Talk:National Democratic Party of Germany

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This article is part of WikiProject Fascism, an attempt to better organize and unify articles relating to the fascist ideology, its impact on history and present-day organizations closely linked to both of these (ideology and history). See project page, and discussion. This article may be listed on an index of fascist movements or people. Such listing may be controversial; feel free to contribute to discussions there. The presence of this Talk page-only template only implies that the subject is of interest to the associated WikiProject.

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Contents 1 Right-wing populists 2 extremists 3 Dresden bombing 4 Dispute Section 5 Fascism and the right 6 68.57.33.91 7 NPOV 8 Source sought 9 Program? 10 Moving to National Democratic Party of Germany 11 2005 election results 12 Iranian football team 13 Quotes from Voigt 14 Contradiction. 15 Tag? 16 Party colors 17 Doubt on a date 18 Grammar

[edit] Right-wing populists

The category "Right-wing populists" is rubbish.--Schlesier 14:50, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Because it would be better to call most of them neonazi? 141.35.17.32 11:10, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

• • Right. I don't think right-wing populists is ideal, but criticisms that lack alternative suggestions are not constructive. --- Charles Stewart 11:51, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Why not just "National democratic"? Or "Authoritarian natioanlists?"

• • They're no democrats. They look like democrats, but in my eyes they're Nazi's. (Posting from Germany)

the NPD is against what they consider 'liberal capitalism' National anti capitalism (in German). In the polls in the runup to the september 2005 election many people who voted NPD in the regional elections are now shifting over to Lafontaine (former SPD social democrat leader) and Gysi (leader of the PDS, the successor to the east German communist party SED) and their Linkspartei (left wing party). They are doing this because of the many similarities in the platforms. Of course there are also differences but it is clear that a party who is anti-capitalist cannot be considered in any way 'right-wing'. Fascism, at least in terms of economic policies, is in fact quite 'left wing'. --Marcel1975 20:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, they might be against 'liberal capitalism', but in my opinion it's just an act of deceiving the frustrated electors as well as the unemployed population. The NPD IS right wing and it IS populist, believe me, the economic aspect is the only one, where they seem to be left wing, thats why Hitler's party was called the National SOCIALISTS. And the fact that the NPD supports Neo-Nazi-Bands/Gangs etc, shows their attitude very well. (Also a posting from Germany)

Yes, the political spectrum is what makes this party of course right-wing extremist. Thanks for all those little Germans showing up here trying to bluntly propagate and weasel-word around. I found this article extremely one-sided, populist-drenched and clearly to see who wrote it: somebody favoring the NPD. So please, having a close look on this site would be very necessary from my point of view. But I guess there is gonna be editwar soon if any of these ** regularly checks for changes. well, good luck

While I support your efforts to correct this article, and will try to readd some of it, slurs like "all those little Germans" are anything but helpful. And even wrong since the person who reverted your edits was posting from Philadelphia, USA.

[edit] extremists

That is unaccptably POV, as is Neo-Nazi. Sam Spade 08:12, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

What, then, is in yout opintion a NPOV way to express the undeniable fact the the party is politically more extreme and to the right than any of the established parties? --Brazzy 08:50, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

what do you mean 'undeniable fact'. That is a POV. When it comes to economic policies, the NPD is a radical left wing party with it's avowed anti-capitalist platform. --Marcel1975 20:19, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

How about far right? Sam Spade 10:42, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds OK. -- Brazzy 13:52, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

How about extreme far left.

t How about getting educated?? A party is not singularily constituted by its economical programme. In fact, saying economical programme even goes too far in the case of the NPD. Having some populistic points of view does not make you have policies. The NPD declares itself nationalist (by definition right spectrum of politics), they oppose immigrants (by definition far-right spectrum of politics), ... many more to look up. Just a case that proves again how the political extremes share commons. But this never makes the NPD a far left party.

Perhaps this is just A proof of how limited the scale of Left-Right is limited and that a party and/or ideology can take elements from both.

[edit] Dresden bombing

This page is about the NPD, and is inappropriate for the discussion of the various estimates of casualities of the WWII bombing so exhaustively discussed in the talk pages of Bombing of Dresden in World War II. If you dispute the estimates given in that page, the place to discuss it is *there*. If you don't try to argue there, or fail to win your arguments, don't cry when your edits here are reverted without argument (all arguments which have appeared here have been raised there). --- Charles Stewart 14:13, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Here are a couple of online sources which might help people who do not trust a wikipedia article:

• The Bombing of Dresden in 1945:Falsification of statistics, by Richard J. Evans, Professor of Modern History, University of Cambridge, a detailed critique of the statistics used in the Bombing of Dresden.
• Historical Analysis of the 14-15 February 1945 Bombings of Dresden (http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm) Prepared by USAF Historical Division Research Studies Institute Air University. Section: The Immediate Consequences of the Dresden Bombings on the Physical Structure and Populace of the City. backup site. Paragraph 29. The comparisons use data extracted from "Fire Raids on German Cities", United States Strategic Bombing Survey, Physical Damage Division, January 1945. Supporting Document No. 34.

The first is a devastating critique of David Irving's Dresden numbers (typically 135K), which were used against him in his British libel court case Irving v. Penguin Books Limited, Deborah E. Lipstat. The second is interesting because using statistical analysis the number of dead mentioned by modern authoritative historians fits within the range of %ages of dead against populations in other German cities in which fire-storms were generated.

Two authoritative books, the first in German

1. ↑  Götz Bergander, Dresden im Luftkrieg: :Vorgeschichte-Zerstörung-Folgen (Wilhelm Heyne Verlag, Munich, 1977)
2. Taylor, Frederick. Dresden: Tuesday, February 13, 1945. By Frederick Taylor;
   • US review, Pub (NY): HarperCollins, ISBN 0060006765.
   • [http://www.bloomsbury.com/BookCatalog/ProductItem.asp?S=&isbn=0747570787 UK

Appenix B Counting the Dead. --Philip Baird Shearer 19:17, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

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I have deleted the following line in this article:

"Later the same year the party used the slogan "Marx statt Hartz" (Marx instead of Hartz), a phrasing suggestive of sympathy for socialist ideas."

The above statement is wildly speculative and without any merit. It is also suggestive of the NPD's support for Marxist type Socialism (ie. Communism ) which is highly unlikely if not laughable.

Peter Marx is the NPD's parliamentary manager in Saxony. The slogan "Marx statt Hartz" ( Marx instead of Hartz ) is in all probability a reference to Peter Marx, and to either Peter Hartz, who is the personnel director of Volkswagon, or to the set of unpopular new labor laws known as the Hartz Concept ( Hartz I-IV ) which Volkswagon's Peter Hartz helped pushed through in Germany.

--Joanneva 5 July 2005 03:18 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute Section

I have marked two statements as being dubious as relating to certain facts being in question. It appears that for some portions of this article, the investigative process went no further than to relate data from certain web articles which were also in error.

1) The NPD person who used the phrase "holocaust of bombs" was not Holger Apfel but rather Jürgen Gansel. This is clearly designated in the minutes and actual speech text from the Sächsischer Landtag (Saxony Parliment) in document 4_PlPr_8_201_1_1_.pdf. I do not know if it would be a violation to upload the document therefore I am not but I do have a copy in my posession.

2) The original writer of this article also claims “He went on to call the Social Democratic leader of the parliament, Cornelius Weiss, "an old Jew",

Again using the same document as recorded by the Sächsischer Landtag and the same 4_PlPr_8_201_1_1_.pdf file where the complete comments of Jürgen Gansel's reference to a 'holocaust of bombs" (not Holger Apfel ) were recorded, I find that nowhere does he refer to Cornelius Weiss, as "an old Jew" nor did Holger Apfel for that matter.

--Joanneva 5 July 2005 21:42 (UTC)

The document I am referring to can be located by visiting the web site of the Sächsischer Landtag here [1]

The document is:

AktDeb NPD PlPr 4/8 21.01.2005 S.460

PlPr 4/8 S. 462 463

--Joanneva 7 July 2005 01:22 (UTC)

[edit] Fascism and the right

There is open debate on rather facism is rightwing or not. People like F. A. Hayek, as well as many others state that these parties are state controled collectivists, and therefore leftwing. -- posted by user:68.57.33.91, moved to talk by Ferkelparade π 08:20, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

A comment on this: user:68.57.33.91's edits are an example of WP:POINT and it's only a matter of time before he gets blocked ofr this. The proper place to discuss the issue of whether fascism beomgs to the ight or not is the far-right page, which does, indeed discuss this. --- Charles Stewart 15:31, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

This should be discussed any where an unsubstantiated claim of far right or far left is mentioned. I don't see any sources quoted when these labels are used. It is the author's point of view. I think on individual articles, people should refrain from using far-left, far-right, right or left, because that is a point of view of a person, or maybe even an opinion of society as a whole. Those terms should be used only on the far-right, far-left, left, right, left-right politics pages , est. And when mentioned on those pages it should be stated as to why they may be considered left-right and by whom, and to ensure nuetrality, any varing body of thought and whom expresses it. Only when everybody related to a topic are represented do you have true nuetrality. I haven't seen an encyclopedia yet that is nuetral in its articles. - user:68.57.33.91

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I apoligize for changing rightwing on pages, but froem my understanding of the rules, I thought people were allowed to edit content of an article. Do you have to talk about it first, before any edit. I, also thought, you could state NPOV on a page, then talk about it on the talk page. I'm sorry I stated it on the article page, but I was trying to explain the reason I stated NPOV. - user:68.57.33.91

Nationalism or state socialism is not rightwing. It is socialism, because it requires supreme devotion to the state as supreme concern and focus of all citizens. The citizen serves the state and promotes the states interest. It is not the state promoting the concern, protection, interests and individual liberties of the citizens. It is anti-communism, because it allows capitalism and personal ownership of property or capital, as long as the companies and individuals do what the state tells them to do with the capital or property, like oscar Schindler. He snuck behind the Nazi's backs to help the Jews, so he wouldn't lose his property. Socialism isn't just the state ownership of capital; it is the state control of all capital. If it were just the state ownership of all capital, then it would be Communism. They hated communists because the communists wanted to have the state own all capital. The National socialists just wanted to control everything, that way they wouldn't be responsible for all the upkeep of capital, they could have the companies and individuals do that. Plus, it is easier to play policeman(or macro-manage)over private owners[national socialism], than to try to fully control(micro-manage) every action of the people running state owned property[communism]. Socialism is: n. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or run by a centralized government that controls the economy. state socialism: n. < stAt 'sO[sh]&"liz&m > : 1. An economic system in which the government owns most means of production but some degree of private capitalism is allowed. -neutral nobody Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:National_Socialist_German_Workers_Party" (Neutral nobody 22:59, 9 November 2005 (UTC))

Well, then why not just claim Hitler a socialist? Yes, The NSDAP must have been such a leftist party!! By looking at any encyclopedia not right-wing biased, you're most likely to find fascism being classified as a rightist phenomenon. It is without question the term used (by far) mostly classifying fascism. You could also argue about whether a strawberry is red or not (yes it is green sometimes), still not a reason to not write that strawberries are red.

[edit] 68.57.33.91

68.57.33.91 is an IP address of a private multi-member network. I will sign up, so others in the network don't get associated with my work. I thought each user was identified by their computer address, not the network address. - Nuetral Nobody

signed up now (Neutral nobody 19:10, 9 November 2005 (UTC))

[edit] NPOV

Right wing party is a Biased point of view, please do not remove the NPOV until this has been throughly discussed!

Nationalism or state socialism is not rightwing. It is socialism, because it requires supreme devotion to the state as supreme concern and focus of all citizens. The citizen serves the state and promotes the states interest. It is not the state promoting the concern, protection, interests and individual liberties of the citizens. It is anti-communism, because it allows capitalism and personal ownership of property or capital, as long as the companies and individuals do what the state tells them to do with the capital or property, like oscar Schindler. He snuck behind the Nazi's backs to help the Jews, so he wouldn't lose his property. Socialism isn't just the state ownership of capital; it is the state control of all capital. If it were just the state ownership of all capital, then it would be Communism. They hated communists because the communists wanted to have the state own all capital. The National socialists just wanted to control everything, that way they wouldn't be responsible for all the upkeep of capital, they could have the companies and individuals do that. Plus, it is easier to play policeman(or macro-manage)over private owners[national socialism], than to try to fully control(micro-manage) every action of the people running state owned property[communism]. Socialism is: n. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or run by a centralized government that controls the economy. state socialism: n. < stAt 'sO[sh]&"liz&m > : 1. An economic system in which the government owns most means of production but some degree of private capitalism is allowed. - (Neutral nobody 05:44, 10 November 2005 (UTC))

Nationalism is general viewed as right-wing. I'm not sure what "state socialism" has to do with it. Socialism has nothing to do with "supreme devotion to the state as supreme concern and focus of all citizens". That is communism on the far left (USSR, Cuba, etc) and fascism on the far right (Germany, Italy, Spain, etc in the 1930s and 1940s). Socialism is the opposite, unless you believe that we should swallow Hitler's propaganda. Socialism puts the state (governments, corporations, etc.) under the control of the people, taking power away from the elite and giving it to all citizens (West European countries after World War II). 172.212.154.215

You are wrong. Nationalism is a form of State Socialism. Hey dude, I gave you dictionary definitions. Here they are again:

Socialism is: n. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or run by a centralized government that controls the economy. - my emphasis

state socialism: n. < stAt 'sO[sh]&"liz&m > : 1. An economic system in which the government owns most means of production but some degree of private capitalism is allowed.

The highlighted part of definition one and all of definition two describes what nationalism, facism and nazism does.

(Neutral nobody 04:32, 18 November 2005 (UTC))

From which dictionary are you quoting? I have some sympathy with your complaints about labelling of left- and right- to extremists, although my preference is to say that the meaning of left- and right- comes from the operation of a parliamentary system (which is historically correct), and pariah parties like the NPD are beyond left- and right-, even if we can identify left-wing and right-wing features of their program. Nonetheless, if you are the anonymous editor who has been repeatedly reverted, the way you were going about things is in violation of WP:POINT. The right way is to add a neutral description of the problems with the regular manner of labelling things to the pages that defines left-wing and right-wing, in a manner that gains the confidence of your fellow editors, and use that to try to persuade . Ie. be constructive not disruptive. --- Charles Stewart 15:18, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

First, I would like to note that if all you're relying on is dictionary definitions to support your view, your argument is pretty shaky as a start. Dictionary definitions, especially when it comes to complex or abstract concepts like, philosophy, politics, or yes, socialism, are somewhat lacking. That's where encyclopaedias come in. Comparisons with nationalistic ideas and socialistic ones normally boil down to two assumptions. The first is the rather risible claim that since the Nazi party had "socialist" in their name, they must be socialist. This, of course, proves nothing - would you say that the German Democratic Republic was democratic because it had the word "democratic" in its' name? The second assumption is the one that N-n here has made, which is one with more intellectual rigour than the sematic battle I mentioned. Essentially, that "right-wing" means anti-state control, therefore fascism, because of state involvement in society, must be left-wing, or socialist. Alas, for every event there is a theory which is simple, easy to understand, and dead wrong. First, I think N-n's definitions are overly simplistic. He ignores that there are large numbers of groups who by no means could be called "socialist" even though they supported state action, and would probably be described as "right-wing" or "conservative", for instance, moral conservatives or monarchists, protectionist industrialists. All would support the intervention of the state in the life of the citizen. What was Pinochet if not one of the "right-wing"? None, by any stretch of the imagination, could be called left-wing or socialist as we understand them. So N-n fails to understand that there are different trains of thought in what is considered "right-wing", and tries to lump what he sees as favourable inside it, and what he does not with "socialism", "left-wing", etc. Not all "right-wing" people are hearty defenders of personal or economic freedom. Even if you accept N-n's definitions, it's a false dilemma logical fallacy. Under N-n's definitions, one can either support state action to be "left-wing" or not support state control and be "right-wing". Since under N-n's definitions, fascism cannot be "right-wing" it must be "left-wing". It's simply a false dilemma, because fascism and nationalism are difficult to quantify on the left-right scale. Of course, the left-right scale is flawed. That doesn't mean we can hammer it into a different, equally flawed shape. --MullHistSoc 19:39, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

One) these aren't just definitons in dictionaries. The beliefs that state control or collectivism is leftwing and that little or no government control(anarchy) is rightwing are beliefs held by many like F. A. Hayek and others. The problem is the people with this view are a minority. There are so few who subscribe to this view, because when people like Hayek strongly expressed these views there was a heavy collectivist POV in acedemia and elite circles. Many of these hi-brows didn't want to believe that their collectivist views were from the same family as Hitler and would eventually lead to the same results eventually. These Hi-brows became the leaders in institues of learning and passed their collectivist bias down to future generations. They refused Hayek's assertions, because it tied Hitler to their pet philosopies. They were oppossed to Hitler's Racism, so they refused to see him on the left. They had to put him on the right, because in their minds he couldn't be on the left because his collectivism included racism. Acedemia always influences culture and has passed down to the culture its inncorrect assertions. Also, a majority of the political scientists tend to be left-leaning in their assertions and views. Some right leaning and so-called centrist political scientists have grown up being taught this same left wing bias from the leftist teachers of Hayek's era. So most people you quote would give this false assertion of their being right-wing collectivism

Socialism, nationalism, communism, monarchies, est. are all collectivist, and therefore leftwing.

I am a centrist because I believe in limited government - a republic. I don't believe in direct democracy (one man one vote on every issue), because man is to busy or some are to uneducated to make informed decissions on all issues. And since anarchy is the far right, with weaker forms, than republics, on the right and collectivism is on the left and reaches to the far left in totalitarianism,then that makes me a centrist or classical liberal- not a modern one.

P.S. Today its the same way with the same left-wing collectivist thinkers, they repulse at the idea that their mighty collectivist ideals may be linked to Hitler in any way.

O'yeah! People don't claim Hitler was a socialist because it was in his party's name. Quit trying to be cute. They say he's a socialist, because he was! (Neutral nobody 08:20, 3 December 2005 (UTC))

N-n, you would be surprised at how many people do make that assertion. Obviously you don't go to the same forums I do. I don't really recommend it, either.

You haven't really proved anything. Essentially you've said "all collectivisms are left-wing". Why? "Because Hayek said so" - I'll note at this point WP:CITE. You're also using a different definition of left-wing from everyone else, that of relative political involvement. By your definition, I would be on the far-right, as an advocate of direct democracy. "Left-wing" is an essentially subjective term, so the only way to describe it objectively is to give the position that is prevalent. Controversial definitions, therefore, aren't exactly going to be thought of as NPOV, frankly because they're trying to frame a philosophical position in a way which would not be agreed with.

Also, frankly, as a political student, I'm appalled at how you're trying to straitjacket millenia of political thought like this. It's simply more complex than just "Ooooooooh, collectivism! Left-wing!" To say that right-wing collectivists are actually leftist because Hayek says so as well as "just being influenced by left-wing academics" is to ignore political philosophers like Burke, who lived centuries before any of those cursed "liberal academia" came about.

I'll just note, again, that the left-wing/right-wing dichtonomy is flawed as a way of analysing political standpoints. --MullHistSoc 11:21, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Source sought

I deleted the following claim from the 2nd paragraph:

The NPD advocated a program nearly identical to old Nazi ideals and began combining various Neo-Nazi groups under its authority. This, in combination with a leadership of former Nazis from the Hitler era, alarmed the West German government and the allied occupation forces still technically in charge of Germany.

The claims made here are not absurd, but they go beyond what I think is the case. Does anyone know of good sources for these claims (or what they should be) offhand? I'm going to check de.wikipedia soon. --- Charles Stewart 01:31, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

The NPD wants to rebuild the "Reich" (Reich=Empire; allusion to "Das Dritte Reich", as the Nazi-Empire was called). Udo Voigt said: "Unser Ziel ist das Reich, unser Weg die NPD." (Our aim is the "Reich", our way is the NPD). According to the NPD Germany is bigger than the "Bundesrepublik" (federal republic). They want to reclaim the borders of 1938. The NPD supports the so called "Kameradschaften"; these are militant Neo-Nazi groups. They also want Germany to drop out of the NATO, like Hitler dropped out of the "Völkerbund" (dont know the translation, sorry).

[edit] Program?

It's nice to say how much of the vote they got in each election and to fight about whether it is extreme right or left, but what this article does not say, is what is the platform of this party??? How does it compare with other nationalist parties like the Parti Québécois? Qaaa 00:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2005 election results

I've inserted the results for the 2005 federal elections. You can access my source, Deutsche Welle, by clicking here. If you hover your cursor over the blue sonstige/others bar, it shows the minor-party results. You can also access state-level results on this page. I'm not sure how long they'll keep this page up, so if you want to check my source, you may want to do it now. --metzerly 03:45, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

This source no longer exists. I tried accessing the source through the Deutsche Welle site but it would not work (for me at least). After a very quick google search for another source I couldn't find anything, perhaps you could find another one. Break 18:44, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iranian football team

Why do supporters of this party support the Iranian president and the Iranian football team?

First, the NPD strongly supports a "Germany first" platform - not only in regards to the country's own needs, but also in terms of maintaining Germany's unique character and identity, resisting forces such as "Americanization and influence from abroad."

Iran, secured in its Islamic fundamentalist cocoon, seems to have done a fair job preserving identity, rejecting western influence and its “corruption” on principle.

The second point rings true with some in the far right who identify with Islamic traditionalism – not necessarily its strict guidelines or female repression – but certainly its rejection of extreme liberalism. Similarly, the NPD is a strong advocate of social order and discipline taking precedence over the individual will, which also seems to ring true in the Iranian theocratic system.

Iran represents viable opposition to the ideals of fully privatized internationalist capitalism, which threatens to alter the landscape of Germany thru market dumping. Similarly, it contributes to the particularly sore issue of immigration and unemployment. In Germany, the unemployment rate is atrocious in some areas, yet immigrants are being hustled in as gaestearbeiten for cheap labor. This violates the “Germany first” principle. Some Germans who identify with the NPD are suspicious of the BRD and believe it to be only under the heel of international bidding. Iran’s defiant president has become some what of a rogue for standing up to the pressuring powers of what some would all too quickly label “ZOG”. Not surprisingly, there has been somewhat of a symbiosis between Islam and the “far right” due to their president’s statements about the Holocaust. While some would all too quickly suggest the common ground of anti-Semitism, it goes deeper than that, because the Holocaust is the guardian of preventing “Germany first”, it encourages internationalism and ultraliberalism, it denounces increased state power and nationalism - all make up a new, sort of neo-fascism.--Hohns3 08:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

this should be incorporated into the article--unsigned comment left 15:08, 20 September 2006

Well, maybe it should be incorporated into the article, but not with the words used above which are very POV. From another standpoint, one could say that the NPD supports Iran because both NPD and the Iran regime are antisemitic, narrow-minded and oppressive. Blur4760 12:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

additionally, as stated in the article, ahmadjinedad openly denied holocaust. of course that would find applause within the ranges of neo-fascists.unsigned comment left 00:04, 20 November 2006

Perhaps, but I object to this addition. The NPD has not said that their support is due to the fact that "ahmadjinedad openly denied the holocaust" and even then, "denied the holocaust" is nothing more than a press-sanctioned interpretation of what President Ahmadinezhad wishes to convey. See for yourself what Ahmadinezhad has to say about the matter, [2], then make your conclusions.

Yes, a contigent of the NPD-supporting public, your textbook, racist Neo-Nazis, probably do support Ahmadinezhad for his "holocaust denial", but I remind you that the NPD article is about the NPD, not the certain demographic they attract. Even if the NPD does attract a Holocaust denying contingent, that does not mean the party mirrors these exact views! Abstract caricatures of the NPD are all too common in the media, and the party is often portrayed interchangeably with images of a very peculiar public that, as I've seen, is not the greater whole of the party. Small wonder the rest of the world believes that the NPD is a party of asozial bonehead-skinhead monsters. Could 38% of Postlow [3] be the types shown over and over again in the media? Where are these votes coming from? I think the answer is that the NPD is becoming a protest party, and if not yet, it is already a gauge of discontent in Germany, particularly the East.

In reference to the above, Hohns3 makes a good point regarding the connection between the Iran and the NPD - they are both oppositional to the guiding principles of the contemporary, so-called "Western ideals". Not saying anyone is right, but Hohns3 provides an interesting take at what could also be seen as antisemitic, narrow-minded and oppressive, as the other two users noted. Very interesting.--Logan3xx 04:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes from Voigt

"Ausländer (foreigners) will be welcomed as guests, but should live and work in their own countries."

Why is "Ausländer" not simply replaced by "foreigners", since it really is the same thing--217.85.122.43 23:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

• It is the same word. Besides several parts of the article have a pro-NPD POV, I will try to improve it a bit. --Hurax 14:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction.

Under "philosophies", the last paragraph seems to go to great lengths to say that it's a "moderate, centrist party", which I find highly questionable given that it was attemptedly banned. Also, the rest of the articel seems to contradict that one paragraph, which is phrased in a manner suggestive of a persuasive argument, rather then a neutral attempt at information. 68.39.174.238 16:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see it. It does say that in terms of Economic and Fiscal policy that they tend towards moderate, which is more or less what Udo says in the statement above, financial support to young people vis a vis Bafog etc. which, indeed, already exist.--66.188.71.170 04:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No, the words "moderate" and "centrist" don't fit this party at all. The reference website's (political compass) definition of right-wing and left-wing are not used in Germany, where the historic legacies of National Socialism and Communism carry the most weight. The FDP is not considered right-wing, but liberal or "neo-liberal". Besides the adoption of current NPD policy towards immigrants and their descendants, and to the EU, would provide a far greater shock to the economy than any ideas of the Left Party/PDS, which is also nothing a moderate party would do. Also in the recent years the NPD has adopted anti-capitalist rethoric and tried to capitalize on the opposition against Hartz 4. I don't have time now to correct the POV and inaccuracies presented here, as such a controversial topic needs to be edited carefully, but appreciate if someone does. --Hurax 23:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

read the sentence again. it says in terms of economics. Then it jumps to an explanation of the "extremism" in the NPD's nationalist philosophy. You are correct in saying the terms "left" and "right" varry around the world, but this outdated model has gone far beyond its original purpose, royalist vs. radical, and is often contradictory. I agree with political compass on this one; it doesn't matter what people like to refer to the NPD as in Germany, New Zealand or even Pakistan. There needs to be a new standard that functions scientifically, rather than resorting to localized perceptions. The 4 point model seems to fill this gap. Hurax, would provide a greater shock to the economy has nothing to do with positioning along a political scale. I noticed also that you are quick to point to the Hartz 4 as a populist move, rather than adherence to its program. "Communism" itself can mean so many things, all of which seem to again divide into the social/economic spheres, proving the need for much more than a 2 point scale (i.e...if the socialism is international or integrated into a nation, if minorities are balanced out or told Gute Reise, if small time capitalism is allowed or not). If you want to see a "right wing" party that is to the right, see National Front (France).--Nilus8 23:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the terms "left" and "right" are problematic and perhaps outdated. But it is still in widespread use, whereas the redefinition of those words used by "Political Compass" is but one of different 4-point models, and I can't see any evidence of any of them being but a minority position even in the USA. And looking at the descriptions in Far_right, everything except monarchism would fit the NPD. That I view their capitalizing on the Hartz 4 protests as populist is my personal opionion, thus only here in Talk. On the wiki article on the FN I can't see any major differences to the NPD, so please explain why they can be called "right" and others not. My French is rather rusty though. But giving deportations and ethnic cleansings the euphemistic label of "good voyage" (gute Reise) is nothing but blatant cynicism and misantrophy on the worst historic tradition.--Hurax

No cynicism intended. Germany would be a much happier land if that was all it had done, all joking aside. Now you could be right or wrong in your assessment that Hartz 4 was a tactic to gain votes. However, you seem to view this conceivably populist act as an "unknown" that we will be able to later look back upon and classify as a deviation or continuation of policy. I'm not so sure that this is the case; populism can also be a continual guide in itself, taking a page from the ideas about "nurtured, organic volk", the NPD advocates a hypothetical situation where the goverment closely interracts with the people. It also forwards the importance of strong community-orientation, order and so on and so forth, so it is hard to imagine that social welfare would not be a key point of NPD philosophy. Voigt recently said in September that if the constitution threatened the welfare/survival of the German people, it should be amended. This is all part of populism and, in theory, it happens naturally when the community comes first, other matters follow, and capital comes last. This is the complete inversion of priority that fits the capitalist scheme (but not the opposite of capitalism itself). Yet despite all of these wishes for state and volk interraction, it is hard to see how a small parliamentary group (the NPD today) could occupy such a position as a minority, thus explaining why the key policy at the moment is to get people to the polls.

So goes the NPD. I suggest you read the party platform and action program, [4], they will probably answer most of your questions. The thing that makes the NPD definitely left of the right is its borderline statism (whether it is officially "statism" or not does not matter) and what you have only viewed as a woo-ing tactic of sorts, its populism. And yet, despite its "statism", there is no amending of private property (which would obviously put it far to the left). If you are familiar with the grueling and still largely unresolved Keynes-era battle over the meaning of "socialism" then you would understand why the NPD is not right-wing and varies slightly from the NF.

Along a plane of fascism and liberalism, the NPD advocates clearly advocates social order and societal control, as does the NF, and both aim to put an end to the rapid immigration in the process. Some of these points have addressed both the economic and social sphere simultaneously. When social control issues spill over into economics or concern the administered care by the state, this is where the NF and NPD part ways, along the liberatarian-communist polarization scale. If you are trying to think of the embodiment of NF, think of America when it claimed to be a democracy but societal regulations were tight, proper behavior was simply expected and order and regimentation were just as important...all the while, free enterprise was the basis of society. "Tolerance" was never the order of the day. The NF sees itself as a continuation of the ideas put forth in the Declaration of the Rights of Man in 1789, which says quite a bit about its platform, strict adherence to republicanism, but from some points of view, no, it is not very "tolerant". The Liberty, Equality, Fraternity cry of the French Revolution could be interpretted any number of ways though, which is the contention of the right. When the NF says they see themselves as a continuation of the DOTROM, the are making an assertion as to what the Framers had in mind and had intended. In their opinion, the literal translation of this slogan was not what they had in mind. It deserves to be mentioned that the political spectrum in France is now so far to the left that its left is approaching full-fledged communism by US standards. It enjoys a different sort of reception in France, too.

In conclusion, I think you are looking at regulatory social policy, national considerations or an interest in the homogenous model as your guide for "right-wing". Once upon a time, this was right wing but then along came that floundering behemoth, the Soviet Union, which was "fascist" but not, highly regulatory - authoritarianism - and yet far left. Since then, trying to piece together a workable 2 point left-right scale is like trying to hold a conversation when half of the alphabet is missing. A scale that cannot make a distinction between anarchist liberatarians and authoritarian communists cannot be a good thing.--Nilus8 07:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tag?

if you are going to tag something, you have to give a rationale beyond certainly not NPOV, and cite specific examples.--72.94.78.209 11:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Party colors

I don't think that brown is an official color of the NPD. Since the NPD's logo consists of the colors black, white and red (also the colors of several former German flags), I'd rather assume that they are the party's colors.--217.85.80.90 13:28, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Brown is not officially the party's color, but it is what the general populace identifies it with and what is used to represent the party in poll graphics. --Brazzy 15:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Only the official party colors are relevant here.--217.85.83.235 14:39, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Not true. Prevailing inofficial usage is very much relevant, though it should be marked as such. --Brazzy

It's no "inoffical usage", it's only used by its opponents as pointed out correctly in the first chapter of the article.--217.85.75.128 18:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Although brown isn't the official colour of the NPD, it is associated with it because brown is associated with Nazi parties. In the German Media, people who vote for the NPD are referred to as "braune Wähler" brown voters. 13:00 UTC 14 March 2007

[edit] Doubt on a date

I've got a doubt about the 2003 date given for the attempt of forbidding the NPD. In the German and French wikipedias, the date "2001" is given... 86.212.50.28 17:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

The government and parliament applied for the ban in 2001, but the decision of the constitutional court to abort the procedure was in 2003. --Brazzy 15:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grammar

This article is strewn with appalling grammar- incorrect verb tense, basic stuff like that. Perhaps it was a non-native speaker making a lot of edits. Regardless, someone should go though and clean it up --Jordanus maximus 06:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)