you for your contribution 155.84.57.253. I rewrote and replaced "deep kimchi", because it is used in that way. If people feel it doesn't belong it this page, it should be moved to wiktionary Kappa 17:28, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• Just to second a point already made, my parents (my dad, who is ex-Army, and my mom, who is Korean), do use the phrase "deep kimchi." I have never thought that they were comparing kimchi to shit (since we eat it all the time). Yes, it smells, but a lot of cultures do use self-deprecating humor (ever hear a Norwegian joke?) and don't get all offended at comments about their food.

This joke probably originated from American GI in WWII and most koreans would find this offensive. Racist jokes and cracks among friends and family can be self-deprecating but inappropriate for wiki imo... or in public for that matter. Melonbarmonster 20:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• I've never seen Kimchi in any kind of slang dictionary nor heard any English-speaking using 'Kimchi' as shit. Not everyone seems to agree on this, so I think the section of kimchi's slang should be omitted.

I agree. Other than the military influenced minority, this slang use of kimchi in non-existent and otherwise inappropriateMelonbarmonster 20:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

• It looks to me that "deep kimchi" was just a tongue-in-cheek way to say "deep shit" without being vulgar. It's not comparing kimchi to poo. It's to further color a colorful phrase to express an exoticism. James Lilley, former ambassador to China and South Korea, used the phrase "deep kimchi" as recently as 2006 to describe Bush's troubles with influencing Asian countries. Do a simple Google search, and it's used all over the internet, particularly regarding the military and politics. I'd say it's similar to how G.I.s in Vietnam used "nuoc mam" as slang for different things. Zenpickle 18:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It's obviously part of US military vernacular but nonetheless inappropriate and disrespectful.melonbarmonster 07:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A euphemism for 'doodoo'?

Sure, we might be uncomfortable with the word 'shit' in an article, but if you wanna say that kimchi is a euphemism for something, it's probably a bit silly using a word which is itself a euphemism.

• In American slang, Kimchi is a euphemism for the word "doodoo" (by 4.159.80.138)

While we could just rewrite this to be a bit more oblique, it would make the sentence a lot more cumbersome and ambiguous:

• In American slang, Kimchi is a euphemism for a more common 4-letter slang word meaning 'feces'

I say leave it as 'shit', after all, there is a wiki article on the word.

I have never heard of this word being used as a euphemism for "shit" either. I don't think this usage is wide enough to justify including it in this article.

• • • Okay, as this has been removed and replaced a couple of times now, it seems that some sort of verification is in order.... on a yahoo search for "in deep kimchi" (in quotes), I got back 359 hits, many of them referring back to either this article, or one of the sites that mirrors it. On the other hand, "in deep shit" returned 149,000 hits. It seems to me like the use of this as slang does exist in limited amounts, but is it really widespread enough to justify putting in the article? Personally, I would lean more towards putting it on some list of slang and removing it from this article. --Zonath July 7, 2005 02:01 (UTC)

• Yeah, well, one might also want to search for "deep kimchee" (with two e's) because that's how a lot of people spell it, even if it doesn't go in with all the normal romanizations. 68.100.68.23 17:44, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

My two cents: "Deep Kimchi" is used as another way to say "Deep Trouble". "Deep Shit" is also used the same way, as is "Hot Water". The reference of kimchi is to trouble, not shit, though both are something you would not want to wade in piles of. No one ever says "I had to take a kimchi". I think it is more commonly used in families from a military background, perhaps because of the Korean War? WormRunner | Talk 15:39, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

• My understanding of the use of the term was that you'd say "in deep kimchi" to mean "in deep shit", but you'd never actually use the word kimchi as a replacement for the word. While "deep trouble" would be a more accurate way to describe the use of the term, I'd think that that's not what they meant when they coined the phrase.... 68.100.68.23 03:47, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
• I spent the 80s in military service and "deep kimchi" was ubiquitous. Deep kimchi is a euphemism for deep trouble, more emphatic than hot water but without compromising one's military bearing with potty-language. Indeed, "deep kimchi" enhances one's GI cred by implying a tour or two on the DMZ. Those former colleagues I associate with the phrase had all enjoyed tours in the ROK. --Fulminouscherub 22:20, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 沈菜

The Wiktionary entry for "沈" says it's a simplified form and that "瀋" is its traditional equivalent. If this is true, why are there few to no search results for "瀋菜"? "沈菜" seems to be the common way to write it even in traditional character texts (see zh:韓國泡菜), so if "沈" serves not only as a simplification of "瀋", but has been around as a traditional character, its wiktionary entry should be corrected. Wikipeditor 14:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The wiktionary entry strikes me as dubious. 沈 is not the simplified form of 瀋, although both are equivalent to shen3. --Philopedia 03:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kimchi can be roughly translated as "coleslaw",

is that accurate? --BillSpike 00:54, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

No. Neither the preparation techniques nor the taste have anything in common. Also, coleslaw is specifically cabbage-based; kimchi can contain cabbage, or any number of other vegetables (and even non-vegetables). In fact, it would be hard to think of a less adequate way to describe kimchi. -- Visviva 01:53, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] shrimp?

Shrimp is rarely an ingredient in kimchi. If seafood is added into kimchi, it is usually squid or oyster. This is not to say that shrimp is never added. I guess anyone can add just about anything to kimchi, but in my 24 years of kimchi eating experience, I have never seen nor heard of shrimp being a typical ingredient. Thusly, I shall move to replace shrimp with squid or oyster.--Heesung 15:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

That's bc you're parents are from kyoungsangdo or chullado probably. Shrimp, squid, oyster, cod innards, anchovies, etc., all falls under the salted seafood seasoning category called, "juht". They make this seasoning with any type of seafood imaginable and shrimp is actually a very common type of juht used for kimchi.Melonbarmonster 20:09, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I've never seen shrimp cocktail-sized shrimp in kimchi, but baby fermented shrimp 첫 is widely used. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Skulligan (talk • contribs) 18:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

I've never seen shrimp cocktail-sized shrimp in kimchi, but baby fermented shrimp 첫 is widely used. Zenpickle 18:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] poor scholarship

I believe that the section about the phrase "in deep kimchi" is an example of poor scholarship. The phrase itself has nothing to do with the actual subject of the article, while the veracity of the section is disputed and is unnecessary. The content, which barely merits inclusion in Wikipedia anyway, should be moved to an article dealing with foreign slang words or other types of vernacular.--Heesung 06:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I would have thought that the references would help to dispel any problems with veracity. As for inclusion, it is certainly trivial, and shouldn't take up as much of the article as it does. However, that's more of an argument for expanding the article than for removing this section (which I rewrote in hope of finally putting an end to the endless revert wars over its inclusion/exclusion/phrasing). -- Visviva 07:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

THANK YOU for the references. (And just to rectify wasting the time of whatever poor soul may happen to be looking over this message: a trivial fact. There is a kind of extremely hot pepper used in Thai cooking, which might Romanize to "prik khii nuu", but I have no idea how good that Romanization actually is. It translates to "mouse dung pepper" due to its size. However, it is more often translated to "mouse SHIT pepper" for reasons I cannot even begin to explain, except that apparently the word can be used as an inoffensive-but-not-quite-dinnertable-conversation-worthy-subject verb) 68.100.68.23 03:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Heesung that it doesn't deserve a section of its own, so I renamed it 'Trivia', in which interesting but not particularly important details go under. —Mirlen 01:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

This shouldn't even be in trivia. The reason for the trivia section is to highlight interesting quirks about the subject matter. Something like this is offensive, disrespectful and slightly racist in my opinion. I suspect that this is true for a good number of wiki users. There are no pressing reasons to include this in light of the obvious rancour this is causing.Melonbarmonster 19:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't find it "offensive" besides the use of profanity the phrase avoids, I don't find it "disrespectful" (on the contrary, I find it betrays an awareness of the world outside the contexts in which it is used), and I most certainly do NOT find it "slightly racist" in any way (seriously, how?). It's not even being used in such a way as calling a German a Kraut (which IS a slur, and yet I don't see people up in arms about its inclusion as encyclopedic content). It's an "interesting quirk" indeed about the subject matter, that is a small part of American culture (and arguably one that will have more relevance, than, I dunno, say, ) and oversensitivity is something of the attitude I myself find somewhat offensive. Who died and made sensitivity and offensiveness the supreme judge of "races" (a concept which I find laughable, having more blood of Korean royalty in me than anything else, and yet not speaking any languages but English and Japanese)? And where exactly does offensiveness of a fact override a detail's need to be documented? I don't mean to rap on you or anything here, but I find certain (prevalent) attitudes to be very... arrogant. -129.21.96.59 13:14, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

"Kraut" is a racial slur and casual usage of that word is highly ignorant, inappropriate, disrespectful, etc.. Say that to a German casually and see what happens. But you're not even asking to document a racial slur, you're claiming that perjorative use of a highly valued Korean cultural icon isn't disrespectful. Because of the history behind the term, it's tolerated when used in a military, political context but it is disrespectful in all other uses. When you force your own American military sensibilities over sensibilities of Koreans because you "don't find if disrespectful", that qualifies as borderline racist behavior caused by ignorance in my book. You should take heed and try to learn and understand different cultural perspectives and sharpen your own cultural sensibilities rather than being stubborn about not being able to distinguish. By the way, I would advise you to not go around touting your "royal blood" because doing so you look like an ignorant gyopo or half-Korean to other Koreans or non-Koreans who actually know about Korean family lineages. Besides for someone who claims to be at least part Korean, it seems to me that it would be better to err on the side of caution and be more alert than not about stuff like this. melonbarmonster 08:08, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] redirects

I think there should also be a redirect from 'gimchee.'\

Google search on the word "gimchee" reveals 290 searches. I guess it's worth a redirect. I'll create one. Deiaemeth 04:44, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Pao Cai is drastically different from Kimchi. I don't know why a person would even suggest merging Pao Cai with Kimchi. Just because they are "pickled vegetables", it doesn't mean they are the same thing! By same logic, Daikon, pickled cucumbers, pickled onions, and mixed pickles merged under Kimchi (or vice versa). Deiaemeth 08:45, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation?

How do I pronounce kimchi?

kim-chee! Deiaemeth 03:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dongchimi

Could dongchimi be added? It's supposed to be one of the favorite kimchis in Korea. 69.81.158.23 20:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

If you'd like to write the article on dongchimi, feel welcome to. Maybe a list or something of the most common kimchi varieties might also be useful instead of separate articles for each variety. --Zonath 01:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Dongchimi should be a seperate article, if possible. =D Deiaemeth 06:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Dongchimi is probably the oldest type of kimchi that's widely eaten. I don't see why it can't be added to this article if someone wants to put in the effort. Even better, if someone wants to write a whole wiki article on dongchimi.Melonbarmonster 20:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Variations of Kimchi

Though this is lightly touched upon in the article, some examples of different sorts might be useful. For example Naebak Kimchi. Watery Kimchi, and if possible regional variation of Kimchi. For example dried shrimp tends to be used more around Soeul and then fish products tend to be used more South. I don't mean an extravaganza, but a loose idea of how it can vary from region to region and kind to kind. Maybe also something on the cultural significance? Like how it's served at meals, and how Koreans ask if the person has been eating their Kimchi when they are sick... I know there are several articles on the internet about the variations in kimchi also by how rich the person is and Kimjang... so there is enough to cover this. --Hitsuji Kinno 15:44, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gastric cancer

An IP has changed the gastric cancer rate for [South?] Korea and Japan from "10 times higher" to "2 times higher". The URI given at the end of the sentence leads to an abstract that doesn't seem to support either factor, nor does it say that "heavy consumers of kimchi" suffer from "a 50% higher risk of stomach cancer". How about giving the URI directly after the word "study", so readers aren't mislead into thinking the figures can be found in the abstract? Wikipeditor

[edit] Kimchi Refrigerators

From the article: "Most Koreans have a separate refrigerator to store kimchi. Kimchi is well-known for having a very distinguishable smell which can corrupt the odor and flavor of other foods."

Kimchi refrigerators are not used to separate the smell of kimchi from other foods. They are designed to keep kimchi at an optimal temperature for proper fermentation. Zenpickle 14:25, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

It's used bc to separate the smell also. Kimchi fridge's are also excellent for chilling beer at that right before slush temp.. Melonbarmonster 19:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay. Saving up for a kimchi fridge now. Zenpickle 18:47, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The CNN report cited in the article only talks about the smell, and it only mentions refrigerators with a special kimchi compartment inside. A source needs to be provided to show that "most Koreans" have totally separate kimchi fridges, and that fermentation temperature is also a motivating factor. CapnPrep 08:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction of Chili Peppers

I saw that a "citation needed" marker has been put next to the comment that chili peppers were introduced by Portuguese traders coming from Japan. I'm not sure if it's from Portuguese traders themselves, but I did come across a reference at the Korea National Museum stating that chili peppers were introduced during the Hideyoshi Invasions (1592-1598). Zenpickle 14:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Checked the citation and the current reference states that peppers came from China or Japan. I haven't come across anything definitive on whether peppers came into Korea via China or Japan. Melonbarmonster 19:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Freedom Cabbage

It might well be interesting for the article to mention that John Bolton (soon to retire from his post as US ambassador to the UN), when frustrated in his efforts to attain even modest sanctions against North Korea following their nuclear bomb test, presented a resolution to the General Assembly which called for renaming Kimchee 'Freedom Cabbage'. --Philopedia 03:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

If you can find a reference for this, it might be a good addition to the trivia section.Melonbarmonster 05:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese vs Napa cabbage

Please note that Napa cabbage is a US-centric pseudonym for Chinese cabbage. Whilst the general term Chinese cabbage can encompass a wide range of varieties, it is typically used for varieties also known as Napa, Baechu, Wombok etc.

• Napa cabbage redirects to Chinese cabbage
• http://www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Brassica_rapa.html#pekinensis shows Napa as pseudonym of Chinese cabbage

Please help to keep Wikipedia accessible to all, not just those in the USA.

Incidentally, where I live (Australia) there is no such thing as "Napa cabbage" - it is either Chinese cabbage or Wombok, and is used by Korean immigrants (and myself) to make very good Kimchi. Webaware 21:38, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Not trying to sound US-centric but "chinese cabbage" is used to describe a whole bunch of chinese vegetables that's different from the kimchi baechu cabbage. On the other hand, napa cabbage refers to the specific type of Chinese cabbage that's used to make kimchi. I remember a while ago, a bunch of koreans where I used to live would pay a local farmer to grow napa cabbage for them because available "chinese cabbages" were pretty bad for kimchi making. Now napa cabbage is readily available in us and used for kimchi making. Nonetheless, I still think it would be more accurate to use "napa cabbage" even it's not grown or maybe not specified in Australia. I think it's a more accurate description than "chinese cabbage". ANd as you pointed out if people click on the napa cabbage link it'll direct them to the chinese cabbage article anyways and they can read more about it on their own if they want.Melonbarmonster 22:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, that'll have to do. It isn't worth arguing about, given that those of us outside the USA are used to dealing with this sort of thing already. Webaware 06:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mrs Offut?

Who is Mrs Offut and why is the way she spells the word kimchi relevant? Is she a well known authority on kimchi or spelling? 70.83.20.197 20:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

no idea. should be deleted.Melonbarmonster 08:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Health Benefit

"Kimchi has been cited by health magazines as one of the world’s five “healthiest foods,” with the claim that it is rich in vitamins, aids digestion, and may help in preventing cancer. [3] Moreover, many researchers confirm that due to kimchi’s high concentration of vitamin C and the rapid production of lactic bacteria, the Korean people did not suffer from the SARS or bird flu incidents that afflicted millions of people in Asia."

The author should be more careful in proclaiming health effects when his or her assertion are mostly unsubstantiated. No comprehensive scientific research has been done to prove kimchi as an effective remedy against the spread of SARS. Also, "health magazines" (What specific literature is the author referring to, and are they independent from food manufacturers?) should not be used as an authoritative voice on what food is healthy.

Your quote is referenced. That second sentence is pretty ridiculous thoughMelonbarmonster 20:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Leewy0121's edits

These edits, a major change of the entire article, not only left it with broken "footnote references", but also reduced valuable information about possible detriments to its consumers' health to a single line in the very bottom of the article (external link). Perhaps somebody with a lot of time at hand can

1. revert to the article as it was before,
2. have a lok at Leewy0121's changes and additions and decide which are worth keeping, and
3. integrate those bits into the article in a more careful fashion?

Thanks a lot in advance! Wikipeditor 01:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poor image

I don't like the initial photo (of Baechu Kimchi). The image is much too close up, so that it is hard to identify. To tell the truth, at first I thought I was viewing an image of a fetus. Opinions?

--Philopedia 02:05, 9 March 2007 (UTC)