Talk:Law of the United Kingdom

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[edit] Versions

The new "version" by Wikidea (talk • contribs) had 10 references compared to none before. The old version favoured by mais oui! (talk • contribs) starts off "There is no actual law of the United Kingdom" which is laughable, and deterioates from there. Does any other user prefer the Mais oui version to the wikidea version? Tim! 11:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop being so derisory. There are numerous flaws with the Wikidea version: firstly, and most seriously, it is merely a cut and paste job from our other articles (hence those ten refs) - which basically means that the entire article is just one big fork. Secondly, it must be made crystal clear, right at the start, that there is no such thing as a "UK legal system". There is UK legislation, but we already have (a rather crap) article on that. I have numerous other problems with the rewrite: it contains unsourced editorialising (WP:OR), it confuses "judicial system" with "legal system" (a judicial system is just part of an entire legal system) and it, frankly amazingly, conflates Northern Ireland law with English law.

The pre-Wikidea version may have been bare, but at least it was accurate, and not a massive big misleading fork.

The opning sentence should perhaps be "There is no actual legal system of the United Kingdom", rather than ""There is no actual law of the United Kingdom". Please note that law, legal system and judicial system are not the same things. -- Mais oui! 11:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Even if this article contains information duplicated in other articles, that in itself is not a reason not to give an overview of those topics in this article per Wikipedia:Manual of Style. It is an oversimplification to there is no UK legal system as there are various courts with UK-wide jurisdiction such as the Judicial Committee of the House of Lords (soon to be Supreme Court of the United Kingdom. I disagree that it conflates NI law, it just does not give an overview in the same it does of English and Scots law. This can be remedied. The pre Wikidea version was barely more than a disambiguation page. Tim! 11:24, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope, the House of Lords most certainly does not have "UK-wide jurisdiction". If you are convicted of a crime in Scotland you cannot appeal to the House of Lords: the buck stops in Edinburgh. -- Mais oui! 11:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

It does in civil matters, I hope you are aware of that if you wish to continue editing this article. Tim! 11:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course I am aware of that. Why on earth do you think I cited "crime"? Stop being so patronising and derisory. You are not the gatekeeper of who can or cannot edit articles here at Wikipedia, see WP:OWN. -- Mais oui! 11:46, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:KETTLE again, just read your own comments about Wikidea. Vandals and POV-pushers are not permitted to edit. Tim! 11:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion you just stepped over the boundary there into a straightforward personal attack. Are you accusing me of being a vandal? And as far as "POV-pushing" is concerned, you are one of the worst offenders around here. Go and read WP:KETTLE yourself. -- Mais oui! 11:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah right, I'm not the person who removes every single reference to United Kingdom I can lay my hands on. Tim! 11:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:NPA makes it crystal clear that you should confine your comments to Wikipedia content: "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks will not help you make a point." -- Mais oui! 12:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I have just found another absolute stinker: Wikidea's version had a section on the "Parliament of Northern Ireland"?!?!? C'mon!! - that is just a really worrying sign that the author is making it up as they go along. -- Mais oui! 11:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Please both settle down, we can all be friends! For what it's worth, this is my cut and paste job. When I was doing the law page, I put in those templates for legal systems around the world under the jurisdictions section. These are generic templates used for all sorts of subjects, not just law, on Wikipedia. Being a Brit, I thought that the UK law page (which is the only link there) could do a bit better so I cut and pasted, and I personally think that this page is good merely as a redirect, and hopefully to explain what a unique, historically driven system of Parliament and courts we have. It's wrong, I think, to put in exaggerations like "there's no law of the UK" - because Parliament passes laws for us all; also I'm not sure that Northern Ireland doesn't have the same court system as England and Wales, because my understanding was both civil and criminal (unlike Scotland) are appealed to the Lords; I could be wrong. I'm not sure how helpful the new conflict of laws footnote is, and that it says anything relevant about the question. But I can assure you that I don't make things up as I go along, and I don't stink. I'm very glad, Mais oui, you have the presence of mind to change the heading from Parliament to Assembly, and congratulate you for it. Hopefully we can work on the article further without posting inflamatory comments too? Wikidea 07:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank goodness that you are a more friendly chap that Tim!! -- Mais oui! 08:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Northern Ireland Law

Yes, it seems that I'm correct about law in Northern Ireland. Mais Oui looks to have made that page himself, composed of a list about the police and Parliaments there; the only addition that Mais Oui didn't make to this page was the link about the Courts of Northern Ireland which explains clearly that the Lords is the final court of appeal within the UK. I'm removing the section on courts on the page - there's already space under the NI Assembly. Wikidea 07:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You are confusing the fact that NI shares its highest court of appeal with E&W (and lots of other places) with it having the same legal system. It does not, and to claim that NI comes under the same legal system as E&W is straying deep into WP:OR. -- Mais oui! 08:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

That's fine by me; it's always good to be specific. I'm putting your NI page in the see also list, but it's quite a useful collection of links. Wikidea 08:21, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It seems we're editting at the same time. The section doesn't belong with Scots and English law, because the courts for NI are unified with E and W - I've changed the header title to reflect that. Wikidea 08:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

"the courts for NI are unified with E and W" - Huh?!? You'd better find an awful lot of good references for that, as per WP:CITE and WP:RS, because that is just not true. -- Mais oui! 08:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)