Talk:Kosovo War

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	This article is being improved by the Cleanup Taskforce to conform with a higher standard of article quality. It is likely to change frequently until completed. Please see its Cleanup Taskforce page for more details.
Cleanup Taskforce page → Edit | Purge [edit] Kosovo War This article is too long, lacks neutrality, and credible sources. Thank you for your time. Mieciu K 23:32, 20 June 2006 (UTC) Note: This taskforce request has not been updated for 6 months.

Contents 1 Kosovo War 2 "Task Force Hawk" 3 "...or dumped in the Danube." 4 Casualty numbers 5 Links 6 Good pages 7 Reply 8 Total Dead 9 Mieciu problem 10 Protected 11 Problems with Kosovo war article 12 Correct day 13 Argue as much as you want to 14 You are a criminal 15 ANSWER GIVEN 16 NATO Losses 17 Slight Bias 18 Casualties 19 Meaning of Veljko 20 Serbian Orthodox Church 21 Unprotecting 22 About NATO looses 23 What is "alleged" in a found mass graves? 24 As a result, the Serb police did very little officially for the next two months... 25 Self-Contradicting 26 Pictures? 27 Who won 28 "Of Course." 29 Ridiculousness of NATO Loses 30 Infobox and Pictures 31 Casus 32 Civilian casualties 33 Removing the "POV" and "verify" tags 34 One british SAS killed 35 For those who are interested about… 36 Can someone provide the revised rambouillet?

[edit] "Task Force Hawk"

There is only a small reference to Task Force Hawk in the Bombing campaign but not even by name.

The battalion secured Apache Attack helicopter refueling sites and a small team forward deployed to the Albania/Kosovo border to identify targets for Allied/NATO airstrikes.

Task Force Hawk was a battlion of Apaches with support unit as well as infantry, armor, field artillary, MP, and other units. I believe their was a Frontline special on Task Force Hawk a few years ago but I haven't see it.

Sam D Ware 16:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "...or dumped in the Danube."

Is there any person so dumb that he could believe it? Human body is not so etherial that it could dissolve in the water. Please, use your common sense.

EDIT BY GUEST:

CIA and the British Intelligence have found bodies in the water.

[edit] Casualty numbers

The Bosnian War article has a good section on casualties (both civilian and military) for the conflict as a whole and for the different sides. Is there any such information for the Kosovo War? I see links to all kinds of sources regarding deaths from NATO bombing but nothing on deaths from the war on the ground. Is there a source for the 10,000 killed Albanians? Is there any source at all for the number of killed Serbs? Roma and other?

It think it would be nice to get a nice comprehensive table of estimated and confirmed casualties. Osli73 23:20, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Is there anyone who has any sources on the number of civilians and military killed in the ground war in Kosovo? I haven't been able to find anything other than the 10,000 estimate, and even for that figure there is no information about how it was calculated, how many are military and civilian, how many are Serbs, Albanians and others. Anyone? Osli73 11:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

That is difficult to do at this stage, Osli73, because there are many still missing, and their families would not like to declare them as killed before any confirmed source says that. I will look into some confirmed numbers as of now, and will bring you some sources to look at. Until then, ilir_pz 11:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Just a quick web search found the following articles/discussions of the numbers killed. I don't know how good the sources are but most seem to say the following:

• approx. 2,000 persons (civilians and military) were killed prior to the NATO bombardment
• approx. 500 civilians killed by NATO bombing 'mistakes'
• perhaps another 1,000 civilians killed in Serbia as 'collateral damage'
• after the war most mention a figure of up to 10,000 persons killed
• some mention a total figure of approx. 3,000 persons killed.

The 'sources' I found were:

• Human Rights Watch
• Centre for Policy Studies
• Serb Orthodox Church in Kosovo
• article on "A Fistful of Euros"
• Human Rights Watch again

Osli73 11:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Playing with numbers of the dead is typical of politicians, so I would not like to speculate with such sensitive data. According to some statistics there are (still) about 1500 Albanians missing, so I am not sure where that number fits. I do not thinkg NATO bombing mistakes caused that many casualties. Those numbers have been manipulated with by the Yugoslav military and police for reasons that might be familiar to you as well. I am sure that other number of "collateral damages" is not accurate as well. this HRW article has also some contradicting numbers. On the other hand, this BBC article says that ICTY got reports of 11,000 people killed, but not all were confirmed. Not sure myself. ilir_pz 11:48, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

To give you an answe to your question I will quote the last article I gave above "How much higher is the final death toll likely to be? It is not possible to make any accurate estimates on the basis of what has been found so far because some of the mass graves yet to be opened up may contain many more - or many fewer - bodies than those exhumed so far. Besides, the ICTY says the investigators have found evidence of tampering with the graves, including the burning or apparent removal of the victims' remains." ilir_pz 11:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Ilir, I've found a couple of sources which might be of some help:

• Killings and Refugee Flow in Kosovo March - June 1999 (a report by the American Bar Association for the ICTY) stating that "An estimated 10 356 Kosovar Albanians were killed" (bottom of page 8) They state that "the process identified 4 400 unique individuals. The number 4 400 is not an estimate; it is the actual count of uniquely reported victims." (page 11)

• Summary of info on killed and missing persons from the Intl. Red Cross. Good overview. Here is also a link to ICRC list of killed/missing [1]

I think these sources could be used to improve the article.

Some more sources which could be useful:

• also has some good info/links on ethnic cleansing in Kosovo

• link to a good summary page

Osli73 08:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Links

First of all back then I think those people called themselves Yugoslavs, not Serbs, so let's put these things into a historical perspective. Second of all, if links are dubious in nature we can always post that it's dubious, but both sides must be heard. I am veteran of the Iraq war and I am sick of all the damn politicians and all the BS out there, way too many innocent died during Nato attacks and during "Iraqi Freedom" operation, remember the first casualty in war is the truth, I am also a historian and I was the first one to find out about NATO casualties, it was not here before, the ah-64 chopper, may 5th, wow there are so many mistakes, but I am not going to dwell into ethnic bs who is right or wrong, everybody is right or wrong to a certain point and I have no time for these games. However, certain things need correcting and certain web sites must be available on the main page. E.g. http://www.aeronautics.ru/natodown.htm As far as you Mieciu VANDAL Kapusta go... It was shot down but NATO and its forces never wanted to admit to it, would you ? They wanted to show how powerful they are. If a plane explodes in the air and there is a ball of fire, trust me, it was shot down... Now... these sites might be dubious or not neutral, but there is lot of info here we need to go over...

http://www.aeronautics.ru/nws001/crashes01.htm

Sorry to be pedantic, but I'm pretty sure that Serbs always called themselves Serbs, in much the same way as Scottish people would refer to themselves as Scottish, rather that British. Davu.leon 14:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Good pages

You said these pages are not working, may be your browser from your country can not access them...

• Two american pilots die in a crash on Kosovo/Albanian border

This links seems to be working today. WHO said AH-64 exploaded? Who and how claimed to shot it down? How far is Kosovo from Tirana?

The article says that the crash will not postpone deployment of apache's to the crisis area. But how many of them were EVER deployed to combat? The answer is NONE! It was estimated that there would be huge losses if the helicopters were engaged. So, if anyone knows that even a single one was sent to war, please write. 89.216.173.210 01:19, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

• Reports on NATO losses during 1999 Kosovo war, might not be neutral

This link is not only non neutral the picture placed there it is offencive. Can't you get a better link?

• Over 10 British soldiers die in Kosovo operations

~:This event did not happen during the Kosovo war. It happened after the war so the place of this link is somewhere else. Mieciu K 19:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The link clearly indicates the casualty of the conflict.

The title of this article is Kosovo War. The Kosovo war ended on June 11, 1999. These people died after June 11, 1999? And by the way Who said AH-64 exploaded? Who and how claimed to shot it down? How far is Kosovo from Tirana? Mieciu K 20:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Nie, kosovo war ended on june 11 and you had it until 10th all the time. The chopper exploded after it was hit, this was top of the line chopper, they do not malfunction and explode in the air out of the blue, rozumiesz?

Who apart from you claims the AH-64 exploaded? Are the guys who supposedly shot it down shy or something because the guys who shot down the F117 aren't shy and probably even got some medals for this achievement. Read this article Wikipedia:References and be kind enough to replay to my questions (in english). Who apart from you says the war ended on 11 July? Mieciu K 20:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

You are a complete idiot, FOR 2 YEARS THE END OF WAR ON THIS SITE WAS JUNE 10th, so I changed it to June 11th, stop putting words into my mouth dude, it seems to me you are part of nato and it seems you were there... I am not going to argue with you forever. I made discoveries not you, you want to revert, fine, I will be back to revert it to the appropriate position. What do you know about army and war strategy and procedure, nic, nothing. It was nato's strategy not to admit to anything to look invincible, this was shot down, search and look better, I explained already and it was 80 kilometers from Tirana, that means close to the border, Yugo forces were inside Albania, in order to stop KLA from entering and stopping them before it was too late. This is what it is, like it or not. And I dont care about f117.Did I mention that?

Do you call your parents "complete idiot"s if not why? Maybe because this phrase is considered an insult and we do not use insults on wikipedia it seems you are unfamiliar with the Rules of Wikipedia, if you put in content without any references it is considered vandalism. Why won't you answer my questions (which can be seen above)? Mieciu K 08:26, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me show you how the Serb viewpoint should look like. "According to ............. (+ serbian goverment source not some personal website/blog) the AH-64 was shot down by ............ (name of the unit) using an .......... (what did they use?) at ......... (time/place) as a result the helicopter ........ (what happened to the AH-64). What happened to the Yugoslav unit afterwards? Did they get any medals?" By the way commandoes do not carry anti-aircraft weapons, they relay on stealth, camuflage and luck instead. Even if they did it would be max. 1 MANPADS missile per 10 soldiers (they are heay and weight over 10kg each). Mieciu K 18:20, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

You are a confused person, because you are reverting what is given and explained, as you are doing with your own Katyn in Poland, calling you idiot is not vandalism because you are disrespecting other people's time, period, I told you 10 times I do not have time to explain you self evident truth, besides, I did not mention serbs claim, and assuming a serb claimed it crashed or not, how do we know he is neutral... I SAID AGAIN FOR THE FINAL TIME... I MENTIONED WHAT BOTH SIDES CLAIM THEY DID IT, AND of course on serbian sides they will claim they bombed it Mr. hypocrite, but I am not including their side because it's obvious they will report what they think and nato will report what they think, so think straight for a moment...

• Can you write that again? And this time use english. Mieciu K 22:00, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Total Dead

If somebody can check how many soldiers Yugos lost, according to my friend who is an analyst for CIA headquarters he claims Yugos reported between 560-600, but not 1000 and that was verified, I do not have time to search for that and then get reverted, at any rate, there were 3000 dead civilians across the land, but I am not sure if that included albanians killed by nato bombs or clusters.

[edit] Mieciu problem

Every time I've tried to explain this guy can not and does not want to cooperate and it seems to me, this guy is not neutral in any way. The above is a very good explanation,due to my time constraint... I can not write 10 paragraphs every day, in reply, he simply replied in a very rude and ignorant way... can I say that in English ? If he can say it in Polish, it will make some sense, so far, he has been vandalizing this page and he should be stopped asap.

• Wikipedia:Verifiability,
• Wikipedia:No personal attacks
• Wikipedia:Etiquette
• Wikipedia:Civility

I don't think you have read any one of those articles. Mieciu K 22:35, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I read them and you must learn from them, because above you told me I should write in English, clearly shows you lack of ethics, values, standards, understanding and so much, your reversals have no meanint and they are clearly not neutral and you keep on inventing new stories every time I revert it or even correct it... but when I ask about other topics, you do not have a clue... so, learn everything from the beginning, here's a thought, go back to kindergarten or ask your parents to reteach you manners. I said my peace, you can say what you want, hey I can give you 10 more links on the above, still, that does not help the situation, I have a feeling you were one of those nato forces? Your country was involved.

• Than why are you spreading misinformation? how many people can fly in one AH-64 helicopter? And why are you saying the war ended on 11th July? Nato stopped bombing Serbia on July 10th and that's when Operation Allied Force ended. Mieciu K 23:15, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

==Hmmm... this guy is a complete mess, again now he tells us the bombing ended on July 10th, this man is sick.

• Wikipedia:No personal attacks, calling me a sick man is not an argument. Mieciu K 12:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Correction, calling you sick after you can listen to a raeson is not an argument (true enough) but I am only stressing the point that this is true, you are a sick man.

(From Wikipedia:No personal attacks), "Specific examples of personal attacks include but are not limited to:

• Accusatory comments such as "Bob is a troll", or "Jane is a bad editor" can be considered personal attacks if said repeatedly, in bad faith, or with sufficient venom.
• Negative personal comments and "I'm better than you" attacks, such as "You have no life."

What you are doing (calling me a sick man) has a name... its called trolling. And of course it is also rude. Mieciu K 23:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Protected

The page has now been protected to force all involved parties to use the talk page to resolve disputes, rather than furthering this disruptive edit war. Once you have reached an agreement and protection is no longer necessary, please let me know or request unprotection. Thanks. AmiDaniel (talk) 01:57, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with Kosovo war article

This confused individual has been putting words into my mouth and into others, first he claims war ended on July 11th, then he removes all other info, you have to leave it like it was when Chopper 64 was shot down and 2 american servicemen killed, I never said they were shot down but I gave my best and most accurate assumption what might have happened SINCE NATO NEVER CONFIRMED IT OR DENIED, and as time went by they just did not want tot alk about, what does that tell you? It's time Mieciu K is blocked forever from wikipedia, since his country, poland, was part of nato attacks and he wants to look invincible. So it's time you unprotect it, remember this guy is going out of normal conversaion and he uses non-sense logic, comparing other things to God knows what and then putting words into my mouth, clearly very ignorant, when he replies like... Speak English and when I ask about other things to be looked at, he can never answer because he just does not know it. As you can see, the best version is in the link below. Let's have this done right without vandals like Mieciu. He has time for these games and I am sure his answer will make sense but only to a point. Again, both versions must be explained, what might have happened.

As you can see in his answers above, there will be no agreement with this confused individual

My answer: (About the AH64 crash) "This was a training mission - I want to insist on that - there is no indication of any hostile activity. This accident underscores the great risk that is shouldered by all the men and women associated with operation Allied Force, we salute all of them and our thoughts at the moment are naturally, as you would expect, with the families of the two pilots who lost their lives last night".By Jamie Shea, NATO Spokesman [2].

I do my best to follow these rules and guidelines:

• Wikipedia:Verifiability,
• Wikipedia:No personal attacks
• Wikipedia:Etiquette
• Wikipedia:Civility Mieciu K 12:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Correct day

The bombing stopped on June 10th, but the war came to an end on June 11th, let's get this straight.

• On June 10 1999 Slobodan Milošević agrees to withdraw Serbian forces from Kosovo (a de facto capitulation), and Nato stopped bombing Serbia. Why do you think the war came to end end on the 11th? What happened on that day? Mieciu K 12:23, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

It was on that day that both NATO and Milosevic declared the end of war, just because bombing stopped does not mean that many other secret operations were over. http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=FA0A1FFB3C5C0C728DDDAF0894D1494D81&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fS%2fSolana%2c%20Javier Just because bombing on Warsaw in September 1939 stopped, that did not mean the war was over, remember the 63 days uprising in Warsaw, hell on earth in Aug 1944, still, was that the end of war? Just because you find something on google or it's popular opinioN DOES NOT MEAN IT'S TRUE.

• This talk page is about the "Kosovo war" so let's leave other the Bombing of Warsaw during the IIWW out of it. Interesting link but it's second-hand infotrmation (paper newspapers usually comment things that happened the day before) this link is better:

"On 10 June 1999, after an air campaign lasting seventy-seven days, NATO Secretary General Javier Solana announced that he had instructed General Wesley Clark, Supreme Allied Commander Europe, temporarily to suspend NATO's air operations against Yugoslavia. This decision was taken after consultations with the North Atlantic Council and confirmation from General Clark that the full withdrawal of Yugoslav forces from Kosovo had begun. The withdrawal was in accordance with a Military-Technical Agreement concluded between NATO and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia on the evening of 9 June. The agreement was signed by Lt. General Sir Michael Jackson, on behalf of NATO, and by Colonel General Svetozar Marjanovic of the Yugoslav Army and Lieutenant General Obrad Stevanovic of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, on behalf of the Governments of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Republic of Serbia. The withdrawal was also consistent with the agreement between the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the European Union and Russian special envoys, President Ahtisaari of Finland and Mr. Victor Chernomyrdin, former Prime Minister of Russia, reached on 3 June." So in conclusion an agreement was reached on the 9th, combat stopped on the 10th, so (currently) I do not see areason why we should say that the war ended on the 11th. Any more arguments/links top support your theory? I looked thrue serbian govermrnt websites (in english and serbian) but I was unable to find any info on the day that the war ended according to Yugoslavia, or about shooting down an AH-64 on May the 5th 1999. Mieciu K 23:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Argue as much as you want to

Did you just say go on serbian government website, they talk about their life, things that happened today, not about 1999 tragedy, you are a vandal and this is true. http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/kosovo_crisis/nato/ Sites like this claim, prooven or not it was shot down, but I already explained that, you are beating around the bush again and again and again and repeating same things but in a different manner and way... Ok, war ended on June 11th and bombing is something else, it's obvious you do not understand anything.

• Why are you lying? The website that you have shown me contains the following information:

"BELGRADE, Yugoslavia (AP) - Two American Apache crew members were killed during a training mission Wednesday when their helicopter crashed in Albania, the U.S. European Command said. The deaths were the first NATO casualties in the air campaign against Yugoslavia. The command said there were no initial indications of hostile fire in the crash, 47 miles northeast of the Albanian capital of Tirana, and the cause of the crash was not immediately known. The names of the two crewmen were not released pending notification of next of kin. The crash was the second time an Apache helicopter has gone down during a training mission in Albania. The first copter crashed April 26 as NATO prepared to put the U.S. attack helicopters into action against Serb forces in Kosovo. Its crewmen escaped with cuts and bruises. See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2559431157-01d" And of course the 1999 Kosovo war was a tragedy, a tragedy caused by the stupidity of a dictator and his-half blind serbian nationalist friends who started a war (to keep in power) that was lost long before it started. You can mock my wikipedia user name but out of the two of us at least I have the courage to log in and sign my posts. What's wrong with you that you don't want to log in and sign your comments the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia is chasing you or something? Mieciu K 19:35, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] You are a criminal

First of all, I am an american, born and raised in Indiana, I lived in croatia 4 years when I was studying, you are a vandal and a criminal, nothing but garbage, put words in my mouth I AM A HISTORIAN WITH A DEGREE IN HISTORY, you are nothing, I am not pro or a con against what happened in the war, my stuff was neutral, the above attack clearly shows your one sided story, it clearly shows you are part of nato animals who killed over 3000 civilians, almost half of those albanians, those they supposedly came to protect, ok, if you have the courage, give me your full freaking name and address in poland, so I can visit you one of these days, you are not being objective or neutral with pure garbage above. Nothing but vandalism and hate and false attacks and then some...—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.99.2.90 (talk • contribs).

That is enough. There have been very unconstructive statements made here - by both parties - and it's not helping to improve this article. Please take this discussion elsewhere or, better yet, step back and cool off for a few days. Kafziel 20:50, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You tell him that, he is not doing anything about it and article is wrong, period, i simply asked him if he has courage to talk about it and he does not do anything about it, i am historian and i know what i am saying, ok...

Telling everyone you're an historian holds no weight on the Internet. You can't prove it any more than I can prove I'm the President of the United States. In any event, it doesn't give you the right to threaten others, or to post controversial information without proper citations. Kafziel 20:55, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

"I am a criminal"? Since I am a lawyer please tell me which laws have I broken? And are you threatening me? Why do you want to visit my house? Since I served time in a Polish elite reconissance unit of the 1st Warsaw Armoured Brigade from Wesoła, Poland your physical threats don't bother me. Mieciu K 21:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ANSWER GIVEN

First of all, in my reply above i say... "I simply asked him if he has courage to talk" now if that is a threat of any kind, including physical...you people need to include that in the new webster dictionary. And the above statement "I served in a Polish Elite unit" Tells me that this person is biased to neutrality WHICH I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO ESTABLISH HERE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING. His intentions and slick lawyer talk (prooving guilty before even going to court or assuming innocence) clearly indicates is objectivity towards NATO side.

Citations

Read my replies, read how neutral they could be, Kafziel you are not doing a good job as an administrator, when I tell you war was over on June 11th, legally, that's when it was ended,t he bombing can stop On May 11th, that does not mean it's over. Your statements about me being the president... It also makes no sense because if I were the president I would not bother wasting my time (as I have already done so, a lot) here, talking to people who do not grasp the point citation or not and it's not about citations. But about truth. Attacking me like Mieciu did is vandalistic behavior, putting words into my mouth, not to mention claiming July 11th as the end of war (above) and creating his side of events. Great, keep your own dates!

[edit] NATO Losses

Perhaps when this article is unlocked, the correct NATO losses could be put in. (46 Aircrafts, 6 helicopters, 8 unmanned aircraft, 182 cruise missles). [3]

• "The following are the official NATO losses data released by the Press Service of the Yugoslavian army:" This document is supposedly based on an official Yugoslavian army document, and where is the original document? Where, when by who was it published and what was the name of official document? Mieciu K 19:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, a cruise missile isn't a loss of an aircraft; it's a round expended. The figure of 46 aircraft and 6 helos seems high; as for the 8 unmanned drones, well, that's why they fly them. Do you have a detailed list? Does it tally with the NATO list for engagements? GABaker 2020Z 29 June 2006.

[edit] Slight Bias

Hello. I dont know much about this war. New Zealand (my country) served in it, but primarily as Peace Keeping forces.

However this article seems to have a slight bias against serbs. Serbs, last time I checked, are a nationality/ethnicity and while some organizations of serbian nationality committed atrocities, by consistently referring to them as "the serbs" this article smeels definitely of racist POV.

Its like saying that "the Sunni's" are the cause of all the troubles in iraq, or hating "the American's" for the actions of their government. Is someone addressing this? It seems we need a historian from a definably neutral country, or at least a qualified international historian. Cheers, --Havoc8844 02:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

An interesting point. The question is, what do you refer to the Serbian forces involved in the conflict as? JNA/VJ? True, there were some involved, but many of the forces of the ground, Serbian paramilitaries, were recruited from ultra-nationalist and occasionaly criminal gangs. There were also Kosovar Serbian police, (out of uniform) who were supplied with weapons and vitual carte-blanche to carry out intimidation, robbery and murder. This is not by any means to say that all Serbs, inside of Kosovo or in Serbia proper, were in favour of the war, or even of Milosevic himself, and it is not an attempt to whitewash the activities of the UCK, some of whom were undoubtedly involved in actions of dubious legality and morality. The simple fact of the matter, however, is that this was a conflict between Serbs and Albanians, both vying for claim to a land which they have traditionally each regarded as their birthright, and sole possesion. The use of the term Serb here is therefore, while certainly distasteful to those Serbs who wish in no way to be connected to the policies and activities of the Milosevic government, nevertheless justifiable without immediate assumption of racist undertone. Davu.leon 14:52, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties

The casualties listed are fairly accurate, though I remember the official statement in Serbian press that listed around 700 (not 1.000) Yugoslav combat fatalities. I think the civilian number was 5.000 (either inflated or possibly true if Albanians were counted in my oppinion). 13 destroyed tanks (of which only 6 declared lost due to NATO bombing - the rest were not explained but were probably lost to the KLA). The article does not mention KLA losses, however, that probably exceeded 1.000 men. It should be noted that this was not merely a bombing campaign, but also a low-intensity ground war on Kosovo between the Yugoslav Army & Police and the KLA.

As for NATO losses - the article f-117 mentions an additional f-117 heavily damaged and written-off.

Veljko Stevanovich 2. 7. 2006. 01:30 UTC+1

[edit] Meaning of Veljko

So Veljko, how to contact you?Ok, how many planes did your people shot down, also the last official day of war was June 11th when both Milosevic and Nato claimed it's over, signed, sealed and delivered, right? Just because bombs stop falling, does not mean it's the end.

• You claim that the war ended on July 11th, is it your own opinion or do you have any sources to back up your claim? Nato website says the war (Operation Allied Force) ended on July 10th. Mieciu K 00:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I studdied reports on the net about the air war from both sides and accepted only the ones with hard evidence as fact. So far the two aircraft filmmed are the only trully proven shot down. The second F-117 (a write-off after landing) was long rummored damaged during the bombing and now I beleve it was true since I found out that American sources acknowlaged it(actually at least three were rummored to have been damaged during the bombing apart from the one shot down - but I haven`t found any proofs for the others yet).

I do not entirely rule out that a few more (but only FEW) possibly fell in the neighbouring countries and were hushed-up, but until some proof is found it of course shouldn`t be included in encyclopedia.

Also I forgot to add - I`ve heared that there were several Yugoslav POWs to KLA (one of them a lieutenant if I recall correctly), probably (but I really dunno) many more KLA to Yugoslav army, and also three US soldiers with a Humvee. The soldiers were released, but the Humvee is still on open display in front of the Military Museum in Belgrade.

As for the contact - well, you`re communicating with me on this forum, are you not? (It would be nice of you to sign your name, or at least a nickname, though)

Veljko Stevanovich 9. August 2006. 17:40 UTC+1

[edit] Serbian Orthodox Church

When this page is unprotected, would someone please disabiguate "Serbian [[Orthodox Church]]" to "[[Serbian Orthodox Church]]"? Thanks! Disambiguation link repair - You can help! --Iggle 06:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unprotecting

As far as I can tell, there has been no substantive discussion on the differences over the past two weeks. I do notice however that the discussions further back than that were at times grossly uncivil. I request that the editors pursue their differences with civility in an attempt to find consensus. Attacks, such as acccusations of lying, "vandalistic behavior" and the like, are unacceptable and may have to be dealt with, if the participants cannot take a hint, by more pragmatic means.

I'm unprotecting this article. Happy editing. --Tony Sidaway 22:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] About NATO looses

I believe that both sides lie about their looses and that’s normal in war. Serbian side purposely exaggerated NATO looses from reasons of moral and NATO as usual never recognize their looses. It’s not the first time. As always the truth is somewhere in between.

As military freak I have some knowledge about modern warfare. In my opinion, Yugoslav air defense shot down maybe 10 NATO aircrafts and damaged between 40-60 aircrafts. The problem with confirming looses is that Yugoslav air space is very small and except in two cases (F-117 and F-16) the only proof of hits were peaces of various NATO aircrafts scattered all around the country. The planes that crashed outside Yugoslav territory were quickly recovered by NATO. I also believe that if you shot down cruise missile (which cost I don’t know, but surely millions of dollars), before it reaches its target, with Zastava 20 mm anti-aircraft cannon (which cost maybe few thousand dollars) that you can count that as loss.

The NATO looses could have been higher but it’s evident that Yugoslav air defense was hiding their positions and conserving ammunition and missile reserves in case of all out land invasion. In that case, NATO aircrafts would have to fly lower, in order to support advancing NATO troops and would automatically exposed their self to fire of Yugoslav air defense which was best equipped for covering heights to 3.000 m. --Marko M 07:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• As for the price of a cruise missile at that time I remmember some reliable press source writing that prices of different versions varied from 600.000 USD to 1 800 000 USD, but it can hardly be considered a victory, If a cruise missile was shot down all Nato had to do was send another, remember the difference between economies of Serbia and the USA. In my opinion it would be very hard if not immpossible to hide the figures of US planes shot down, after all it the US airforce has to answer to the congress (the budget), to the press, and there would be a lot of people (the ground crew, the pilots, the air traffic officials, the commanding officers, the guys at the spare parts depot) who sooner or later (after leaving the army) would leak the info to the press that on ______ day an _____ plane from the _______ unit did not come back to base. Mieciu K 09:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The relative sizes of the Nato/US and Serbian economies is not a good yardstick by which to define what is a loss and what is not. Couldn't it just be easier to just say that xx cruise missiles are estimated to have been shot down by YU air defences?KarlXII 11:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• If we can get some reliable sources that would be a good idea, but not in the battlebox (unless the V-1 are already being added to the World War II battleboxes), maybe as a note at the bottom of the page? I presume that at least some of the cruise missiles were not shot down but crashed due to mechanical or programming errors, or simply crashed into obstacles (they fly at low altitiude) like power lines. I remember one cruise missile for some unknown reason "landed" in a country bordering Yugoslavia. Mieciu K 11:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Mieciu, remember Rule number one. It's not my intention to start a long discussion. My opinion is based at first hand experience as someone who’s been bombed by NATO and on my conversation with my cousin who is colonel in Yugoslav Air Force. There won’t be reliably sources on this subject for many years. Only speculations. Look what happened with NATO report on military loses of Yugoslav army units during Kosovo War. --Marko M 13:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I have nothing against you or official Yugoslavian Army sources (but it should be stated that these numbers come from official Yugoslavian Army sources). I have not been bombed by NATO but I have seen photographs and listened to first hand reports of how Belgrade looked after 1999. If you are Yugoslavian could you please write something about how the perception of the war changed after the fall of Milosevic, this topic interests me a lot and probably other people too. As for the NATO report on military loses of Yugoslav army units during Kosovo War, yes they got tricked which is suprising since all Warsaw Pact armies paid a lot of attention to camuflage and dummy targets so it should not be a suprise for the US airforce. perhaps they have learnt a valuable lesson for the future. Mieciu K 13:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think, based on my opinion and people arround me who watch TV in Serbia and news press coverage, talk with people etc., that maybe Milosevic was bad to SERBIAN people, but NATO countries are, and going to be the worst scum in modern world history. They targeted our buildings, roads, factories and other, with a goal to destroy our nation. Numerous serbian lives were lost for the cause of The New World Order. And Serbian people will hate NATO countries as long as they will remember no matter who is on power in Serbia. 89.216.173.210 01:36, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

It would be just my personal opinion and if I understand correctly there is no place for personal opinions on Wikipedia. I’ll just say this. Two weeks ago, two American F-16, from US Air Force base at Aviano, landed on Batajnica military airport near Belgrade. They were welcomed by their colleagues, pilots of Yugoslav Air Force. If they, who fought against each other during the war, could find common language, it should be easy for us civilians to do the same. --Marko M 14:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• Good to hear this, take a look at this page Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history#Cruise missiles in the battlebox? I asked for comments and ot seems most of them were negative regarding mentioning Cruise missiles as shot down Nato equipment. Maybe you could take part in the disscussion? Mieciu K 00:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What is "alleged" in a found mass graves?

Some alleged mass graves were also found in Serbia itself, on Yugoslav military bases or dumped in the Danube. Someone please explain this phrase to me, honestly. (Yes, I remember the exhumations - these graves contained children, and not so much as a military but on a "police" grounds.) --HanzoHattori 09:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

In all of the recent Balkan wars evidence of massacres has been covered up and most likely in some cases faked, by all sides involved. There have been many proven cases of Serb forces removing bodies and disguising execution sites, (they have even been caught on camera by the BBC), and even the Racak massacre in Kosovo, one of the main catalysts for UN intervention, has been called into question as a possible set up by the UCK. Serbian authorities would no doubt claim that any mass graves discovered by the UN were faked for the purposes of propaganda, and it is not entirely inconceivable that some of them may have been. (Though the contention that it is the UN doing the faking is, frankly, laughable, and a sure sign of hysteric mania. Rather we would assume that parties from the opposite side of the conflict would gather bodies from various areas of fighting, dig a ditch and throw them in.) Therefore, commentators who have become familiar with the region tend to qualify their statements with words such as 'alleged', essentially to cover their ass in a situation where the truth of the matter is unclear, and may never be clear. I can understand your finding such rhetoric distasteful, however it is best to remain as impartial as possible, especially when the atrocities commited make it easy to dehumanise the people, and by extension the nation ,that was involved, exactly the type of thinking that contributes to the continuing cycle of violence and revenge.

[edit] As a result, the Serb police did very little officially for the next two months...

...The Serbs concentrated on diplomacy. This is not true. On the 24th March, Serbian forces entered the village of Gllogjan and attemped to do to the Haradinaj family exactly what they had done to the Jasharis: wipe them out down to the last child. The Haradinajs were prepared, however, and managed to fight back and eventually escape after nighfall. Three young men were killed by Serbian forces, two shot in the head while attempting to evacuate the school, and one shot in the back while fleeing. This was one of the events that lead to the outbreak of war, although it didn't gain as much notoriety as the Jashari murders, mainly because in Gllogjan, the Serbs were defeated, thus leaving fewer martyrs to rally the population. Davu.leon 12:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Sources, please!

Hello Mr. Sources - unfortunately my sources are original research, ie. interviewing people who were in Gllogjan on the day, including some who were used as human shields by Serb forces. Clearly this violates NOR, which is why I haven't amended the main article. Davu.leon 12:14, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Although there is this: http://www.cdhrf.org/English/Weekly/CDHRFReprotNo-401E.pdf, or this 'In March 1998, in their efforts to eliminate the KLA, Serb troops launched an attack on the rebel compound at Glodjane, using with helicopter gunships and armoured personnel carriers.', from http://www.iwpr.net/?p=tri&s=f&o=235663&apc_state=henitri2005. Davu.leon 12:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Self-Contradicting

The article is Self-Contradicting. NATO considered KLA terrorists - and they were never on the same side, despite having a common enemy in 1999. A similiar thing as USA and USSR in World War II. --HolyRomanEmperor 09:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey HRE - wrong again. Getting to be quite a habit, isn't it ;) The only person on the American/NATO side who refered to the KLA as terrorists was Robert Gelbard. He was fired the next day. The KLA was offically REMOVED from the US State Dept.'s terrorist list in February 98, before NATO moved in. Moreover, the KLA fed information about the position of Serb troops to NATO during the bombing campaign. So, as I said, wrong again. Don't you actually know ANYTHING about the conflict? Davu.leon 09:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures?

There is a great deal of text here, but little-nothing in pictures. Maps AT LEAST would be helpful. I myself am unsure exactly where "Slovic", "Albanian" and "Kosovo" locations are. Colonel Marksman 17:01, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who won

I am not touching it, since I do not know the details of the politics, but if there are any Yugos or independent reading this, who won really? Objectives of NATO:
1. Get referendum vote in 3 years 2. Have NATO Under control Kosovo... reality... after 70 days of bombing nato had no choice but to agree (since milosevic did not give up to withdraw the forces) there will be no referendum in 3 years and that Kosovo will be (at least on paper) part of Yugos. Also, UN has political administration of the province... that means politically Milosevic won and as usual he lost the media war, but he never cared much about it anyways.

[edit] "Of Course."

This whole article needs re-written in prose and wikified.

One line about the tactics that countered NATO high-tech says "Dummy targets were used very extensively. Fake bridges, airfields and decoy planes and tanks were used. Tanks were made using old tires, plastic sheeting and logs, and sand cans and fuel set alight to mimic heat emissions. They fooled NATO pilots into bombing hundreds of such decoys. NATO claimed that Yugoslav air force had been decimated. In reality, as it turned out after the war, most Yugoslav planes and armored vehicles survived unscathed. However, NATO sources claim that this was due to operating procedures, which oblige troops, in this case aircrafts, to engage any and all targets however unlikely they were real. The targets needed only to look real to be shot at, if detected, of course."

What the hell is that? Common, where in wikipedia are there articles written to read like a conversation other than this line in bold? In fact, I'm almost creeped out by it: its like someone wrote that solely to say "hey, just make something look like a target, we can distract them that way."

[edit] Ridiculousness of NATO Loses

The article states that "NATO loss three helicopters, 32 unmanned air vehicles (UAVs) and five aircraft — all of them American, including the first stealth plane (a F-117 Fighter Bomber)" This statement is so untrue.

If they took down a stealth plane, and moreover I am certain that they took down more than one, why couldn't they take down weaker planes?Overhere 02:26, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• Weaker? The F-117 was the slowest and least agile combat plane in NATO's inventory in 1999. Since when are deaths and injuries "ridiculous"? This is your opinion and we do not add opinions to wikipedia articles, If you know about any reliable sources saying which Nato aircraft, when, where and how were shot down, please share those sources with us. Mieciu K 16:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The F-117 weakest plane of NATO in 1999? You have a wild imagination. What in the world do you think the NATO had, F-007 Satellite bomber?

"Since when are deaths and injuries "ridiculous"?" I think you had trouble understanding what I was writing about because I have no clue as to what in my statement you are contradicting here.

And what exactly is my opinion here? And what do you consider reliable sources - the CIA, FBI? The reason that there aren't many Serbian sources is because although they are witten in the same alphabet, they are mostly in Serbian. If they weren't, I am sure that you would be the first one to post a comment on that site saying that they are biased and lying.Overhere 21:49, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• "Weakest plane" is not the kind of language an expert would use, I am just saying that the F-117 has many shortcomings like it's small speed and bad agility. If you have any official Serbian sources be so kind and present them. I and probably many other wikipedians have some knopwledge of the Cyrillic alphabet so i should be able to understand the text. But again this is an encyclopedia so we need precise and reliable information. And what makes you think that Nato could hide the loss of fighter jets costing millions of USD it would be difficult if not impossible while the US defence spendings are publicly known and checked by the congress. Mieciu K 22:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

F-117 speed and agility may be consider as minor defects now but in 1999 F-117 was one of the best plains, and it was a huge deal when he was shot down.

Like you pointed out, it would be a waste of time to argue over Serbian language sites because they can't be included on the site.

I still don't get what do you mean by reliable information - NATO, CIA, Fox news...?

"And what makes you think that NATO could hide..." If you examine what they did in wars then and what they do now, covering up their real money expenses from the people that work for them is nothing but a phone call away.Overhere 23:37, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• • F-117 is overrated, when detected it is in serius danger from surface to air missiles.

No I did not, Serbian language sites can be added:
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) "Since this is the English Wikipedia, webpages in English are highly preferred. Linking to non-English pages may still be useful for readers in some cases:

• when the website is the subject of the article
• when linking to pages with maps, diagrams, photos, tables; explain the key terms with the link, so that people who do not know the language can still interpret them
• when the webpage contains key information found on no English-language site"
  

Reliable information:Wikipedia:Reliable sources It is very hard to hide a loss of a modern fighter jet weighting many tons and costing tens of millions od USD, it can be possible in an undemoctratic country but not in the US. "the people that work for them" The republican senators worked for the democratic secretary of defence? Mieciu K 23:50, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

• First of all, you don't have a clue as to what the USA can do, you seem to believe everything you hear at Cnn's America news at 6.

Reliable information:Wikipedia:Reliable sources- This doesn't answer anything. Who exactly do you consider a reliable source for this article?

And as for Serbian citation, here is a site that pooped up on the first google page: http://www.novosti.co.yu/code/navigate.php?Id=10&status=jedna&vest=82270&datum=2005-11-25

The article starts of with soldiers description of the night when they took down F-117. It also mentions that later on another f-117 was extremely damaged, and then later a B-2 was destroyed (which was confirmed by US). Due to the newly discovered weakness of f-117, which you also mentioned, a US deal to sell 30-50 f-117s was canceled. Overhere 00:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Read the F-117 that one was shot ove Serbia was never denied, info on another one surfaced later, as for the B-2 shot down. Where are the photo's of the wreckage? And where is the US confirmation. Also these soldiers giving the interview did not shoot down those planes, the Serbian Army did, so try to find some official Serbian Army referencess. Mieciu K 01:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• B-2 didn't fall in Serbia, so the US had the access to the wreckage and they easily took all the remains. That B-2 was taken of the US list which means that he somehow just disappeared.

You honestly believe that the US is some honorable democrat.

And so far you kept avoiding to answer a single one of my questions.Overhere 02:44, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• The supposed "B-2" did fall in serbia [4] according to the "Freedom Fighters", so where are the pictures? "That B-2 was taken of the US list" that's interesting never heard of it, show a US military document as proof please, currently all 21 B-2's are accounted for. Us is a democracy - read the democracy article. Which question am I not answering? And by the way I am not anti-Serbian, I am just a sceptic and I do not like badly sourced conspiracy theories and propaganda. Mieciu K 11:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

My article stated that B-2 fell in “istocna Slavonija” so don’t try to turn things around.

First of all because you keep avoiding to answer my questions I will answer one of them for you - You believe that the only reliable sources are the once from NATO and the US (correct me if it’s not so). Therefore anything that I would give you in Serbian you would say "Well lets see a US military conformation".

If there is one thing that US has it’s the huge power over it’s media.

You claimed you "are not anti-Serbian", You sure are: First, you understand Serbian (and I am positive that you not Serbian) which means that you are either Croatian or Albanian.

Or Bosnian or Montenegrin or Slovakian or Polish or Russian, to name but a few who can reasonably understand the general ideas behind Serbian language. Even as an Irishman who learned a little Russian in school I can puzzle out some Serbian. Sorry to interrupt. Davu.leon 20:57, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Not quite. Montenegrin is Serbian, while Bosnian is as close as it gets (I am technically Bosnian, but I always refer to myself as Serbian). Those languages may be close but you would need aditional knowledge to understand them.65.95.79.176 21:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

You’re like a Sunni trying to look neutral with his opinion about a Shiite. Second, you dismiss any Serbian reports if they weren’t confirmed by the NATO reports.

If you are such a skeptic why don’t you look into what the reasons for going into Iraq where, and just what the state is there now.

“I do not like badly sourced conspiracy theories and propaganda.” – I’ll give you a whole list of how bad a source the CIA is.

And because this is getting nowhere I’ll get to the point. The following is a conclusion from the article on Kosovo war and has not one of my statements. “NATO used F-117s, and way more powerful planes to bomb Serbia. During the bombing they killed thousands of people, while the Serbian army had survived in good order because the billions of dollars of technology which we know that can detect whether or not North Korea used a nuclear bomb or not, nevertheless could not distinguish between plastic and metal!?”

If you are going to turn of topic like you did before – don’t bother. Overhere 18:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• I am Polish and I learnt Russian at school so I have some knowledge of Serbian alfabet but almost non of Serbian language. Wikipedia is not about truth it is about verifiability so do not add information that cannot be verified to this article (Wikipedia:Verifiability). "you dismiss any Serbian reports if they weren’t confirmed by the NATO reports" no I don't there is a difference between official NATO information, and some Serbian unofficial newspaper reports and private websites. If you have Serbian military reports be so kind and present them, they wpuld make this article more interesting. Nato wanted to win this war and it won it with 0 combat losses. "During the bombing they killed thousands of people," sources please. If you want to disscus the Iraq war or any other war go elswhere Wikipedia is not an Internet chatroom. "If there is one thing that US has it’s the huge power over it’s media." you are wrong, read Freedom of speech in the United States Mieciu K 19:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is not about truth" OK???. When you put it that way I guess I'll drop most of my arguments. Nato obviously has more verifiability.

But you clearly don't have any clue about US. "democracy","Freedom of speech in the United States"-sounds very nice on paper.

Tell me what's wrong with my sentence above.“NATO used F-117s, and way more powerful planes to bomb..."Overhere 20:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

• Because writing that a plane is "powerful" is unencyclopedic. The types of planes that took part in this campaign have already been mentioned. Mieciu K 20:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok? I'll substitute "more advanced planes' for "more powerful planes"Overhere 20:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Try something like 'during the war NATO utilised military hardware which was technologically far more advanced that that available to the Serbian VJ or MUP. The planes used included the F-117 stealth bomber, and.....' etc. Saying that there were 'way more powerful planes' sounds like the angry rant of a dissapointed child. This is an encyclopedia, not your personal blog. Your english is very good, but you need to be careful that your phrasing conforms to wikipedia rules. Davu.leon 21:10, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree I was thinking about proposing the similar wording. Mieciu K 21:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Alright, if I change it a bit and I "word it technically" nobody has any objections if I put it under the "Criticism of the Case for War"?Overhere 21:34, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that is a good idea "Criticism of the Case for War" section is about law issues, not about military equipment exept for equipment that can be described as a weapon of mass destruction or in another way harmful to the civilian population. And Nato combat planes were not weapons themselves, they were weapon carriers. Mieciu K 21:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Seeing that the section "Reaction to the war" criticizes NATO's methods, the following would fit better under that section.

"NATO's real targeting is questioned due to the following: During NATO's bombing campaign NATO used extremely advanced planes such as the F-117 Stealth fighter, and the B-2 bomber and highly precision missiles. During the campaign they killed five thousand Serbians (according to Serbian sources(if you want to mention the other number of casualty claims that's fine with me)), while the Serbian army had survived in good order. NATO claims that the reason for that is because most of the targets hit in Kosovo were decoys, such as tanks made out of plastic sheets with telegraph poles for gun barrels. This is highly controversial due to the fact that the NATO technology is so highly advanced, that they are able to detect whether or not North Korea conducted a nuclear test, while here they claim that they were unable to distinguish between plastic and metal."Overhere 01:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

• Removed this paragraph from the article, this is not a newspaper where you can put your views (Wikipedia:Neutral point of view), add sources to all controvwercial statements. That this article is already badly referenced is not a reason to make it worse. Mieciu K 23:55, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

"your views","add sources" - You are either joking or you are an idiot.

What exactly is my view here?- all of this was mentioned somewhere else in the article so stop that "this is your view" and "add sources" crap.

If you don't give a reasonable reason as to why this is my pov then I am putting it back.Overhere 13:29, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• First don't call me names it's rude and against Wikipedia:Etiquette. Fine if it is not your original research than you should have no problem whatsoever referencing that paragraph like you should:
  

"NATO's real targeting is questioned^{[citation needed]}(by who?) due to the following: During NATO's bombing campaign NATO used extremely advanced planes(that's childish and unencyclopedic language) such as the F-117 Stealth fighter, and the B-2 bomber and highly precision missiles. During the campaign they killed five thousand Serbians^{[citation needed]} (which Serbian sources?) (according to Serbian sources(if you want to mention the other number of casualty claims that's fine with me)), while the Serbian army had survived in good order^{[citation needed]}. NATO claims that the reason for that is because most of the targets hit in Kosovo were decoys^{[citation needed]}, such as tanks made out of plastic sheets with telegraph poles for gun barrels. This is highly controversial due to the fact that the NATO technology is (is or was?) so highly(spot the redundant word) advanced, that they are able to detect whether or not North Korea conducted a nuclear test (??? is that an opinion of an expert or your own? what does ad 2006 nuclear test monitored by the United Nations have to do with ad 1999 detection of serbian tanks by NATO?), while here they claim^{[citation needed]}(who claims?) that they were unable to distinguish between plastic and metal (dummy targets are sometimes very advanced and inclued heat, infrared and electromagnetic emmiters, such inflatable targets cost sometimes thousands of dollars how can you be sure that the serbian decoys were made of plastic and metal?)."

• What part of it's already in the article don't you understand?

Seeing that you didn't read the article I'll tell you where to look.

Wikipedia-Kosovo War-Consequences of the war-Civilian Casualties- "Yugoslavia claimed that NATO attacks caused between 1,200 and 5,700 civilian casualties." (that is the citation)

Wikipedia-Kosovo War-Military casualties and losses- "Despite the heavy bombardment, NATO was surprised to find afterwards that the Serbian armed forces had survived in such good order."(that is the citation)

Wikipedia-Kosovo War-Military casualties and losses- "Most of the targets hit in Kosovo were decoys"(that is the citation)

Wikipedia-Kosovo War-Military casualties and losses- "decoys, such as tanks made out of plastic sheets with telegraph poles for gun barrels."(that is the citation)

(Korean test)- (not my opinion - read the news sometimes) - Google-news- US confirms north korea (you get around thousand articles)

If US is able "to use highly sensitive satellite technology to detect radioactivity in North Korean air" - they should be able to detect and distinguish plastic tanks and telegraph poles from real tanks. (Nuclear blasts are detected measuring radiation levels are Serbian tanks radioactive?Mieciu K 19:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC))

If you think that some of my wording is nonencyclopedic or nonexpert - by all means change those words.Overhere 17:35, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• That entire paragraph was in my opinion unencyclopedic as it does not add any new information to the article, I thought about it for many hours before I decided to remove it entirely. Mieciu K 19:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• • "Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. (Wikipedia:Verifiability) and I am using that right. Wikipedia itself as a source is not reliable. Mieciu K 19:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, if you are so big on sources why isn't it that you deleted the above information from the article where I got it from. You are basically saying that the information is ok here but not true there? If you deleted my statement because it's untrue why don't you delete the same statements from the rest of the article?

• Because you have to start somwhere, I started from your unsourced statements. And I don't have much time, and I am sick and tired of being called names or even threatened by pro-serbian editors, this is why I do not add contenet to the Kosovo War article. Mieciu K 22:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

"Wikipedia itself as a source is not reliable", "Wikipedia is not about truth" - Well then why do you keep pushing for some "expert encyclopedic terms".~

• Because I don't want this article to get worse than it is already.Mieciu K 22:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome to change the wording to "your terms"(whatever they are)

And unless you have a good reason as to the falseness of my paragraph, i am adding it back. Otherwise you are justifying to delete most of that article. I could easily use your citation terms for 3/4 of the article-including the places from where I got my statements. Overhere 21:49, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

• • "Editors adding new material to an article should cite a reliable source, or it may be challenged or removed by any editor. (Wikipedia:Verifiability) is this serious enough? Mieciu K 22:57, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. I reread your arguments, and they are laughable (all you wanna do is write something of topic and have the final word) so I'll stop this waste of time.Overhere 23:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox and Pictures

I updated the infobox as much as I could but it still needs a picture, a expanded casus belli, and more accurate casultie numbers. --Gw099 01:30, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The infobox is a mess.

Firstly, the casus belli is wrong - NATO entered the war because of the massive ethnic cleansing conducted by the Serbian Government - over 800,000 Albanian Kosovars had been displaced by the end of the bombing campaign. This needs to be reflected here.

Secondly, citing Ibrahim Rugova as a commander of the UCK is outrageous. Rugova was in no way involved with the KLA, in fact he at first claimed that they were an invention of Serbia intended to dicredit him. It would be more correct to have some of the KLA general staff, although they themselves had no real Command authority over most of the operational zones - so citing them as Commanders is disingenuous. Perhaps we should simply to have the NATO commanders, as it is impossible to convey in a small space the complexity of heirarchy in the KLA, which was a village-by-village insurgency. The simple fact of the matter is that there was no real centralised command in the KLA, though it would be far better to name even Hashim Thaci or Agim Ceku than Rugova, as at least both of these people were at one point members of the KLA.

And as a side note, the war didn't start until 1998. Before then there was a low-level insurgency, with little open conflict and no full scale battles. Davu.leon 10:47, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Please everybody involved calm down. Often 'leaders' are intended as political leaders, so the the only thing is it has to be consistant - political leaders or military leaders. Second let's not have an edit war over the infobox. Best way might be to do some drafting work here, on the talk page, get some consensus, and then put up what we can all agree on - and cite. 'Horseshoe', for example, is probably a great thing to mention, but (I don't know the sources) may have to be 'X reported that, ... blah blah' and then citing the actual newspaper article (or better, a scholary text) Let's try and work together on this - that's what collaberation of the fortnight is about. Cheers 210.54.239.45 20:55, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, operation Horseshoe is a great thing to mention - in the context of unsubstantiated Western claims that led to the war ;-) Also, "NATO entered the war because of the massive ethnic cleansing conducted by the Serbian Government - over 800,000 Albanian Kosovars had been displaced by the end of the bombing campaign." It's well documented that the massive outflow of people started after the bombing began - so how can it be the casus belli? // estavisti 21:34, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

The massive outflow started after the bombing yes, because international monitors who had been put there to report on the ongoing ethnic cleansing by the Serbs had to withdraw. That is not to say that many thousands had not already been displaced, merely that the Serbs stepped up their efforts once they thought they had nothing to lose by doing so. Ethnic cleansing of the ethnic Albanians by Serb forces WAS the casus belli for NATO, whether you like it or not. Davu.leon 10:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Rugova was credited for not supporting the violent uprising as far as I can remember. Some sourcing on the reason for this intervention would be useful + sources. Any official documents from NATO available? Wandalstouring 22:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the casus belli in the infobox is too black-and-white, following the NATO and KLA line. Both organisations are politically motivated, and the KLA's motivations are deeply questionable given its proven extensive links to organised crime across Europe. The Kosovo conflict was much more complicated than most of the Western media made it out to be, e.g.;

http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0109&L=twatch-l&D=1&O=D&P=8700

KOSOVO ALBANIAN POLTICIAN GUNNED DOWN IN FRONT OF FAMILY

Pristina, Sep 3, 2001 -- (Agence France Presse) Attackers in Kosovo gunned down an ethnic Albanian politician in front of his family over the weekend, a United Nations spokesman told AFP on Monday.

Corin Ismaili, 47, whose party was reportedly loyal to former Yugoslav hardliner Slobodan Milosevic, died in hospital in Pristina after the attack at the hands of unknown assailants at his home in Gornje Godance, around 25 kilometers (15 miles) south of the regional capital, Andrea Angeli said.

Ismaili was secretary of the Democratic Initiative of Kosovo, the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) spokesman said. The Beta news agency said the party was loyal to Milosevic.

United Nations authorities -- who have administered the province since Belgrade's troops pulled out in June 1999 -- said they had found several cartridge cases from Kalashnikov assault rifles at the scene of the killing.

UN officials have launched an inquiry into the attack. 217.134.116.65 17:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

1. Serbian Government is not politically motivated? 2. Define, exactly, NATO and KLA political motivation. 3. "Proven extensive links..." With all due respect, this is utter nonsense. There are NO proven links between the KLA as an organisation and organised crime. Certain individuals may have been involved in both, but just because Marko Milosevic was a criminal doesn't mean we can claim that Serbia has proven extensive links to organised crime. 4. The western media are well aware of the complexity of the Kosovo conflict. See Tim Judah, Kosovo War and Revenge, or just about any other book published on the period. 5. Your news report from 2001 is bafflingly irrelevant. Plenty of Milosevic's former allies were gunned down in Serbia too - exactly what are you trying to prove here? 6. Why no username? Are you one of the Serb nationalists who was banned in the recent Arbitration? If not, please create a profile so people will be able to identify you in future. Davu.leon 09:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The diocese is merely replicating a text from the New York Review of Books by Tim Judah, whom you yourself have used as a source. What's the problem? Do you ignore sources you don't like? Are you seriously suggesting the Serb Orthodox Church made up the article, or changed the text? If you want to verify it, feel free to pay for access to the article on the NY Review of Books website. // estavisti 14:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Fine, having skimmed the article, I see one reference that states 'Certainly the KLA has taken money from the Kosovo Albanian mafia but this does not make the KLA, per se, a drug-smuggling organization'. So if you want to add that the KLA has recieved money from the Albanian mafia, fine, put it in, citing Tim Judah as a source. However, be sure you put it in the right place, perhaps on the KLA page, (I really don't see how it's relevant information in the sentence in which you inserted it,) and be sure to cite it as just ONE of the sources of KLA funding. Judah never suggests that this was the KLA's sole financial resource. Davu.leon 15:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Casus

OK, I do not want to engage in an edit war, even when one person is blatantly pushing their POV, so I'll just let the article stay as it is, for now.

1. How can an uprising by one section of Kosovo Albanian society that hasn't even resulted in independence be characterised as a "war of independence"? That's just as bad as the other guy's version which characterised it as a "secessionist war"? Pushing those phrases is pushing an implicitly biased point of view. On the other hand, the version I proposed ("KLA uprising against the Government of Yugoslavia") doesn't imply anything about the KLA, the Government of Yugoslavia, or the nature of the war. So why is it being removed?
2. The casus belli was not the alleged "violation of ethnic Albanians' human rights by the Government of Serbia". The reason given for going to war was that ethnic cleansing and genocide was occurring - which was shown to be false. So, the NPOV way of presenting this is as "alleged ethnic cleansing".
3. Was it a NATO victory? I don't think so. At Rambouillet (before the bombing), Yugoslavia was basically offered NATO military occupation of the whole country and an independence referendum in Kosovo after 3 years. At Kumanovo (which stopped the bombing), it was agreed that only Kosovo would be occupied, and there was no word on independence. So, after 78 days of bombing, the mightiest military alliance in history made concessions to one of the poorest states in Europe (at that time), that was only just recovering from the economically devastating trade embargo of the early 1990s. And that's a victory? Finally, characterising NATO troops as "peacekeepers" is POV. It may be a widely held POV, but it is POV nonetheless. The neutral way of describing military personnel is "troops". --estavisti 17:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice to see that the article has been edited countless times since I posted this, with precisely ZERO replies to contribute to the debate. --estavisti 03:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Apologies for the delay. On your first point, it was a war of independence, at least as Kosovo characterized it. Ethnic cleansing and some genocide did occur against ethnic Albanians in Kosovo (and against ethnic Serbs too). It was a smashing NATO victory. Kosovo is just months to a year or so away from independence. We would have never arrived at this political situation had NATO not prevailed.UberCryxic 19:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

No, not as Kosovo characterised it. As most of Kosovo's Albaians chracterised it. Either way, that's POV - to state one group's characterisation of the war as fact. "Some" genocide? Source? And how was it a NATo victory? You didn't answer my point about the Kumanovo agreement, that ended the bombing, being much more favourable to Serbia than the pre-bombing ultimatum offered at Rambouillet... And Kosovo's future status is still unclear. This whole year all the "reputable" sources were telling us it would be independent by the end of 2006. Now the resolution of the issue is being pushed back (by Kofi Annan himself), so that just shows how much we can trust those so-called "reputable" sources. Try reading something you disagree with. You might learn something... --estavisti 21:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Civilian casualties

The section states that:

"The largest mass grave so far found is in Dragodan, an Albanian suburb of Priština; those bodies so far identified are of Gypsies and Albanians."

According to UNMIK this is not a "mass grave" and bodies have been of both Albanians, Serbs and Roma. In light of this I'm removing the sentence. If someone has a newer (official) source which says differently I am willing to accept that, of course.

[edit] Removing the "POV" and "verify" tags

The POV and Verify tags are only supposed to be temporary measures due to specific complaints. Knowing what these are would help in getting started on adressing them. If we don't have such a list of specific complaints, then we can't justify having the tags there.KarlXII 11:35, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Can we remove the POV tag? The arbitration case has already been decided and closed and according to the history of the talk page here, there has been very little discussion regarding neutrality (in fact, very little regarding anything) for a while now.--WilliamThweatt 15:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] One british SAS killed

Source :

Encyclopédie des forces spéciales du monde, tome 2, Jean-Pierre Husson, Histoire & Collections, Paris, 2001, ISBN 2913903150, p. 95 :

Texte original in french :

Le sergent Robert Lyon, du 22nd SAS, trouva la mort durant un accrochage avec les forces serbes. Les autres membres de son équipe purent être exfiltré en Bosnie, où 2 d’entre eux, qui avaient été blessés avec lui furent soignés à l’hôpital de Siporo avant d’être rapatrié en Grande-Bretagne.

The sergeant Robert Lyon, of 22nd SAS, found death during a fixing with the Serb forces. The other members of its team could be ‘’exfiltré’’ in Bosnia, or 2 of them, which had been wounded with him were neat at the hospital of Siporo before being repatriates in Great Britain.

[edit] For those who are interested about…

…the article Serbophobia has been nominated for deletion for the fourth time. If you care, go there and place your vote. That’s it.--MaGioZal 11:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can someone provide the revised rambouillet?

the article makes many claims about this but does not source the document, i have tried searching for it but only find the original rambouillet without any revision by the serbian side. does someone possibly have any access to this? full text would be preferable. thank you in advance

I've waited about a month for someone to post a link to this, and I will delete the following part of the article as there are no citations to prove this claim, despite the fact that it is all stated as fact: If the accords did not go far enough to fully satisfy the Albanians, they were much too radical for the Serbs, who responded by substituting a drastically revised text that even the Russians, traditional allies of the Serbs, found unacceptable. It sought to reopen the painstakingly negotiated political status of Kosovo and deleted all of the proposed implementation measures. Among many other changes in the proposed new version, it eliminated the entire chapter on humanitarian assistance and reconstruction, removed virtually all international oversight and dropped any mention of invoking "the will of the people [of Kosovo]" in determining the final status of the province. Even the word "peace" was deleted. The Serbian delegation must have known that the new version would never be accepted by the Albanians or the Contact Group. It was immediately apparent that Milošević had decided to call NATO's bluff, believing that the alliance would either not make good on its threat or would do no more than launch a few pinprick raids that could easily be absorbed. Perhaps most fundamentally, Milošević appears to have calculated that he had more to lose by making peace than waging war — although the KLA threat had not yet been eliminated, its defeat was nonetheless just a matter of time, to his mind, in the face of the far more powerful Serbian and Yugoslav security forces.