Talk:List of Black/White people
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[edit] Relevance of List and Proper Format of Entries
IMO, since this list (a subset of the "List of Multiracial People") is called "List of Black/White people", it would make sense if each entry should show which parent is white and which is black. There's no point in just saying "Joe Blow, black and white" -- if Joe is on this list, then it is obvious that he is half-black and half-white. A better entry would be "Joe Blow, white Swedish father, black American mother", or whatever. Also, putting the reference in the footnotes is a bit more acceptable, since it would not over-extend the length of the list (unlike in the case of the full multiracial list). Of course, the best place to put such a reference is in the relevant article for the person. -- Jalabi99 11:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Some Sources and dictionaries which derive "mulatto" from the Arabic term "muwallad", a term used in Arabic up to this day in order to describe people of mixed-race ancestry
- Leopoldo Eguilaz y Yanguas (1886): Glosario de las palabras españolas (castellanas, catalanas, gallegas, mallorquinas, protugueses, valencianas y bascongadas), de orígen oriental (árabe, hebreo, malayo, persa y turco). Granada, La Lealtad, 1886.
- Julio Izquierdo Labrado (1993): La esclavitud en Huelva y Palos (1570-1587) [1]
- SyriaToday Mulatto not derived from Latin but an Arabic loan-word
Information on muwallads:
- Yemen Reviews Hadhrami Traders, Scholars and Statesmen in the Indian Ocean, 1750s-1960s. Social, Economic and Political Studies of the Middle East and Asia, vol. 57. Leiden: Brill, 1997. x, 392 pp. ISBN 90-04 10771 1 LC# JV8750.5.H33 1997 Engseng Ho, an anthropologist, discusses the role of the muwallad in the region. The term muwallad, used primarily in reference to those of 'mixed blood,' is brilliantly analyzed through ethnographic and textual information.
- The British-Yemeni Society, Hadhrami migration in the 19th and 20th centuries
[edit] Eurafrican
Just as it is proper and politically correct to call people with White ancestry and Asian ancestry, Eurasian, it is fitting and politically correct to call "Black/White" people, Eurafrican. I think we, as Eurafricans, should atleast be afforded this one word, and not some derogatory, slave era term. Furthermore, it can be seen that people the world throughout are described by their nationality; for example, Mexican, Chinese, Nigerian, African, European, Asian, Eurasian, Blasian ...Eurafrican :). The hobgoblin 00:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Eurafrican
Eur·af·ri·can (plural Eur·af·ri·cans)
noun Definition:
person of European and African descent: somebody of both European and African descent
Eur·af·ri·can adjective
Source: http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/eurafrican.html The hobgoblin 19:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Eur‧af‧ri‧can /yʊˈræfrɪkən, yə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[yoo-raf-ri-kuhn, yuh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1. of mixed European and African descent. –noun 2. a person of European and African descent. [Origin: 1885–90; eur- + african]
Source: eurafrican. Dictionary.com. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1), Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=eurafrican&x=0&y=0 (accessed: August 28, 2006). The hobgoblin 19:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
No sufficient proof that "Eurafrican" is actually generally used for black/white biracials. Many black/white biracials obviously strongly dislike it. It has several negative historical connotations. Pentb
No sufficient proof that "mulatto" is actually generally used for black/white biracials. Many black/white biracials obviously strongly dislike it. It has several negative historical connotations. The hobgoblin 02:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Mulatto
Some individuals may want to call themselves "eurafrican" but this is not a generally used term for white/black biracials. An encyclopedia is not the place to promote personal preferences.
While eurasian is unprecise and vague because it refers to white/Asian (including East-Indian) mixes, mestizo is the traditional term for native/white mixes and mulatto is the traditional term for black/white mixes. It’s used and accepted by many who know that mulatto history is far too rich to be reduced to slavery. The terms "black" and "white" were created and used during slavery. Black was once derrogatory and some people think it still is but it's officially used.
People are free to call themselves whatever they want but they are not free to impose their personal preferences on others. I'm mulatto and I know plenty of other mulattoes who are happy with the term.
Also African, Asian or European are not nationalities. They refer to geographic locations, big continents which are especially in the case of Asia and Africa inhabited by people of different races and many different cultures. That's why eurasian is also used for white/East-Indian mixes although Indians are racially different from Chinese for example. Of what race are Australians? Many black people who have been living either in Europe or America for generations and centuries consider themselves European or American and not African. They are culturally the same as others around them. Who has the right to tell them they are not European because they're black? That would be extremely racist in my opinion. Cultural determinism is also a form of racism. Also who has the right to tell Caucasian north Africans they are not Africans. That would be racist as well.Pentb
[edit] Etymological origin and actual meaning are not identical
"Many words of common usage can for example be traced to a 'negative' etymological origin. Among those are words like berber, slavic (which is thought to be related to the word slave), Hapa, hysterical (sexist origin) or even the innocent "kid" (which at its roots meant young goat) . However neither of these words are used in any way shape or form to mean what their roots mean, and neither is mulatto. It's also important to note that the term "black" referring to people was once (and for some people still is) a derrogatory term." Pentb
[edit] Mule
mulatto
mu·lat·to (plural mu·lat·tos or mu·lat·toes)
noun Definition:
1. an offensive term for somebody who has one black and one white parent
2. an offensive term for somebody who has both black and white ancestors
[Late 16th century. < Spanish mulato "young mule" < mulo "mule" < Latin mulus]
Source: http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861631753/definition.html The hobgoblin 19:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Mulatto is mainly offensive to one-droppists. However, the term "black" in relation to people was once offensive and some even think it still is.Pentb
[edit] "Eurafrican" is tied to colonialism and ideas of racial superiority
The term "Eurafrican" is tied to colonialism. It was first used by Portuguese historians in the 19th century to underline Portugal's claim to her African colonies.
It was also used by 20th century Italian anthropologist Giuseppe Sergi who considered Mediterraneans part of a "Eurafrican Race", related to some Africans and racially superior to Nordics. According to Sergi the Mediterranean race, the "greatest race of the world", was responsible for the great civilisations of ancient times, including those of Egypt, Carthage, Greece and Rome. These Mediterranean peoples were quite distinct from the peoples of northern Europe. Sergi also argued that the Mediterranean race was closely related to a Hamitic African population, which included such groups as the Tutsi. To Sergi the Semites were a branch of the Eurafricans who were closely related to the Mediterraneans (Gilette 2002). His concepts were later taken up by some African-Americans and fed into the development of Afrocentrism.[2]
It is a known fact that "mulatto" is tied to colonialism and slavery and is an offensive term that means a mule. The hobgoblin 02:14, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Mulatto - Bluropean
I like the term mulatto but if I would have to choose an alternative term I would only choose Bluropean. Blasian - Bluropean :)
No sources. The hobgoblin 20:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
No sources needed. I simply said: "I like the term Bluropean". Bluropean would be the only alternative to mulatto to me.
[edit] Reversion
I'm going to revert this back into a whole list instead of several broken lists, because 1) the forker didn't even discuss the changes, making it seem like xe didn't care about the opinion of other editors on this topic, 2) the fork broke all the references, and seems to indicate to people that references don't matter which is incredibly bad, 3) nobody seems to understand what "interracial" means, thinking it means "multiracial" which is a big confusion, and 4) Even List of multiracial people, which should be a bigger list, doesn't have sublists. If someone wants to re-sort these people, that's fine, but I don't see it as necessary. I'll reintegrate the changes that were introduced since the fork back in as well. ColourBurst 18:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Black"
I was wondering what definition of "black" was being used here. Guettarda 21:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Merge
I believe that this article should be merged with List of multiracial people. That list covers "famous biracial and multiracial people", so this entire list appears to be a poorly defined subset of people in that list. Guettarda 00:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed Mad Jack 05:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. There is public interest specifically in people who are black/white mixed, as evidenced by websites such as mulatto.org (over 400 members), whiteblackbiracial.com, and a number of groups on yahoo, google, msn, myspace, livejournal, and other social networking sites. It would seem to me to be an agressive act against visibility and distinctness of this particular community to merge this list with the multiracial list. (From a user named "Dave" without an account) 04:58, 21 November 2006
- So how is this distinct from the other article? What does "Black/White people" mean anyway? Not everyone in the list is "black-white biracial". Without a clear definition of what the criteria for inclusion are, what reason is there for this to stand distinct from the other page? Guettarda 22:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. Clearly the aforementioned concept of "Black/White people" is vague at best. I think it should be merged with List of multiracial people or perhaps a Eurafrican section created to mirror the Eurasian section. The hobgoblin 00:27, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
If people on the list aren't black-white biracial, then they should be removed from it. As for vagueness, if the concept of a black/white biracial person is vague, then it would seem that the concept of a black person or a white person would be vague. In which case, lists like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notable_black_innovators%2C_inventors_and_scientists should also either be merged into general lists or be deleted.
- I would have absolutely no problem if such a page as that were deleted or merged. If you can go to that wiki page's discussion section and get a consensus vote on its removal then I honestly don't see the problem? But, tell me, what is the criteria for someone to be officially known as a "black/white person"? How are we defining "white" and "black"? What if this person is 1% "black" and 99% "white"? What if this person has "black" and "white" ancestry but also has for example Native American ancestry? Must one only have "black" and "white" ancestry? I think all these questions are legitimate inquiries in trying to somehow define what an actual "black/white person" is. Interestingly, the Eurasian section isn't entitled "white/yellow people." I think we should come up with a more specific, fitting label. As such, here on this wiki discussion page I vote, in favor of Guettarda, for this article to be merged with List of multiracial people. The hobgoblin 02:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Those same questions (1% vs. 99%, Native American ancestry, etc.) can all be directed at a list of eurasians, or actually a list of people of any ethnic background or mix. It would be exceptionalism to use that critique only against a white/black biracial list. I vote against this article being merged.
- Oh yeah! I'm confident that these questions can be directed at the Eurasian wiki page. However, the Eurasian definition is broad and clear. In fact it states: "[Eurasian] is generally understood as a person who has both a Caucasian, and an East Asian, North Asian, or Southeast Asian genetic background." We see that, Kate Beckinsale, who is only 1/8 Burmese is listed as a Eurasian. In the same fashion, someone 1/8th "black" or or someone 1/8th "white" would technically be "black/white biracial" even though it's apparent that there is no general understanding of what a "black/white biracial" person is. If we continue on this path we find that:
- "The average (mean) Euro DNA admixture in African Americans is 17-18 percent. Virtually all African Americans have some detectable level of Euro DNA admixture. More than one African American in twenty (about 1.4 million individuals) have more than 50 percent Euro DNA admixture, and some have no detectable sub-Saharan admixture at all. In short, virtually all African-Americans are of both European and African genetic ancestry and many are genetically more European than African. [For details, see the chart published in Heather E. Collins-Schramm and others, “Markers that Discriminate Between European and African Ancestry Show Limited Variation Within Africa,” Human Genetics, 111 (September 2002), 566-99. The chart is also available in Legal History of the Color Line page 27, and in various threads in this discussion group.]"
- With this factual information we can safely conclude that the phrase "black/white biracial people" (as vague as it is) would consititate virtually every "African American" and indeed many "white" Americans(both populations combined easily eclipsing Eurasians in number) living in the United States today. Creating such a huge list would be mind boggling; I think it would be much easier to merge "black/white biracial people" into the wiki multiracial section: List of multiracial people. The hobgoblin 01:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
By your same logic all african american lists (in fact every single ethnic list) should be merged into the multiracial list, since your own facts show that almost all african americans are multiracial. It would be exceptionalism to only merge the Black/White biracial list with the multiracial list and to allow other ethnic or racial lists stand alone. I see no compelling reason listed to only merge the Black/White biracial list but not every other list, including the African American lists, into the wiki multiracial section.
"By your same logic all african american lists (in fact every single ethnic list) should be merged into the multiracial list, since your own facts show that almost all african americans are multiracial. It would be exceptionalism to only merge the Black/White biracial list with the multiracial list and to allow other ethnic or racial lists stand alone. I see no compelling reason listed to only merge the Black/White biracial list but not every other list, including the African American lists, into the wiki multiracial section."------Agreed. There has been a substantial amount of inconsistency of what goes for one group but doesn't go for another. If you want to argue that most African americans are mixed to begin with, then you may as well merge the list of African Americans to the multiracial/biracial group. And please remember that the eurasian, blasian, etc, groups also apply for this merge.
Keep in mind the term black/white must be used because of the insistance of not using a term that is offensive to black/white individuals. Ironically, just about every term created on this site is argued as degrading and heartless, hence the generic origin of the terms black/white, as that is not an offense to anyone.
What you will also find is that on the mulatto board, in order for an individual to be considered mulatto, they represent a lineage that has a distinctive amount of european AND african ancestory. Reminding you that the term black/white is being used to parallel what constitues a mulatto, it's safe to say that as long as those listed show a bloodline to that of a mulatto, they qualify to be considered an individual on the list of black/white. Americanbeauty415 07:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- See, what's problematic is your criteria for inclusion into this "black/white" list of people. You assume that a "black/white" person is only a "mulatto". The descriptor "black/white" means anyone with black and white ancestry. A "mulatto" would be a specific type of "black/white" person. If I'm not mistaken a "mulatto" is someone of half African descent and half European descent. So my point is either you release your efforts from making this a pointedly "mulatto" list, in which a majority on the list would be 50/50, black and white, or you allow for inclusiveness by which people with black and white ancestry, no matter how much or how little, are included on this list. To do it any other way would be to disallow encyclopedic objectivity.
- My vote is for a merge. CreoleMe 05:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
