Talk:Military science fiction
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I followed the link for MSF, and since there was no page, I started one. Please add/subtract/expand to it.
What about Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card?
I think we should discuss some more of the examples given.
Ender's Game - qualifies barely, but is very atypical for the genre. The follow-up books don't qualify.
Star Wars: Not Military SF, but rather Fantasy in Space
Vorkosigan books: Not really Military SF, although they borrow some concepts, especially in some of the books and stories
Weber and Drake: More or less the most typical examples around
New: The W.R. Forstchen Lost Regiment series is not set is space, but might qualify
Among movies, some Babylon-5 episodes and some Deep Space 9 episodes come close, as well as much of Battlestar Galactica.
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[edit] Video games?
Nearly all sci-fi games have some kind of a war going on. Starcraft, Freespace, Wing Commander are more space opera than military to me (and are in fact listed in the space opera article, too). I find it difficult to explain, though. In both cases the player is part of the chain of command and the games are about interstellar wars. However, the games don't take the wars that "seriously".
On the other hand, in I-War (Independence War) the player commands a fairly large corvette in a human conflict. He gets to make critical decisions, and actually has to watch as his crew gets thrown out of the airlock one by one. The story takes guerrilla warfare and even the "military-industrial complex" into account. The working title was Infinity War, as the story was about ending a prolonged cycle of hatred. Gameplay is far more realistic than in other games of its genre, including tactics only possible when Newton's laws of motion are in effect. The "military feel" was perhaps the game's main selling point. Although there's a lot of space opera in I-War, I think it qualifies as both.
I think one critical aspect of military SF is that the "military part" -- strategy, tactics, training -- is comparably realistic. In computer games that would mean Starcraft is not Military SF. Something like Harpoon in a space setting would be a perfect example in Military SF in games. VGA Planets?
I suggest either removing Starcraft, Freespace and Wing Commander and such from the list or writing a chapter with descriptive examples of military SF in games. The list leads the viewer to the wrong direction.
Anurmi 17:14, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Some more suggestions (about which I'm not sure)
What about:
- Jerry Pournelle, S.M. Stirling: "Go tell the Spartans"
- Jerry Pournelle, S.M. Stirling: "Prince of Sparta" (BTW: Is there another in this series?)
- Jerry Pournelle: "Janissaries", "Storms of Victory"
- Roger MacBride Allen: "The Touch of Honor", (and the second book in this series, english title unknown german title is "Die Fackel der Freiheit").
[edit] Some more suggesstions
I am new at this so I hesitate to add it to the the main page. But I think the following fits in MSF
I would also vote for "Janissaries"
I'd add the Dorsai series by Gordon R. Dickson. Pinkmouse 14:47, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV problem
Is the endorsement of the Honor Harrington series appropriate? I'm a fan of it, and I say that an encyclopedia should not promote it. SpaceCaptain 16:42, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Good point, as much as I like HH, this was a bit over the top. This article had some problems, including lack of lead, I believe it is slightly better now. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:18, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)
And somebody's put the Honor Harrington endorsement back in! SpaceCaptain 15:58, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Actually, it seems to have been there all along. I just took it back a notch... --Stephan Schulz 18:19, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Call for More Historical Depth
I very much enjoyed the section on military science fiction. The only constructive criticism I might make is that I think it emphasizes the modern (particularly in regards to anime) at the expense of the field's historical depth and breadth, which in my opinion needs to be expanded a bit. For example, there is no mention of Gordon R. Dickson's Dorsai series, or the contribution Joe Haldeman's Forever War made to the field, only that it did. These were both very important innovational works, particularly the latter in the way it also presages cyberpunk's tone.
- More depth would be great. Go ahead, be bold ;-) --Stephan Schulz 23:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I also can't agree with the above commenter that Ender's Game is peripheral to this science fiction sub-genre.
- That's me, altough the signature is missing. Ender's Game is a great book. But it is very different from the core genre. There is little focus on technology and real war, the protagonists are kids, the focus is on the development of Ender and not on the external conflict. I think it definitely belongs in, but is one of the demarcation cases. --Stephan Schulz 23:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Finally, I must mention that the exclusion of Star Wars smacks of personal bias. I mean, I just don't see the case for excluding it given the definition:
Military Science fiction is a subgenre of science fiction where interstellar or interplanetary conflict and its armed solution (war) make up the main or partial backdrop of the story. One definition of military science fiction is science fiction in which the main characters are part of the military chain of command. Another is science fiction in which the detailed depiction of conflict forms a major part of the action. Yet another is science fiction in which war is shown from the point of view of a soldier.
Clearly, there is a chain of command, armed interpersonal as well as interplanetary conflict, both of which are important to that story. If you want to exclude Star Wars, clearly something in the way the definition is written needs to spell out some feature of Star Wars (not directly of course) other than cliched to disqualify it. If not, the omission is a gaping one.
- You miss part of the definition. In Star Wars, the main characters are not part of the chain of command. Nor are they soldiers. They are Knight, Princess, Smuggler or Servant. Star Wars is a fairy tale in space. --Stephan Schulz 23:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
Finally, what about Asimov's Foundation? Can this be considered an early example of military sci-fi? It has military interplanetary conflict.
- No. It has armed conflict, but it very much anti-emphasizes the military angle. --Stephan Schulz 23:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Kratman's final solution
I removed this paragraph as it does not contribute anything valuable to the article while being too controversial. Discuss here (and also message me) if you disagree.
- (This can probably be related to Kratman's repeated mentioning of a "Final Solution to the Moslem Question".)(Actually, Kratman used something like the expression "Final solution to the Moslem question" exactly once, and then in the context of something he expected France would do if there were to be a Moslem insurrection in France. Also, in context, it appears he was thinking expulsion by France was rather more likely than extermination.)
Kent Wang 23:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Point of View
This is a great article, but I am a little concerned about the POV of some portions of it. After reading the viewpoint portion of the article, I came away with the feeling that, "unfortunately, Conservative authors dominate the Military SF field, but, all is not lost, as there are a few noble liberally oriented authors out there." TheRedAnthem 19:43, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
- It should be deleted
The conservative/liberal comments are questionable and imply a value judgement inconsistent with Wikipedia's standards. Reporting the facts is sufficient, to judge the relative conservativism or liberality of the authors is inappropriate, especially since one of the most often cited authors, Jerry Pournelle, has clearly stated his opposition to the entire concept of a single left-right, liberal<->conservative political axis and offers an alternative in his "Pournelle's Political Axes" image.
- I agree, that section reads in a very indignant, politically or ideologically motivated tone. If some sort of "evidence" or "proof" could be cited to support the point, I would suggest that it just be cleaned up, but I suspect the whole section should just be deleted. JDS2005 06:30, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Star Wars is no more military SF than the Norse sagas that inspired it. The characters are individual knights errant; individualistic, mythic heroes fighting against the modern forces of regimentation and industrialization.
Star Trek is more about exploration than military action. The story takes place on a military vessel, but the majority of the stories are more like the adventures of Captain Cook exploring the south seas than the story of an Admiral Halsey defeating the enemies of his country. RonS 21:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
