Talk:Michael (archangel)

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	Michael (archangel) is part of the WikiProject Saints, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Saints on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to saints as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to saints. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
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Contents 1 Hebrew Wikipedia 2 Trumpet 3 "Archangel Michael, Nom De Plume" 4 Translation 5 the revelation of john describes him further 6 Michael in the book of Judges 7 Which translation? 8 Saint as Adjective 9 Question about Reiki - 10 Editing needed 11 Shrines of St. Michael 12 Plagurism? 13 Chaldea? 14 Michael: affirmation or question? 15 WikiProject Rating 16 Repetions

[edit] Hebrew Wikipedia

Hebrew Wikipedia claims that name Michael appears in the Hebrew bible where he had appeared before Abraham before his death. This seems like a discrepancy which should be fixed.

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Q: in this page it says that Michael is the only archangel metioned in the bible (Dan.) In the general article on angels it states that both Gabriel and Michael are in Dan. I seem to remember reading about Gabriel in the book of Daniel last time i read it also. I dont have a bible with me at the moment so maybe someone else would like to clear this up.--Phoebus 22:05, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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He is also mentioned in Apocalypse 12:7, "And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon."

Entered the reference. --Wetman 03:13, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

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Well, damn.im cool I wasn't logged in (how that happens I'll never know), so the summary is now incomprehensible. I was the one revising. --MichaelTinkler

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Protestants would call him Michael or the Archangel Michael as an angel cannot be a saint, only a human can. --rmhermen

While I agree with Michael that we're probably better off leaving the "saint" out of the article title, I have to point out the Catholic/Orthodox rationale for calling an angel a saint. If we understand "saint" to simply mean "holy", as it does in most other languages, then unfallen angels who stand in the presence of God singing hymns and offering their prayers can surely be said to be holy. This broader understanding of the word "saint" is how Protestants understand the word when they say every Christian is a saint, so there shouldn't be a huge disagreement here. The more understandable difference is in using "Saint" as a title, and the whole canonization process. To me, it's much easier to understand why Protestants would be uncomfortable with recognizing a select few as capital-S saints. See also saint. --Wesley

While Protestant certainly dispute the idea behind capital S saints, saints does not just mean holy for all Protestant groups. Concepts like perserverance of the saints clearly only apply the term saints to fallen humans who have been redeemed. --rmhermen

Why is the name "Saint" still in the title, when it is agreed that we are talking about an angel, and not a human being who was canonized as a saint? RK 21:42, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

In case you're wondering, the Catholic usage of the word saint explains why an angel gets the title - the Wiki article on saints explains this very well.--Krupo 06:59, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

(Roman Catholic usage trumps all at Wikipedia.)

Straying off topic, but in that concept, when fallen humans are redeemed, are they not made holy in the process? Otherwise, what good does it do to be redeemed? Wesley 15:55 Sep 26, 2002 (UTC)

That all depends. What precisely do you mean by a "fallen human"? I have never heard this term. What precisely do you mean when say that one can be redeemed. I understand what Chrisitians mean when they say that someone was "saved"; is this the same thing? Finally, what do you mean by being "made holy". Do you mean like being out in a state of permanent grace, like Jesus or Buddah? I know that in Jewish thought, human beings are rarely called holy (or for that matter, unholy). Rather, their actions are considered holy or unholy. God, and the angels, OTOH, are considered inherently holy. RK 21:42, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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I've declared myself in favor of calling all saints by their names rather than by 'saint so-and-so'. --MichaelTinkler

I agree. RK 21:42, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It is unworkable. Many saints are only known by first name. Take away saint and they are unrecognisable. BTW the formal name is St. Michael the Archangel and I have renamed the article to reflect it, to make it clear that he is not a saint in the canonised form but called saint as an honorary title. FearÉIREANN 23:08, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Problem - Jews and Muslims simply refer to Michael as "Michael". They never refer to him as a Saint; the same is true of the Bible itself. Also, many Protestant Christians also refer to the angel Michael simply as "Michael", or as "Michael the archangel". Only those familiar with Catholic or Orthodox naming terminology would be able to find this article with this name. I think we should name the article simply Michael, as it used to be called, or perhaps Michael (angel). Within the article, of course, we can continue to state that Catholics refer to this angel as St. Michael the Archangel. RK 23:40, 13 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Calling the article Michael is unworkable as it would cause all sorts of disambigulation problems. Michael is not called Michael the angel. The term archangel is generally used to describe him. Michael the Archangel is the most recognised name, and using the most recognised term is standard wiki policy. I have no particular hangup on the saint honorific, though that is how he is referred in christian Litanies. But Michael the Archangel is internationally recognisable, Michael (angel) is not. FearÉIREANN 20:43, 14 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Good compromise. Thanks RK.

[edit] Trumpet

Isn't it Gabriel who blows the trumpet on Judgement Day?

A trope such as this has a history in literature and representation, which is what makes it interesting to the rest of us. Anyone care to trace this development? Tuba mirum spargens sonum etc etc?--Wetman 21:36, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Michael, one of the chief Princes, came to help me;........and there is none that holds with me in these things, but Michael your prince.[Dan.10:13,21]. For some, it is almost impossible to believe that this could refer to our Lord JESUS CHRIST! Michael means, One like GOD! He has many, many names and just as Satan is the prince of evil, so JESUS is the prince of life. In Daniel He is also called "Messiah" the prince [9:25]. While Satan always wants to exalt himself, CHRIST is the opposite, He accepts the lowliest names and positions. in Daniel 11:22 JESUS is also called the prince of the covenant. In John 12:31 Satan is called the prince of this world.

In Revelation 1:5 it says: "And from JESUS CHRIST, who is the faithful witness, the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in His own blood." While he humbles Himself into the dust and took our place, He elevates us to Kings and Priests [v.6; 5:10; 1.Peter 2:9]. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Councilor, The mighty GOD, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." [Isa.9:6].

Rolf Vaessen

—Thank you for sharing: there's always time to devote a moment to a sermonette at Wikipedia. --Wetman 14:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Archangel Michael, Nom De Plume"

"Archangel Michael is a Nom de plume of a prominent Messianic believer in Messiah Yeshua." Whether or not this statement is "true", it contains no information and has been removed here for improvement. --Wetman 16:35, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Translation

I went ahead and added the information from the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia, but couldn't find a translation of one line:

militiae coelestis quem honorificant angelorum cives

Can somebody get translation of that? My Latin ability is limited to liturgical phrases. Text was removed, nevermind. Done, thank you.-- Essjay · Talk 08:34, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

No, I moved it to make better context when I translated it as you asked: "Medieval Christians considered St. Michael as the symbol or emblem of the Church Militant and as the patron saint of soldiers, in the Roman Catholic liturgy, Princeps militiae coelestis quem honorificant angelorum cives ("Prince of the celestial army whom the city of angels honor"). " --Wetman 14:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So you did; it was late and I didn't catch the change to the top. Honestly, it wouldn't have bothered me to remove the text; I was just keeping the CE text together. I'm glad you got to the translation so fast. Thanks for the clarification. -- Essjay · Talk 04:45, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

The term "Church Militant" is not a correct translation. The meaning of "militiae celestis" refers to Michael's army of angels-heavenly warriors who fought the fallen angels. "Church Militant" is the part of the Roman Catholic Church membership that are still struggling here on earth,ie, living human beings. The other two parts refer to the saved dead: the "Church Triumphant", who are those who died and are in heaven, and the "Church Suffering", who are those souls still in purgatory. See the current Catholic Encyclopedia, and the Wikipedia article on the term. Further medieval Christians regarded a number of human saints as military patrons, most notable being St. George. The fact that there were other military patron saints is already mentioned in the article. The Latin phrase doesn't seem to add anything new. Deleted.

[edit] the revelation of john describes him further

[edit] Michael in the book of Judges

Sorry, but the captain of the host of the Lord is a pre-incarnate showing of the Lord Jesus Christ, who came in the form of a man. Verse 14 says that Joshua worshipped him. Michael is a created being, Jesus is not because he is God, and God alone is worthy to recieve all the praise. The holy angels refuse to be worshipped (Revelation 19:10; 22:9). The response is always the same, "Worship God!", so if Micahel was the captain of the Lord's host, and he did recieve the worship for himself, then that means that he was probably Satan in disguise and God is a liar and a trickster for sending his greatest adversary to Joshua. But God is not a liar, so the Commander Of The Lord's army is Jesus Christ in as pre-incarnate appearance(theophany/Christophany).

The word "worship" appears to be an interpolation of the KJV. It's in neither the Masroetic[1] nor the Septuagint[2]. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:12, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

But only God can make a ground holy.And since the Father and Spirit are invisible to man, we are left with only one option: It was God the Son.

You mean to say that God cannot sanctify a place while working through an agent? Or even without being physically present? What an odd idea. TCC (talk) (contribs) 03:04, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

God's Agent is Christ Jesus. And Jesus Christ is God, so God was physically present.

I shouldn't have to point out that this is circular reasoning, but I will anyway. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Which translation?

The article doesn't mention which translation is used for the passage of Joshua. --BHC 10:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Saint as Adjective

It is tempting to see the word, Saint, as applied to Michael the Archangel, as originating in the adjective "sanctus," or holy. Latin being the language of the Church, the translations into the vernacular might then have taken the word as Saint. This practice would have been even more prevalent in languages derived from Latin, in one form or another. For example, in French, the words, "saint Michel" would mean holy Michael, although the title Saint Michel is the one actually used; consequently, the Chivalric order which named itself after Saint Michel gave its name to the area of Paris which it occupied, finally giving us the Boulevard Saint Michel and the famous statue depicted in the article.--PeadarMaguidhir 20:55, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question about Reiki -

I have a friend whom practices Reiki. What are the dangers in Reiki in respect to calling on archangels such as Michael. In respect to Christianity and the bible, does this practice violate the worshiping of other Gods? I have heard of Christian healing practices. Would a Christian practice use the Holy Spirit? Would it be safer? Any insight into any of these?

This is not the place for this discussion. Feel free to email me if you'd like a traditional Christian viewpoint. If you use that form while not logged in, please remember to give your email address in the body of the message so I can reply. TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Editing needed

Uncritical editors are permitting material like the following to filter into this article:

• "Most consider Michael, by his humble and honorable nature, to be the personal adversary of Lucifer, no matter if they consider Lucifer, Samael and/or Satan to be the same being." Unsourced pious effusion without hard content. "Most" do not consider anything of the kind. Michael and Satan are already better covered elsewhere in this article.
• "One legend tells that the Cherubim were formed from the tears Michael shed over the sins of the faithful." Unsourced pious effusion. This would be of some interest if the first appearance of this assertion could be instanced.
• "Michael is also said to be the patron saint of loners and those who find themselves oppressed. ". A touching confession, but not noted anywhere.

The article has become a jumble of modern cult and historical development, presented at haphazard without distinctions. The development of the Christian cult of Michael is worthy of a specific section, apart from contemporary cult and titles. --Wetman 13:29, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Shrines of St. Michael

There are certainly thousands of cathedrals, parishes, chapels and shrines named for this archangel worldwide. Where are we drawing the line for notability? TCC (talk) (contribs) 21:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plagurism?

Either a large portion of this article was plaugurized (forgive my horrid spelling, tis late here) or we were ripped off by the catholic encyclopedia:

It would have been natural to St. Michael, the champion of the Jewish people, to be the champion also of Christians, giving victory in war to his clients. The early Christians, however, regarded some of the martyrs as their military patrons: St. George, St. Theodore, St. Demetrius, St. Sergius, St. Procopius, St. Mercurius, etc.; but to St. Michael they gave the care of their sick. At the place where he was first venerated, in Phrygia, his prestige as angelic healer obscured his interposition in military affairs. It was from early times the centre of the true cult of the holy angels, particularly of St. Michael. Tradition relates that St. Michael in the earliest ages caused a medicinal spring to spout at Chairotopa near Colossae, where all the sick who bathed there, invoking the Blessed Trinity and St. Michael, were cured.

         --- from [The Catholic Encyclopedia]

It continues all the way through the sentance "In some parishes (Isle of Skye) they had a procession on this day and baked a cake, called St. Michael's bannock.", the last on the linked page. Kuronue 00:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I see above someone "added information from the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia" -- apparently they added the exact wording from the encyclopedia, which is very much copyrighted. Kuronue 00:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia is very much public domain, and text from it may be freely used. We generally don't want to do that here because that work is written with a strongly Roman Catholic POV, but there's no legal bar to it. TCC (talk) (contribs) 02:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Both Encyclopedia Britannica 1911 and Catholic Encyclopedia are in the public domain and have furnished the jumping-off point for thousands of Wikipedia articles, in which further editing has quite often entirely superceded the original wording. --Wetman 02:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't know that. Cool. Kuronue 15:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chaldea?

I removed the following since it has no basis in fact or legend as to the Biblical origination of St. Michael:

The figure of Michael probably originated in Chaldaea as a protective god or spirit. Accepted by the Jews, he emerged as...

It needs a citation if you're going to say that the Jews took a pagan idol and made him into an Archangel. Jtpaladin 00:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Michael: affirmation or question?

"Micha-El" means "Who is like God". But should there be a question mark after it - in other words, is this a comparison ("he is the same as God") or a rhetorical question ("Who is like God? No one..."). Can any Hebrew scholar help. Obviously I am not disinterested ;-) Nick Michael 21:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The Latin equivalent "Quis ut deus" implies a question (or it would have been "qui ut deus"). Obviously Latin is not Hebrew, but I that at least points to the question form going back some ways. Mlouns 21:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Mlouns. Disappointed...! Nick Michael 22:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Also the legend of the name's origin as the battle-cry of the loyal angels suggests it's a question, albeit a rhetorical one. (The obvious answer is "no one", contra Satan's self-exaltation.) TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:25, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Rating

I have added a rating of "B-Class" to this article. There are good graphics/pictures throughout, the article is divided into readable sub-sections, has appropriate wikilinks, and has an extensive bibliography. However, much of the material was cut-and-pasted directly from Catholic Encyclopedia, and reflects the POV and sometimes awkward prose of that resource. Futher, this article would benefit greatly from in-text citations rather than a Bibliography. Pastordavid 17:39, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Repetions

Saint Michael appearing to Constantine and and Pope Gregory the Great's renaming Hadrian's Mausoleum after him is said twice. I don't have the time or energy to correct that or even log in. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.21.96.49 (talk) 17:27, 24 February 2007 (UTC).