Talk:Malmedy massacre

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Contents 1 Spelling: Malmedy, not Malmédy 2 Retaliatory Massacres? 3 Possible misunderstanding by Bill O'Reilly does not belong in article 3.1 Direct Bill O'Reilly quote corrected 3.2 Take Bill O'Reilly Quote Out 4 Scrapbookpages.com as a source 5 "Captor Captive" book as a source 6 Joseph McCarthy defending the German 7 "Macht alle kaputt." 8 Charles Durning 9 A cover-up?

[edit] Spelling: Malmedy, not Malmédy

The French name of the city is Malmedy. It neither contains an acute accent, nor any other diacritics. In the English Wikipedia, a kind of hyperforeignism seems to have occurred at some point, in which someone changed the spelling to Malmédy. But as is evident from the French Wikipedia pages about the city and about the 17 December 1944 massacre, and from the French-language version of the city's own website, the name does not contain any diacritics. Therefore I have removed the acute accents and moved the article from "Malmédy massacre" to Malmedy massacre. --Bwiki 00:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Retaliatory Massacres?

There now a rather lengthy paragraph citing somewhat questionable sources detailing accusations of retalitory massacres by American soldiers. This was added after the O'Reilly section went up, so I suspect it was put up by an O'Reilly fan trying to defend him. If there is some respectable historical opnions that such massacres did take place, then they deserve mention, otherwise the paragraph should be removed. MarcusGraly 17:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, that would be me, User:Jdlh. I wrote the section about the Chenogne massacre allegations. Yes, it was added after the O'Reilly section went up. In fact, it went up after an anonymous editor posted a citation to a source (see diff to revision as of 2006-06-03 16:30:59). I thought that wasn't good encyclopedia material, but I read the reference, did my own search for other sources, and came up with the paragraph you see. That was on June 3-4, and as of June 9, the text remains. "O'Reilly fan"? I also contributed to Bill_O'Reilly_controversies#Malmedy_massacre, and you will notice that I added two very specific references to ground the article in verifiable facts about what O'Reilly said. "respectable historical opinions"? I put five references in the Chenogne section, including to books published in 1964, 1965, and 1986. One of these books was published by the US Department of the Army. Take a look at the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. This means that we only publish material that is verifiable with reference to reliable, published sources." So, please read the Chenogne section and its five reference citations, take a look at the sources themselves, and make comments here about your findings. --Jdlh | Talk 01:30, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Verfiability does not mean some one wrote a book claiming it or posted it on a website. It means that it is the opinion of either the majority or sizable minority of experts. Again, I'm not knowlegable on this, so I'm not saying either way. But just because some neo-nazis wrote a book or a website claiming Americans massacred prisonors does not make it "Verifiable" MarcusGraly 16:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability is defined at Wikipedia:Reliable sources. So, please read the Chenogne massacre article, this article, and their reference citations, take a look at the sources themselves, and make comments here about your findings. --Jdlh | Talk 01:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I find it personally disgusting that people are now politicizing this article, which was initially about the massacre of American soldiers. Okay, we get it, Bill O'Reilly attempted use the Malmedy massacre to support his argument regarding crimes commited by American soldiers, but does this mean we should rewrite history to support Bill's claims? Take a look at the history [1] [2] of the article and see how the accusations of American wars crimes is larger than the substance of the actual massacre itself. I am removing the entire accusations paragraph, leaving "Afterwards, the order went out SS and Fallschirmjäger were to be shot on sight" which should be sufficient. If you want to re-add the paragraph, or trim it down, discuss it here first. Sysrpl 12:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Sysrpl, I appreciate your interest in this article. However, I disagree with you that the Chenogne paragraph represents "politicizing this article". Here's why:

1. The Chegnogne paragraph represents verifiable (maybe not true, but verifiable with sources) historical information, and so it belongs in the Wikipedia. I considered creating a separate Chenonge article, with a stub about the town and this paragraph, but it seemed structurally premature to create an article for just one paragraph. I did a search at the time, and found no other place in Wikipedia that mentioned Chenogne. Hence I put the paragraph in this article. Looking now, I see that I missed something: way back on 2005-04-12 20:34:38, anonymous editor 64.12.116.9 added a link in the List of massacres article, to an (as yet non-existant) Chenogne massacre article.
   So, I could support two options: either restore the Chenogne paragraph in this (Malmedy massacre) article, or restore it to a new Chenogne massacre article, with a further information link from the Aftermath section to that new article.
2. The Chegnogne paragraph isn't about a Bill O'Reilly controversy. It doesn't mention Bill O'Reilly at all. It is historical information that is worth documenting regardless of whether O'Reilly mentioned it, or tried to mention it but flubbed and got it wrong, or never knew about it. In fact, I would argue that to exclude information about the Chenogne allegations, because someone might use it to defend O'Reilly, is itself a departure from Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. This argues for restoring the Chenogne paragraph.
3. You are right that the Chenogne paragraph has more text than the Malmedy massacre description. That is because the Chenogne paragraph is more deeply researched and better cited. Cutting the Chenogne paragraph is not the solution. Doing research on the Malmedy massacre and improving that part of the article is the solution. I dug up references to three books that mention the Malmedy massacre, and there are many others. There are a lot of specifics to be added, sources to be cited. If you would like to improve the article by taking this on, I would applaud you. I have done similar work to improve this article myself -- see my edits back in July, 2004.

So, Sysrpl, I believe the Chenogne paragraph should be restored (perhaps to a Chenogne massacre article with a link from here), and I challenge you to channel your energy into improving the account of the Malmedy massacre in this article. Your comments? Comments from others? --Jdlh | Talk 17:58, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Great. I'll get you started in creating a Chenogne massacre article. Sysrpl 23:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll go with that. I've refined the Chenogne massacre article, and edited the text in Aftermath here a bit. I've been wanting to get rid of the gratuitous German word Fallschirmjäger for a long time, actually. My encouragement to you to improve the Malmedy massacre content still stands. --Jdlh | Talk 05:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible misunderstanding by Bill O'Reilly does not belong in article

Bill O'Reilly Accuses U.S. Army of Nazi War Crime On October 3rd, 2005, Bill O'Reilly, in a debate with General Wesley Clark stated that the 82nd Airborne were responsible for the Malmédy massacre, and that the victims were the Germans.

Transcript follows...

Gen. Wesley Clark: Because in the United States Army that I served in proudly for 34 years, we did not beat up and torture prisoners. Just a second, Bill ---

Bill O'Reilly: Yeah, but with all due respect, there were atrocities in Vietnam, there were atrocities in World War Two --

Clark: Yes, and they were found, and they were punished.

O'Reilly: -- in World War One, in the Civil War, and the Revolutionary War.

Clark: They were not condoned by the chain of command.

O'Reilly: Yes they were!

Clark: No they weren't.

O'Reilly: Lt. Calley, and Medina in Vietnam.

Clark: They were not condoned by the chain of command, those guys were court-martialed.

O'Reilly: You know -- listen, with all due respect --

Clark: And let me explain something. You go all the way up the chain of command --

O'Reilly: General! You need to look at the Malmedy massacre in World War Two, and the 82nd Airborne who did it!

OK, Bill O'Reilly is a fool who hasn't a clue what he's talking about. What's your point? →Raul654 20:16, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps not to you or me, but apparently to a large percentage of Americans, O'Reilly is not a fool with no clue. By the early 21st century, American knowledge has declined to the point that the Malmedy massacre is considered to be an evil act by the American Army itself.

I saw that interview, and I don't think that is what O'Reilly said. Clark was talking over that sentence and it wasn't clear what O'Reilly was saying. He previously wrote an article published in the Jewish World Review [3], where he said "After German SS troops massacred 86 American soldiers at Malmedy in Belgium on Dec. 17, 1944, some units like the U.S. 11th Armored Division took revenge on captured German soldiers.". I believe that that may have happened, especially considering the emotion that this massacre evoke among the troops.--Rogerd 17:50, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

The quote above is wrong. According to Fox, O'Reilly said the following:

O'REILLY: General, you need to look at the Malmady (ph) massacre in World War II and the 82nd Airborne.

Corrected the quote in the article, and reworded somewhat. He did not explicitly say that US forces were behind massacre, but he did indicate that this was what he meant. Bjelleklang - talk 20:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Give me a good reason why a quote by a modern American windbag, expressing a kooky opinion shared by no one in academica, belongs in this *historical World War II* article. This belongs in the O'Reilly article, perhaps, but in the context of this article it is non-notable and not of encyclopedic interest on the topic. The inclusion of this here sure looks like obessiveness with modern politics is bringing things off topic. Unless someone can produce a link to more rational and/or academic paper/article/person making this arguement, I will be removing this item.--67.101.69.30 23:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the whole "O'Reilly/Clark incident" has no place in this article. This isn't about what someone said about it in an obscure interview 60 years later, it is about the Malmédy massacre. This has nothing to do with O'Reilly's politics, that I sometimes agree with, and other times not, but this article is about an incident during WWII. --rogerd 01:10, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Won't object! Bjelleklang - talk 01:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not a misunderstanding - he did it again. This is notable. Fishhead64 06:54, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I would agree. I imagine there'll be some people looking for accurate information and it'd be nice to have a definitive answer in the article saying what happened, at least until this thing dies down a bit. — ceejayoz ^talk 12:20, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, this is bound to come up again; I've reproduced the original edit (now reverted) here at least until some consensus emerges:

==Misinformation Warning==

- In two separate Bill O'Reilly interviews with General Wesley Clark, once in October 2005 to discuss the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse and once in May 2006 to discuss the alleged Haditha incident, O'Reilly cited the Malmedy Massacre as an example that massacres have always occured in war including by US soldiers in World War II. In the May 2006 interview, O'Reilly told Clark, "In Malmedy, as you know, US Forces captured SS Forces who had their hands in the air and they were unarmed and they shot them down. You know that. It's on the record and documented." O'Reilly has not yet publicly admitted his mistake of reversing the situation and thus making it appear that the massacre near Malmedy was committed by US Soldiers on German SS Troops, instead of the other way around.

MSNBC news anchor Keith Olbermann corrected O'Reilly in no uncertain terms on his hour-long nightly newscast Countdown with Keith Olbermann on MSNBC. [4]

Bill O'Reilly is an insufferable idiot. And in 'best of three falls' with Charles During, I take Durning hands down.

It seems clear that O'Reilly refers to the aftermath which is the pertinent part of the massacre to his argument with Clark. Clark obviously understood this. However many people that dislike O'Reily have missed it in favor of a chance to criticize him.

I'm not sure about that. I couldn't care less one way or the other about O'Reilly, but the transcripts show that he said US troops committed the malmedy massacre. Then on the Fox transcripts, they changed it to "Normandy". You don't cover up a non-mistake. Of course the Normandy reference is nonsense since you can't retaliate five months in advance.

Anyway, O'Reilly is not the point. I simply think that if a popular media outlet spreads wrogn information (wittingly or unwittingly) it might be a good idea to explicitly correct it here. DMorpheus 14:59, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one that submitted the original O'Reilly paragraph. I purposely put it in its own section called "Misinformation Warning" near the end with the intent to not make it a feature of the historical details. I guess I look at this addition as an "urban legends" stopper and was intended to serve as an assistance to those who like to fact check with Wikipedia. I think this paragraph would be removed at a later date when it's obvious that the "misinformation" is not circulating. I respect the historical purpose of the article, I think having a section near the bottom of any historical article that captures any current, newsworthy promulgatation of mistatements by public officials or widely-read media sources is reasonable. If the misinformation becomes a controversy in itself (and gets its own identity) then a separate article makes sense. One could argue that this should be put in Bill O'Reilly's page but I have two reasons to differ, this is one of many things that O'Reilly says and it might not be noteworthy enough compared to some of his other comments. This is not about O'Reilly as much as noting possible misinformation being spread in the public square about this historical incident, so putting it in O'Reilly's page might not be seen by one who has heard lets say a co-worker share this misinformation as fact without referencing O'Reilly as the source. So this person would go to the Malmedy page, and not the O'Reilly page. Personally, I wouldn't put the additional line about Olberman exposing O'Reilly's mistake which someone else added, because that focuses too much on O'Reilly. I wanted to focus on what as actually said as misinformation rather than the event itself.

So who was it that removed it, it only had an IP address and no user account. Can it be added back in until at least a named editor has reviewed it? Whidbey

I missed that a comment about this misinformation being put in the See Also section. This helps address what I mentioned above, however not sure whether See Also is the right subject heading. Whidbey

I was the one that added the smart-ass comment about O'Reilly getting beaten up by Charles Durning. Is that the one you're referring to? Sorry guys. [Chris]

O'Reilly's comments in both interviews with Clark, and Olbermann's commentary, are discussed with citations in Bill O'Reilly controversies#Malmedy_massacre. I'm changing the See Also link in Malmedy massacre to point there. I don't think this article needs anything more than that reference. --Jdlh | Talk 00:26, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

My 2 cents...is every occasion some goof gets their history wrong highly relevant to that history? If so, then most entries would consist mostly of such screw ups. O'Reilly isn't the first to get Malmedy history wrong and probably won't be the last. But his relevance to Malmedy will likely be non-existant within his lifetime. I agree with Jdlh's approach; limit the reference to See Also in this article. Christiandemocrat 18:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree with Jdlh and Christiandemocrat. This article is about an incident in WWII where brave American soldiers were massacred. Some tv commentator's lack of knowledge about the incident has nothing to do with it. Maybe just a link in the "see also" section is all this needs. Have some respect. --rogerd 16:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Wow, what a nutty edit-war in this article over the last two days! Raul654 and Viriditas, thanks for reverting all those inappropriate edits. Raul654, you were the one that changed the discussion of the O'Reilly controversy from a brief reference under See also to a paragraph under Legacy, back on 2006-06-04 10:52:34. Would you be willing to go back to a one-line See also? I think it might discourage some of these edit wars. Normally I would WP:Be bold and make the change myself, but you obviously care about this article too, and I'd like to have your buy-in. (And the other changes you made at the same time were fine, I think.) I think all the text needs to do is a) be visible to a diligent reader researching the O'Reilly controversy starting with Malmedy massacre, and b) point to Bill O'Reilly controversies#Malmedy_massacre specifically. Thanks to you and the other positive contributors here for your care and effort. --Jdlh | Talk 02:30, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I would very much prefer not to for several reasons. First, see-also's are bad writing in general; if something is important enough to merit a mention, say it in sentences that put it into context; otherwise, it shouldn't be mentioned at all. Second, while I originally favored not mentioning it (see my above comment from october), the fact that O'Reilly did it again and caused a much bigger controversy makes it mention-worthy, in my opinion. The mention here isn't overly large, and points the reader to the more detailed version at Bill O'Reilly controversies#Malmedy_massacre, which I think is the right way to do things. Raul654 02:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

My mild preferences defer to Raul654's strong convictions. I'll go along with the current text. --Jdlh | Talk 04:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we get rid of this sentence now tacked onto the end of the O'Reilly para.: "On the other hand, this anti-O'Reilly insert may have no releavance to the core of the article."-? I understand there's an argument about whether to mention O'R 's possible misrepresentation of the facts, but that should ALL be HERE, not in the article itself; looks very amateurish.

I agree. It was added only 3 hours ago by an anon, and I have no idea what it is supposed to be saying. Raul654 16:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say O'Rilly incident definitely deserve mention as a trivia. Vapour

The June 8-9 edits by Stanley011 had the side effect (unintended, I'm sure) of deleting the link to the main article on the topic: Bill O'Reilly controversies#Malmedy massacre. I'm not going to get involved in the back-and-forth editing of this section, but I would like to see this link preserved in some form. If you are an editor that wants to make sure this controversy is covered right, I encourage you to apply your talents there, and let the discussion here be a brief summary. --Jdlh | Talk 01:51, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Direct Bill O'Reilly quote corrected

The exact words quote "General! You need to look at the Malmedy massacre in World War Two, and the 82nd Airborne who did it" was resolved in the this talk page section. Sysrpl 11:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Take Bill O'Reilly Quote Out

I suggest we take it out completely. I honestly do not see why it has a place here. A) This is an article about an event in history involving a massacre, which is one subject you definitely have to substantiate and be completely objectionable on. B) He's incorrect in his retelling of history, so he is deceiving the people who are looking to him for factual news! So, why is he even being quoted here? Now, I understand the historical reference to the situation not being clearly understood by the public today, but I'm sure we can find a better source than Fox News. Shadowrun 11:31, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed I say all references to Bill O'Reilly and his comments should be removed from this article. This article should be a stoic description of a moment history 60 some years ago. That people are attempting to politicalize this now to support or decry a television pundint's controversial statements is wrong, and that goes doubly so for an encyclopedia entry. Besides, all of this controversy is covered here in more depth. Sysrpl, 07:46:28 2006-06-16 (UTC)

This thread is a continuation of Possible misunderstanding by Bill O'Reilly does not belong in article section above, so I've moved the Retaliatory Massacres? section up and made this thread a subhead under Possible misunderstanding.... --Jdlh | Talk 23:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

There have already been many comments in favour of taking the O'Reilly content out of this article, and some comments in favour of keeping it there. It looks to me like a consensus but not unanimity in favour of deleting the O'Reilly reference altogether. Any proponents of keeping an O'Reilly reference care to state that case, in light of the whole discussion? Also, everyone please remember to sign your contribution with four tildes ~~~~. --Jdlh | Talk 23:20, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Since no one is taking any action one this issue, I decided to delete the paragraph referencing Bill O'Reilly to expedite a vote. We can vote keep or delete, and provide a comment. I'll get the ball rolling. Sysrpl 19:04, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

I've reverted the deletion of the O'Reilly text from the article. I'm not comfortable with a sudden wholesale deletion while the discussion is open here on the Talk page. And I disagree that "no one is taking any action on this issue"; this article has seen over 60 edits in the less than three weeks since the most recent O'Reilly controversy came to this article on June 2, 2006. Let's allow a week come to a consensus here first, then take action. Sysrpl, if you'd like to accelerate the consensus, I request you to contact the people who were in favour of keeping the O'Reilly pararaph, and ask them to contribute to this discussion. Let's try for a consensus rather than a vote. I think it will be better. Perhaps you can take the lead on writing a consensus statement that we all can agree with. (See also Wikipedia:Resolving_disputes) --Jdlh | Talk 23:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

• shorten and keep some brief description that O'Reilly described this incident as being committed by American soldiers upon German soldiers, and with a clear reference to the O'Reilly "Malmedy massacre" controversies article. I agree with DMorpheus that he did get it wrong before a large audience. The mention here must be enough to be recognisable by someone researching what O'Reilly said, and to point them in the right direction. --Jdlh | Talk 19:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
  abstain for now, let's get a consensus instead of a vote. WP:DR --Jdlh | Talk 23:04, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
• keep Some brief description of what was said by O'Reilly (it will take more than a sentence; maybe a very short paragraph) with a reference to the O'Reilly "Malmedy massacre" controversies. It is unfortunate that he got it wrong, but he got it wrong before a large audience. DMorpheus 14:25, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
• delete this article is about brave American soldiers, not some nutty TV person who's commentary will be forgotten soon. --rogerd 15:50, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: I believe this article is not about "brave American soldiers", it is a report of historical events and claims about them. To centre it around "brave American soldiers" is not Neutral point of view. We should evenhandedly report on brave American soldiers, American soldiers who do evil things, brave German soldiers, German war criminals, American-led miscarriages of justice, German neo-fascist propoganda, misguided American comentators... the whole story. It's an encyclopedia for all people, not just Americans. --Jdlh | Talk 17:07, 20 June 2006 (UTC) (who is American)

    Point well taken. But can you honestly say that in 20, 10 or even 2 years people will still be talking about this TV guy and what he said about this? There have been other writers and commentators who have said nutty things before and most of them are not in wikipedia. --rogerd 15:47, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

    That's a good point....but right now people are talking. Just as with money, information has a time value. Wiki costs nothing to edit. So my sense is, keep it for now. In two years (heck, probably much sooner) once everyone is rightly ignoring this little dustup with O'Reilly, it can be taken out and just put a reference in to the other article. But for now it should be kept. Just my two euros. DMorpheus 16:00, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

    I just wanted to point out that the Bill O'Reilly controversies covers the discussion already, and that bringing it into this article politicizes it. This article should be about World War II history and not a TV pundit's politically motivated rhetoric. Sysrpl 19:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

• delete and add one short sentence in the legacy pointing to the O'Reilly "Malmedy massacre" controversies article. Sysrpl 19:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

O'Reilly comment should go here: Chenogne massacre, because this is what he (almost certainly) referred to - an apparent "revenge killing" for Malmedy - and depending on interpretation got mixed up or phrased misleadingly. Dysmorodrepanis 16:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's get serious. This would be like putting a complete rundown of the Jeremy Glick thing in the article about 9/11. O'Reilly isn't that notable that blow-by-blows of his many, many controversies have to go in the actual articles about the things that he runs his mouth about. Savidan 19:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

It might be worthwhile to include at least a single sentence and wikilink to the relevant article. To be honest I barely know who O'Reilly is and all I know of the controversy is based on the wikipedia articles. But it seems to be a topic for US readers, so it should be included in at least a minimal form.--Caranorn 20:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not terribly notable even in the U.S. Let's not gunk up this article with his asinine commentary 50 years later that had no effect on the actual massacre. If you want to write about the substance, i.e. if there was retribution by the allies after the massacre, that's fine. But if it was mentioned once in an episode of Seinfeld...just move on. Savidan 18:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Scrapbookpages.com as a source

I've been in email conversation with the author of the site http://www.scrapbookpages.com/ , which contains Malmedy Massacre information that many of us are citing in this article. S/he says, "I did not intend my web site to be a "reference source." ... I have not set myself up as an authority on anything. I did not intend my web site to be encyclopedic in nature. I don't put a bibliography at the end of my pages, like a professional researcher would do. In no way have I presented myself or my web site as source material for serious historians." S/he also maintains hir intention to remain anonymous. This is frustrating for me, because they have clearly done a lot of reading of good primary and secondary sources, and with a bit more citation might be a reliable secondary source for us to use in Wikipedia. However, given these comments by the author, I'm inclined to stop relying on scrapbookpages.com as a source, and look for alternate citations to justify what is written in this article. --Jdlh | Talk 18:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

An anonymous editor just added a paragraph of an alternative account of the Malmedy Massacre based on scrapbookpages.com and its recounting of a book by a Hans Schmidt of the 1. SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. I have a feeling this alternative account will be controversial. I no longer think the scrapbookpages.com site is a strong enough reference to rely on for such a controversial account. I sure hope someone reads the Schmidt book and revises the paragraph to cite it and other sources directly. --Jdlh | Talk 18:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I share your doubts about the reliability of Scrapbookpages.com as sources for the Malmedy massacre and the Malmedy massacre trial. It contains many assertions that are from unknown sources or unverified and also lots of factual or historical inaccuracies.

Many of the sources are German. When American sources are used, they usually support the German side of the story. The description of what happened at the crossroads is based mainly on the German eyewitnesses’ testimonies while no testimony of the survivors (which were however collected in the hours following the massacre and were convergent) is cited.

For instance, I have read this in the first page of the document:

“The reason given by the US Army QM unit which eventually retrieved the bodies was that there was still heavy fighting in the area, which was not true, according to American soldiers (who were these soldiers, no name given) who participated in the fighting in the vicinity of the Massacre”.

According to my information, the front line held by the American was more or less one mile North of the crossroads (see this map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Battle_of_the_Bulge_6th.jpg) so that the US forces had no control over the Baugnez crossroads even if they could hold it under artillery fire (the crossroads is very visible from the highs located North of Malmedy) and maybe prevent other German units to use that road. Moreover, during the whole day of 21 December 1944, Malmedy was attacked on its West side by the 150th panzer brigade led by Otto Skorzeny. And, the 23, 24 and 25 December, Malmedy was mistakenly bombed by the US Air Force, which destroyed and put on fire most of the city and caused the death of 200 civilians. The number of casualties among the US troops defending the city is still unknown today. But on can understand that the US troops were quite occupied with all this until then end of December.

Additionally, one should not forget that some villages in direct “vicinity of the massacre” (like Thirimont or Ligneuville, both less than 2 miles away of the crossroads) were in hand of the Germans or were under German attack (like Waimes).

Just after the previous paragraph, one can read “according to one veteran of the battle, an American Infantry Captain who is now deceased (how convenient it is, he is deceased and we don’t know his name), the alleged massacre was a cover-up to explain why the US Army waited four weeks to collect combat fatalities after they had been notified about the bodies by local Belgian citizens. Another 12 bodies were recovered four months later after all the snow had melted, making a total of 84 victims”.

So, after a few line, the scrapebook.com already tries to explain this all was a cover up. This seems however contradictory with the fact that the announcement of the massacre was already know at the HQ of General Hodges on the evening of the 17 December. Weird timing for a “cover-up operation” that one would expect to take place after the corpses had been recovered and buried.

A few lines later, I can also read “There were three eye-witnesses to the event: the owner of the Cafe, Madame Bodarme (her name was in fact Bodarwé and not Bodarme), a 15-year-old boy (who was this unnamed boy?) and a German-born (in that time, many inhabitants of the Malmedy area were German born, since Malmedy had been a German city till 1919) farmer, Henri Le Joly (BTW his name must be written Lejoly and not Le Joly). None of these witnesses were called to testify at the military tribunal in Dachau”.

What the writer forgets is that Madame Bodarwé’s corpse was never found after that day. It is usually though that she died during that action and that her body burned in her cafe when the German set fire to it. As far Henri Lejoly is concerned, according to Charles MacDonald (A Time For Trumpets: The Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge – 1984), Lejoly actually helped the German to find the American soldiers who tried to escape. One can thus wonder whether he would really have been happy of or even willing to testify at the Dachau trial.

Of course, the document continues with the account of a German soldier who, 60 years after the facts, “for obvious reasons wishes to remain anonymous”.

In substance, according to his story, the massacre was just an ill-fated accident due to the fact that the Americans had tried to attack the Germans and there is no way the Germans intentionally killed disarmed POWs. After the war, he and his comrades “were kept in cells with no lights and when they were taken out of the cells they put sacks over their heads and they were beaten almost daily”. Even worse, according to this witness, “the men in my regiment who had taken part in the battle at the crossroads were tortured very badly; they had their noses broken and their testicles were crushed and they were beaten until they signed confessions that they had massacred the Americans. These men were sentenced to death”.

It’s quite weird, to say the least, to read this kind of account made 60 years after the facts while it is known that the report of the sub-Committee of the US Senate, albeit acknowledging the existence of mock trials, has evidenced 55 years ago that no torture happened.

The fact is that the testimonies of the Germans have changed with the time while those of the American survivors are basically remained unchanged. And contrary to what is written in scrapbookpages.com, during their detention prior to the trial, the German accused were not kept under isolation, but had the opportunity to discuss together, which has probably allowed them to agree on a more or less common version of the facts (report of the sub-Committee of the US Senate).

In conclusion, I don’t think scrapbookpage.com should be disregarded as source, but it cannot be kept as main source for the articles on the Malmedy massacre and the ensuing trial. --Lebob-BE 17:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Captor Captive" book as a source

An anonymous editor posted a message about a possible other source. This message didn't belong in the main article, so User:Tapir Terrific correctly reverted it. However, I don't want the message to be lost, so here it is.

My uncle wrote a book, Captor Captive, that included the Nazis convicted of the Malmedy Massacre and imprisoned at Landsberg.. He was the assistant commandant, a Lt, whose assignment was to carry out the executions. He knew Peiper well and had many conversations with him while in captivity. It was a limited edition written by him and I have scanned it and have it as text that I can attach and send to anyone interested in the history of those imprisoned at Landsberg. He is still alive with a great memory of those events at this writing-July 2006. ----Tom B Atkinson, Nephew of Joseph H Williams, Author. tomjax@yahoo.com. Quote from "Malmedy Massacre" Revision as of 2006-07-10 10:02:55

I did some research: Williams, Joseph H. [1986]. Captor Captive (in English). Girtman Press, 423pp. ISBN 0961622008.  I see listings on used book services like Abe Books, but not on amazon.com. Per an eBay page describing the book, "After WWII, the author was appointed administrator of the War Crimes prison in Landsberg. Hitler was imprisoned there briefly in the early 1920s. Ironically, Landsberg prison held the top 100 Nazi war criminals, mass murderers from the War. The author had daily contact and conversation with many of the infamous Nazi and S.S. War Criminals while on duty at the prison."

I'm going to send Tom Atkinson an email suggesting ways he can contribute to this article. If you wish to, please do so also. --Jdlh | Talk 03:00, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joseph McCarthy defending the German

I am wondering why no mention is made in the trial part of this article that Senator Joseph McCarthy took the defence of the Germans soldiers charged with the accusation of having perpetrated the massacre. He notably stated that the German had be tortured during their interrogation.--81.242.185.102 02:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Firstly, that discussion belongs in the main article, Malmedy massacre trial, rather than here. Second, it takes someone to do the research, find sources which document McCarthy's actions, and then add that text to the article. Is this something you can do? It would be great if you could. --Jdlh | Talk 08:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this discussion belongs to the main article (which, BTW, I hadn't yet seen when I have written the above comment). As to sources, I think some of the facts are related on the Wikipedia article on McCarthy. The first time I have read about McCarthy's involvement in the trial was when I read the (French translation of) Charles MacDonald's book (I time for trumpets) on the "battle of the bulge". Anyway, the facts relating to the Malmedy massacre have always interested me as I am been born a few kilometers away from the Baugnez crossroad. I just need time to do this. Moreover, living in Belgium, I am not sure I will get acces to relevant sources. And, last but not least, my written English has many flaws which could make my text difficult to understand. I will perhaps start to change the French version of this article (which is currently very incomplete) and then translate into English my findings on McCarthy's action --81.241.154.59 15:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your interest! It is great to have someone with local knowledge and French language ability contribute to this work. Please don't be worried about English language abilities. First, from your posting here your English ability seems quite good. Second, you can just post your rough text in the article, and put a note on the talk page asking people to clean up your wording. I'm sure many people will be happy to help. I had a similar experience -- a few years back there was no German-language "Malmedy Massacre" article, so I translated the English language article into poor German. Many people then improved the German wording of that article, and fixed all my language mistakes. I look forward to your contributions. May I encourage you to create an account, so that I can call you something other than "81.241.154.59"? --Jdlh | Talk 19:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for you kind answer. I just created my account for the EN Wikipedia. I had already one for the FR Wikipedia, but for some unknown reason, it wasn't accepted when I switched to English. I have made some further researches on the Malmedy massacre and the ensuing trial and found some interesting material, but I will need to sort it before going ahead.--Lebob-BE 00:19, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Macht alle kaputt."

I have outcommented this:
That testified statement does not sound German at all (by no means is there such phrase) but rather how Americans figure how Germans would speak.

"kaputt machen" (lierally: to actively break sth. physically) is a legit German derogatory colloquialism for "to kill" or "to die" and was so at the time of WW2 (e.g. in Remarque, Im Westen nichts Neues, published 1929: "Wir haben Humor, weil wir sonst kaputt gehen." - note that the passive form "kaputt gehen" is ambiguous as regards to physical death vs. mental breakdown). Thus, the phrase in question may very well indeed have been spoken by a German at that time and place. In fact, any command to kill the prisoners, given by somebody on the passing column, would have been more of a throwaway remark than a well-versed and formal command, and there are basically 2 ways to say such a thing in German, namely "macht sie/alle fertig" or "macht sie/alle kaputt". The former is more common, but the latter explicitly means "kill them" whereas "macht sie fertig" could also mean "brutalize but don't kill". A close English approximation would be "toast 'em all" except without the notion of using fire/explosives as means of destruction implied by "toast". "Wreck 'em all" would be a very close approximation of "macht alle fertig", including the ambiguity.

The Germanism "kaput(t)" denotes a physically broken piece of equipment rather than a dead person, thus it is actually quite unlikely that somebody without intimate knowledge of German would use such a term. Person with basic knowledge of German could be rather expected to give "macht sie/alle tot" for example, which is formally correct, but awkward and unusual. Dysmorodrepanis 16:46, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charles Durning

The actor Charles Durning may have served well in WWII, also said to have received a Silver Star as a 17-year old private (which is hard to verify without knowing his unit, etc.)but he was not involved whatsoever at the Baugnez crossroads, not a surviving escapee, etc. The source cited is an article on the film The Longest Day on a vets job website and the citation seems to be one of those "I heard that..." and unverifiable, but the event was propagandized heavily at the time with much untruth then and subsequently. However, every surrendering POW who went on to POW camp, those who succeeded in their escape attempt, those whose bodies were recovered at various times in various places etc. have all been identified. I would suggest Gen. Michael Reynolds as the most reliable to date. http://www.historynet.com/magazines/world_war_2/3030591.html And Durning was not there.

[edit] A cover-up?

As far as Scrapbook Pages regarding cover-up, prevalent theories well known at the time was that the Army PR and US press pointed up what may or may not have happened at the Baugnez crossroads at Eisenhower's direction to discourage surrendering, which was prevalent, and to take away attention from the fact that the US Air Force did in fact bomb US forces at Malmedy for three days in a row, despite all efforts by officer in command David Pergrin to stop them (pilots/navigator 'error'). And to divert attention that most Belgian civilian casualties were from US shelling ad bombing. But not from the US Army executing Skorzeny's men on Christmas morning, which event was delayed until the newsreel cameras could get there. Come on, foks, get real. Finally, I checked the Dachau Scrapbook citation re the 15-year old boy (named Pfeiffer) and Belgian farmer Henri Lejoly, both of whom had been heavily cited by the US at the time as 'eyewitnesses to the/a massacre' only a US Bulge researcher then found out in 1994 that although these 'eyewitnesses' plus one Mme. Bodarwe, who seems to have died later or earlier, are shown and 'interviewed' and cited in the US Signal Corps on the scene Jan 16, 1945 and in their commemoration anniversary photo display, the military tribunal investigators in 1945-46 omitted any record of interviewing these so-called eyewitnesses, did not obtain any affidavits from them of record, nor call them as witnesses. The existence of the 15-year-old is still open to question since there is no record, but Lejoly, it turns out, is now said to have 'betrayed' the hiding US troops to the Germans.72.81.16.200 04:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

What a surprise to read a discussion on what happened at Baugnez crossroads started by the same IP nr. who already came on the Stavelot talk page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Stavelot) put in doubt the reality of the massacre of 100 Belgian civilians who, instead, were "shelled by the US artillery".

Because it is of course impossible that your "honorable" officers of the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler could have perpetrated these massacres or even ordered them.

Let’s come back again to what you wrote.

• “Discourage surrending that was prevalent at the time”: It’s the first time I hear this theory. There have been surrenders in the first days of the Battle of the Bulge, as many US units have been attacked completely by surprise, just as the unfortunate victims at Baugnez were. I however doubt that what may or may not have happened at Malmedy (BTW the facts are well documented and there is no doubt that a massacre actually occurred) has been used by Eisenhower in order to prevent surrenders. Even if, as a matter of facts, I can imagine that US soldiers aware of the massacre were maybe more reluctant to surrender. However, since you are so affirmative on your theory of “prevalent theories well known at the time”, would you please be so kind to provide us with referenced sources.

• “cover-up for mistaken bombings of Malmedy”: That must be the funniest thing I have ever heard about the Malmedy massacre. So, the massacre happened on December 17, 1944 and the first testimonies of the survivors were made in the late afternoon of the same day to Colonel David E. Pergrin who was leading the troops in charge of the defense of Malmedy. The same day, Pergrin transmitted his report on these facts to the HQ of the 1st US Army (General Courtney Hodges) in Spa. The SHAEF was informed by Hodges that day or in the early morning of the 18 December. Yet by the late evening of the 17th the rumor that the enemy was killing prisoners had reached as far as the forward American divisions (Hugh M. Cole, THE ARDENNES: BATTLE OF THE BULGE, p. 264, [5]). Furthermore, on December 21, Malmedy had been attacked on its west side by the 150th Panzerbrigade, led by Otto Skorzeny. The fight lasted almost the whole day, but at the end the Germans were repelled. The first mistaken air strike of Malmedy by bombers belonging to the 9th USAF happened on 23 December 1944 at 3.26 p.m. (i.e. six days after the massacre at the Baugnez crossroads occurred). Two other mistaken bombings occurred on 24 and 25 December killing about 200 civilians and an unknown number of US soldiers. A substantial part of the small city was leveled to the ground. So if we must swallow your theory, the US Army has created on December 17, 1944 a false report (with false testimonies of course) regarding a massacre (that did in fact not happen at all) for covering up mistaken bombings of Malmedy that in fact happened six days later. This looks weird, to say the last.

• “and to divert attention that most Belgian civilian casualties were from US shelling ad bombing”: any person who has little knowledge of the Battle of the Bulge knows that. In my own village of origin, 15 people were killed and 27 others wounded by an US artillery fire in December 1944. However still today most of the people in this village are convinced that the primarily fault is in the hands of the German officer who ordered the population to evacuate the village at daylight through a road that was under sight of the US troops, who have mistakenly taken the civilian for a German troop. This was confirmed a few days later by another German officer who, after having heard the report, told the priest of the village: “der Offizier der dieses Befehl gegeben hat ist ein Nashorn!” (i.e. the officer who issued that order is a rhinoceros), meaning by this said officer had been stupid (or incompétent). In fact, as far I know, there is little resentment in the Ardennes against the US Army, although they might be viewed as responsible for numerous civilian casualties. There is still resentment against the German for the crimes they have perpetrated against civilians in numerous places during the Battle of the Bulge.

• The witnesses: I wonder how you can have the name of the 15 years old witness if, according to your own words, “the existence of the 15-year-old is still open to question”. As far Lejoly is concerned, the fact that he betrayed the hiding US troops to the Germans is reported by Charles Mc Donald in his book. After all, this is plausible, as the Malmedy area had been regarded as German territory between 1940 and 1944. And there were still people who felt more sympathy for Germany than for Belgium or the USA, even if they were not a majority. With respect to Mrs. Bodarwé, it’s a well known fact that she was killed in her café during the facts. In January 1945, some heavily burned bones were found in the café (which had been burned by the German). These bones are most probably those of Mrs. Bodarwé.

As I said in my answer on the Stavelot talk page, the post mortem examinations made in January 1945 on the victims show beyond any reasonable doubt that a massacre occured. And there are testimonies that German SS (i.e. nazi) officers were present when this happened.

Before trying to alter or hide the facts, please provide us with reliable sources and not the disinformation one can find in most of the denialist sources. You should try to find a job with FoxNews. I am pretty sure Bill O'Reilly would greatly appreciate your help. --Lebob-BE 11:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Just as a note to support how locals rarely blame the Americans for bombings or shellings of May, September or December 1944 (the three main phases of bombardment in this area). A number of my relatives were killed when their house was accidentally hit (I believe in September rather then December). My uncle likewise barely escaped getting killed by a strafing US fighter bomber... You certainly wouldn't find him accusing the Americans of any wrongdoings. In short, most among the population knew very well that these killings primarily occurred due to the German aggression of 1940. As a side note, my grand-father was actually a collaborator, yet I doubt he'd have blamed the Americans if my uncle had been killed that day.--Caranorn 13:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)