Talk:Maranatha Campus Ministries

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I believe that any article that is on Wikipedia should be perfected to give accurate, neutral, fair, balanced and especially USEFUL information... IF IT IS RETAINED ON WIKIPEDIA.

(Comment: The article was certainly USEFUL to me! See my other comment below. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

(Comment: I found the article when I was searching Google to see if the "Every Nation" church was, in fact, a cult. A local branch has been set up in my area and some people have been concerned about it. My opinion on the article is that is written in a REPORTing fashion. i.e. without any particular prejudice. It seems to me that any prejudice is found in the actions of those who created the original information when investigating the Maranatha movement. To judge whether or nor the reporting is fair or not, depends upon how accurately the author has related his/her research to us, the readers. I am in no way related to or connected to either the Maranatha group, or the "Every Nation"/"Morning Star" group. I am, however, a practising Christian with some decades of reading about cults and recognising where they may deviate from traditional Christian church doctrines. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

So I am trying to provide footnotes to better document this article.

However, the church has not existed for 16 years. So one may question whether the article should exist at all.

(Comment: Should we then abandon all study of any type of history? Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

But I am going to continue to try to perfect it as long as it is up here. I am searching for more citations and sources to better footnote the article.

JUST GIVE US A LITTLE TIME, PLEASE! We have day jobs. So please give people a week or two to squeeze in some volunteer efforts in between work, family, etc.

Jon Moseley

BY THE WAY: What should we do when there is very powerful supporting information in the form of a book, such as a book EXACTLY DICUSSING THE ISSUE AT HAND (like shepherding), but the only reference to that is the book for sale?

Is that okay?

The book may give powerful, direct, and comprehensive information about the issue.

Jon Moseley

Blueboy96, like others, keep adding FALSE information. Not merely information that cannot be verified, but information KNOWINGLY FALSE.

For example, no one can exercise "control" over someone in a voluntary group. It is impossible. People were free to leave the church, and many did. So no one can "control" someone's life who is free to leave any time they want.

Similarly, Blueboy96 wants to say that members were "required" to follow the Biblical mandate to tithe. That is knowingly false. Is he saying that people had guns put to their head? Clearly not. Members were taught what the Bible teaches. They could not be "required" to do anything, and they were not.

JonMoseley

It is well known within the wider Christian community that Maranatha was a cult. It was also well documented in the mainstream press.

(Comment: I highly doubt this. Having been a practising Christian for 54 years, I have seen many cultural changes in the operations of the Christian church over this time. i.e. changes that do not result in deviation from Biblical principles. e.g. use of modern music instead of the traditional hymns written in the 1800s; the Catholics going from Latin to English; the rise of the Pentecostal movement commencing in the early 1900s and so on. Although these changes, and numerous others, are not unbiblical, they have, nevertheless, always incurred the wrath and accusations of those who do not like the changes. From reading the article, it seems to me the complaints about Maranatha seem to fit into this category more than Marantha's activities being seriously unbiblical. Keep in mind that the author is nor complaining about Maranatha, but reporting complaints about it. As I see it, Maranatha appears to have been run by a group of relatively immature 'kids' who were not properly supervised by more mature Christians - they were bound to make a few mistakes that got them into trouble, both with individuals who were hurt, and the outside church en masse. Regarding the hurt individual members, it seems to me that we have no evidence from the article that they suffered serious, possibly lifetime, traumas as one might expect from a genuine cult admininistering ritual abuse or similar. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

I dispute Jon's assertion that no cultic practices cannot manipulate people. THere is a body of evidence that this not only CAN occur but DOES occur. Hundreds of articles...published in reputable journals of pyschology. Does Jon believe that the people in Jonestown were not manipulated and controlled?

(Comment: Or effectively influenced into belief? Although the tragic outcome may be the same, there is a significant difference compared to actual control. Believe me, looking from the inside of the Christian culture, I can tell you of countless instances where an individual, one who simply doesn't want to cooperate with the mainstream, or wants to 'do their own thing' regardless of how it adversely affects others, yells accusations of "controlling spirit" at their leaders. Which reminds me, in the whole of our society, from the nuclear family, to our schools, to our sports teams, to our businesses, to our military and so on, there exists authority structures. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with an authority structure that is effective and, of course, contains some people who tell others what to do and, my oh my, expect them to do it! The reports behind the article suggest that the Maranatha group was excessively authoritative, but doesn't give any evidence sufficient for us, the readers, to judge for ourselves whether or not it was. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

One basic fallacy in Jon's thinking is that the control hypothesis is one sided. In cultic groups peer pressure, love bombing and the members own pyschological condition are used to convince the member to convince themselves.  This not only occurs in religious groups...but in the highly publicized case of Patty Hearst and the well know study that coined the term the "Stockholm Syndrome".  No one is required to follow the mandate to tithe- but the members are coerced and manipulated. From the ICC to The Children of God to The Way International to MCM  coercion has occired.

Here are links http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6312/tbook.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

International Cultic Studies Associaton:http://www.csj.org/

Here is a link for those who want to read scholarly works on cultic manipulation that reads like a verbatim of MCM abuses: http://www.cultinfobooks.com/infoserv_icsa/icsa_about.htm

Here is link to Cultic Study Review a compilation of well respected Christian and Non Christian researchers:http://www.culticstudiesreview.org/csr_issues/csr_about.htm

Here is a link to Margaret Singer, PhD who led the scientific research effort to collate and categorize cultic practices that can lead to manipulation and control of the kind that Jon Mosely disputes http://www.rickross.com/groups/singer.html

Here is link to the "Apologetics Index" that has a compilation of other sources and readings that will contradict J Mosleys biased and unscientific assertions:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b09.html

Here is an excellent resource from a respected scholar and expert on Mind Control and Religious Cults http://www.freedomofmind.com/

And also a link to the New England Institute of Religious Research http://www.neirr.org/

A cursory reading of the Gigantic Body of scientific research will show that Jon Mosely's assertion that no one can be coerced is not only misguided it is blantly misleading.

[edit] "NPOV dispute'

Unless clearcut examples of violation of neutrality can be provided within the next 7 days, I will be calling for the removal of the tag.Osakadan 16:55, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

I would ask that removal of this tag be provided by 12/31/2006. The evidence is beyond dispute and the citations made are in the public record. 04:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)TIK TOK 1984

[edit] "NPOV dispute removal dispute'

Jcr4runner

Au contraire.

I would recommend that the POV dispute tag be KEPT until the article is substantially edited. TIK TOK is entitled to his opinion, but it should be known that it is an opinion and the article should be extensively revised by a third party to ensure journalistic neutrality. This type of thing -- attacking a church -- might occur on blogs and discussion groups, but not on Wikipedia. It diminishes Wikipedia's value as a source of factual information.

The reasons being:

1. The article is primarily an attack on Every Nation and seeks to prove its aberrant nature by providing "Links to Maranatha Ministries." The POV is a glorified conspiracy theory implying that the "link" is secretive even though the founders of Maranatha (Bob Weiner) and Every Nation (Rice Broocks) have written autobiographies in which they chronicle their relationship with each other. These would be TAKE DOMINION and CHANGE THE CAMPUS CHANGE THE WORLD. The "link" is really a moot point. It's like advancing a theory about "The Secret Zionist Conspiracy within the State of Israel." There is no conspiracy or secret.

2. The various founders and leaders of both groups have produced extensive books, autobiographies, magazines, newspapers, videos, DVDs etc. None of these are cited in the article. The main citations are articles written against the churches claiming they are aberrant in some way. I would recommend more information from TAKE DOMINION and CHANGE THE CAMPUS CHANGE THE WORLD as well as articles written by current members themselves. Most of the journalistic criticism cited comes not eyewitness accounts, but from a biased and tertiary POV.

3. The article exists to chronicle the controversy rather than the history, activities, personalites and teachings of the church. The latter are quite interesting and newsworthy. These addditional facts ought to make up most of the article. I think the controversy should be included, but it should not be the main feature as is. This biased POV should be heavily cut and edited.

4. The writer of the article has stated his belief that it is a well-known fact that Maranatha was a "cult" -- but he does not define what a "cult" is and does not mention the fact that both EVERY NATION and MARANATHA have published extensive literature and church confessions that fall within the confines of Christian orthodoxy. These churches have upheld the standards of the Apostles Creed, the Nicene Creed, etc. Experts in Christian orthodoxy who have written books and extensive articles on this topic, such as me, would interpret such a group as a "Christian church" and definitely not a "Christian cult." A Christian cult is a group that violates several tenets of Christian orthodoxy agreed upon by all churches (such as the ecumenical creeds, etc.) Whether or not other doctrinal and practical problems exist is relevant, but these do not necessarily define a religious group as being a "cult."

I write as a former member of Maranatha (1987-1989) who readily admits some disagreements with both Maranatha and Every Nation's doctrines and practices. However, in NO WAY can this article be considered neutral.

(Comment: As I have mentioned above, the article seems to me to be only reporting information that is, itself, biased. i.e. the reports from investigations into Maranatha. Perhaps we need to know more about Maranatha itself and how it operated other that from investigations. This might include naterial from ex-members and/or leaders, as well as those opposing it. Of course, the author could be sifting the available information in an apparently neutral manner. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

Jcr4runner 04:08, 5 January 2007 (UTC)JCR4RUNNER

(Final Comment: The information from the investigations is typical of any 'outsider' looking in to a Christian culture - they are simply not going to understand it. Therefore, their conclusions need to be carefully weighed up in context before accepting them as being true. Dare I say, they are not 'Gospel' ;-)

e.g. tithing and no dating are not intrinsically evil, although when enforced, they effectively become unenforcable. Rebellious human nature will soon see to that! Tithing may put money into the pockets of the leaders, though some would just call this a wage or salary - otherwise, starve in a field! For most churches, part of the tithing is used for community support, charitable acts, missions and so on. And no dating? Dating obviously leads to sex, and sex to single-parent children. If you don't already know the facts, then do the research and discover the numerous and significant negative effects of children who grow up in single-parent households. Perhaps no dating until ready to marry might actually just be an astonishingly beneficial blessing to society when looking at the big picture. Noggle 06:17, 8 January 2007 (UTC))

Noogle, you are being a little naive about the dating situation at MCM. In fact it was referred to as "The Dating Revelation". This was about control, and not about dating. Marriages were often arranged by elders. Some succeeded some failed miserably. In every way, this was cultish.

As to tithing, it exists in some parts of christianity. But in MCM it wasn't about community support or charitable acts. You would be luck to find one example. MCM was elitist and either ignored or chased away anyone needy. That we were referred to as God's elite army should tell you the thinking. In every aspect, it was a socialogical cult.Osakadan 09:14, 8 January 2007 (UTC)