Talk:Lelang Commandery

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Contents 1 The location of lelang commandery 2 Alternate names for "Lelang" 3 Secondary source for the location of lelang 3.1 Sources in English

[edit] The location of lelang commandery

Based on chinese history books, it was located at west manchuria. So, the location of lelang commandery should be modified. See below for reference 集解張晏曰：「朝鮮有濕水、洌水、汕水，三水合為洌水，疑樂浪、朝鮮取名於此也。」索隱案：朝音潮，直驕反。

高驪平壤城本漢樂浪郡王險城，即古朝鮮地，時朝鮮王滿據之也。

括地志云：「高驪都平壤城，本漢樂浪郡王險城，又古云朝鮮地也。」

集解徐廣曰：「昌黎有險瀆縣也。」
索隱韋昭云「古邑名」。
徐廣曰「昌黎有險瀆縣」。
應劭注「地理志遼東險瀆縣，朝鮮王舊都」。
臣瓚云「王險城在樂浪郡浿水之東」也。
--Hairwizard91 16:47, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The above is original research by User:Hairwizard91, which directly contradicts Encyclopedia Britannica's article on Nangnang. According to Britannica, Lelang Commandery (Nangnang) "occupied the northwestern portion of the Korean peninsula and had its capital at P'yongyang".--Endroit 09:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

This is not original research. It is already published as books. ^[1], ^[2]. --Hairwizard91 03:59, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate names for "Lelang"

According to the following entry from Merriam-Webster Unabridged Collegiate Encyclopedia, Lelang and Lo-lang are variant names for Nangnang:

Main Entry: Nangnang

Variant(s): or Lelang or Lo-lang

Colony of Han-dynasty China in N Korea, near modern-day Pyongyang, from which the Chinese incorporated S Korea and parts of Japan into their sphere of influence. The Chinese maintained a commandery there for 400 years. Its presence introduced the local people to wet-rice cultivation, iron technology, and high-fired ceramic technology.

Collegiate Encyclopedia copyright © 2006 by Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

--Endroit 07:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

They're all the same name, just different pronunciations and romanizations thereof. Nangnang is the SK pronunciation; if I'm not mistaken, Nakrang is the standard NK pronunciation. Lelang and Lolang, of course, are differing romanizations of the standard Mandarin Chinese pronunciation. Would not oppose a move to Nangnang, although it's striking that there has never been any interest in such a move... If I'm not mistaken, this is only at the Chinese name because User:Nanshu happened to create it. -- Visviva 09:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Sure, should we move it to "Nangnang Commandery" or just "Nangnang"? Either way, I think we should merge/redirect State of Nangnang into this article as well.--Endroit 09:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Assuming that a merge is in the offing, I think "Nangnang" would be best, per WP:NPOV and also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (unambiguous and easier to link). -- Visviva 10:04, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, I will agree with that merge. And "Lelang Commandery" could still be mentioned as an alternate name in the first paragraph.--Endroit 18:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Secondary source for the location of lelang

The location of lelang was Liaodong and Liaoning. See the references ^[3], ^[4]. --Hairwizard91 04:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

1. ^ >이, 덕일 (2005). 교양 한국사 1 - 단군조선에서 후삼국까지 (Korean History for College Students: From Gojoseon to Posteria Three Kingdoms). 서울: 휴머니스트. ISBN 8958620528. 
2. ^ 리, 순진 (2001). 평양일대 락랑무덤에 대한 연구(A Research about the Tombs of Nangnang around Pyongyang). 서울: 중심. ISBN 89-89524-05-9. 
3. ^ >이, 덕일 (2005). 교양 한국사 1 - 단군조선에서 후삼국까지 (Korean History for College Students: From Gojoseon to Posteria Three Kingdoms). 서울: 휴머니스트. ISBN 8958620528. 
4. ^ 리, 순진 (2001). 평양일대 락랑무덤에 대한 연구(A Research about the Tombs of Nangnang around Pyongyang). 서울: 중심. ISBN 89-89524-05-9. 

[edit] Sources in English

• Columbia Chronologies of Asian History and Culture, By John Stewart Bowman 2000 Columbia University Press, ISBN 0231110049

• State Formation in Korea: historical and archaeological perspectives, By Gina Lee Barnes 2001 Routledge, ISBN 0700713239
  • map showing the location (Gina Lee Barnes)

• "Nangnang" Encyclopædia Britannica

• The History of Korea, By Djun Kil Kim, Chun-gil Kim 2005 Greenwood Press, ISBN 0313332967

For historical reference, the first group of references (in Korean) were added by User:Hairwizard91, and presumably support the Liaoning hypothesis; the second group (in English) were added by User:Endroit, and support the Pyongyang hypothesis. -- Visviva 16:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

For my part, I think this article should mention that the location of Lelang/Nangnang is not known with certainty, and that some sources believe it was not located on the Korean Peninsula at all -- but also that the consensus of historians supports the Pyongyang hypothesis. -- Visviva 16:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying, Visviva (I forgot to sign). The links in English above show the consensus view outside of Korea. We should definitely mention that North Korea opposes this consensus view, as Gina Lee Barnes suggests (in her link above). I am curious to see if there are any sources in English elaborating, and even supporting, any alternate view. If there aren't any sources in English, it probably proves that the alternate views are in the minority.--Endroit 16:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The english book to view that Nangnang state and Lelang commandery.

• Lee Hyun Hee, Park Sung Soo and Yoon Nae Hyun, New History of Korea (2005). ISBN : 89-88095-85-5

About the location of lelang commandery in Liaoning.

• Yong ho Choe Reinterpreting traditional history in north korea. The Journal of Asian Studies, Vol 40(3), 503 - 523 --Hairwizard91 19:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)