Talk:Known Space
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I've added in a table with all of the short stories and novels of Known Space from 1964 to 1975. It's at the bottom right now, but optimally it would be above the spoiler line. Given the sheer number of stories in the series, it may be prudent to break this list off to a separate page. (I looked for one, I hope there isn't already a book list elsewhere.) The list also need finished, but I don't have a ready and complete source for the remainder yet. Jrp 00:20, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- That's brilliant; I'm looking forward to the next tranche. Would it be feasible to also annotate the stories with a book in which they might be found? (For example Death by Ecstasy IIRC appears in The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton; I have no idea where else it might crop up.) This would help those wishing to read the stories without access to back catalogues of doubtless wonderful but hard-to-acquire magazines (and also those of us too poor!) --Phil | Talk 08:03, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)
- Yeah... I can do that. But there is some overlap and I don't necessarily know the most recent collection that a story appeared in. I'll add in what I have and I hope it can be edited with more recent data by someone who owns the collections that I'm not aware of. Jrp 11:48, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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- there IS a list of stories in chrono. order, but it's not complete. I have it at the start of "Three Books of Known Space" which includes World of Ptavvs, A Gift From Earth and Tales of KS. It runs from 1975-3100, and is updated up to stories as of 1995 or so.
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- Hmm, some of the stories are not, strictly speaking, in the Known Space universe. To quote the notes from Convergent: "Bordered in Black does not belong in the Known Space universe...When I wrote bordered in black, Known Space had not taken form." Larry then mentions some ideas from BiB were used later, like the Blind Spot. Same for "One Face" and some others.
- But, I've noticed at least 5 stories (Bordered in Black is one of them) where Larry mentions the "now discredited" theory ("fact" in the stories) that an earth sized planet needs a big moon to not have a super thick Venus-like atmosphere. In BiB this results in a small planet having an earthlike atmopshere but heavy clouds. In "There is a Tide" this results in Louis predicting the moon existance. In Protector this describes what planets are food planets. In one (forgot the title) a time traveler accidentally destroys Earth's moon and the Earth ends up like Venus. This seems to indicate a consistancy making "Bordered in Black" quite a strong cantidate for being a Known Space story if not actual Known Space canon, since KS changes as technology changes (Mercury's dark side is not "The Coldest Place", as it is not tidally locked). Should alternate futures discredit a universe? Overcee (from BiB) does reach a typical food-planet, using typical hyperdrive (but long prior to any slowboat colonization of extrasolar planets), and Niven does say in KS stories that humans could have built a hyperdrive if they'd bothered to experiment outside our local gravity well. Perhaps a subsivision of the list into "Canon" and "Mythos", the latter being older stories that are less acurrate and primitive, as well as not fitting in the timeline. 64.162.10.51 10:10, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
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While I'd have guessed it was a unique name, should I assume the Hal Colebatch who was an Australian politician who died in 1953 is not the same Hal Colebatch who was publishing science fiction in the 1990's? And if so, we should disambiguate the names. MK2 06:47, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- The link should point to Hal Colebatch jr, most likely (The politician was his father). Or possibly Hal Gibson Pateshall Colebatch, or Hal G. P. Colebatch (like is used to distinguish George Bush from W). I'll try it with Hal Gibson Pateshall Colebatch, if anyone knows what he uses officially (other than Hal Colebatch) go ahead and change it. 64.162.10.100
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[edit] "Final" story draft
Does anyone know the title of the draft final Known Space story in which someone goes to rendezvous with the Lazy Eight to retrieve Greenberg, who reveals that the Kzinti are in fact descended from the Tnuctipun? If so, can they stick the name in the article at the end where I mentioned it? — PhilHibbs | talk
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- I added a link to it on the main page. It is available to view in html on his officially "unofficial" webpage larryniven.org: Clicky Clicky.
- Niven states just before writing the main story "...remember, it's all a hoax". This implies that Kzin aren't tnuctip; then again, it's where his line of though is going, and presumably his image of the two, being the source material, sees the two as linked. Is this regression, decadence? See my earlier comment, section below... hmm. Firien
[edit] "... and what happened to the Tnuctipun."
Does anyone have a link to these debates? I had thought, from World of Ptavvs, that the tnuctipun had turned on their slavers, and until a second ago had thought they had died with them, though on second thought the attack was supposed to be fast enough to be decisive. I'd be interested in the various POVs on what may have happened to them (the mention of evolving into Kzin notwithstanding; some of the tnuctip technology just seems too advanced to justify being kzin, for example the morphing multitool; I don't see how a highly technological (and so presumably logical) civilisation would revert to hand-to-hand fighting, and not have the tech to defeat humans in multiple successive wars. Presumably the bandersnatch would know... Firien
[edit] Bandersnatch link
The bandersnatch link under Races points to the Lewis Carroll description. While this is probably where the name came from, it really should not point directly to that, since the other races point to their own descriptions. Just a thought. PerlKnitter 16:18, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "They Who Pass?"
"They Who Pass, entities from an other-dimensional universe who view the universe through cosmic strings but are unable to enter; non-canon."
If it's non-canon, what's it doing here? Is this something from the Man-Kzin Wars that several stories mention? Is it just something someone wrote fan fiction about and put here?
I'm pulling it, but I thought I'd put it up here in case it is something that's got a real connection to the universe through the Man-Kzin Wars stuff, which I mostly have not read. Zabieru 09:56, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
- "They Who Pass" are from a story in the Man-Kzin Wars books, though they only appear in one story of one book, I think either VI or VII. To me, they seem hightly reminiscient of the Outsiders, and I think that's who the author was trying to make them out to be. Personally, if they are supposed to be something other than Outsiders, I say they still aren't canon, as they appear in only one story and nowhere else. Leave 'em out. Phædrus 19:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
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- They Who Pass appear only in the novel-length version of A Darker Geometry, by Greg Benford and Mark O. Martin, where they are described as the creators of the Outsiders (and, indirectly, of the Ringworld as well). The short story version in Man-Kzin Wars VII doesn't mention them- they appear only in the novel, and Niven has never confirmed them as Canon to my knowledge.
Noclevername 01:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] ARM / Birth control and technology laws
I'm not at all happy about the description of the ARM as policing population control by hunting "women who refuse birth control". In at least one point in the canon Louis Wu remarks (to Teela?) about both men and women getting their birth control shots deactivated, and the point re-surfaces in later Ringworld novels too. Obviously there's an evidential issue there for the ARM as much as there always has been about paternity ("being a mother is a matter of fact, but being a father has always been a statement of opinion"). At other points in the Canon ("Long ARM"?), the jaundiced description of an impending mother-hunt suggests that the coppers (I mean ARM) would like to catch the errant sperm donors too. Larry's humanism seems to have got caught up in late-60s social expectations, and it's getting a bit tangled now. I never did understand the economics of Known Space anyway. A Karley 14:22, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
- The description of Earth was out-dated. By the time of Louis Wu, the organ-banks and the draconian legal system that made all crimes capital crimes had been discarded. This came about as a direct result of the human-turned-protector Jack Brennan manipulating human society in such as way as to promote alternative medical practices in order to extend life (including the development of boosterspice and making cloned organs cheaper), as well as the development of the science of psychistry itself. Appropriate changes have thus been made. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.84.19.246 (talk) 12:49, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Minor Changes
I was a huge fan of Niven for all the years of my youth (70s-80s). I've been making some minor changes to this article for some time now. For example, I'm trying to make the tenses consistent. Any feedback is appreciated. Markm62 07:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Planet pages
Shouldn't at least some of these planets get their own pages? And I think ARM certainly should. Kuralyov 05:46, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Fleet of Worlds
The upcoming novel Fleet of Worlds is in the Niven table. However, it's not yet out yet, and is set to be co-authored with Edward M. Lerner. Should such works have a separate table? And, should such a table be commented out until the first such fully coauthored Known Space story appear? Inquiring minds want a beer.... Abb3w 05:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
- I say it's fine the way it is. Kuralyov 03:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
