Talk:National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam
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This article has been split from the article Viet Cong for reasons discussed at Talk:Viet Cong. --Michael Snow 21:35, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
the US-Nope. That was the Viet Minh, a different organization. john 00:23, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
OK, thanks. RickK 02:19, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Title
Now is it National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam as in the text, or National Front for the Liberation of Vietnam, as in the title? Currently this article and Viet Cong partly duplicate each other, which should be handled. Get-back-world-respect 16:19, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
- I'm sorry I can't give you a definitive answer, since I can't translate the Vietnamese, but I highly doubt the word "South" is in the name of the organization, since the NLF and People's Republic didn't rhetorically acknowledge a separate country of "South Vietnam." -- Cecropia | Talk 16:39, 28 May 2004 (UTC)
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- The title of this article must be changed - the organization was called the National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam, in both English and Vietnamese. I don't know how to go about changing the title page myself. Cripipper 11:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- The correct title is "National Front for the Liberation of Southern Vietnam" (literally: National Front for the Liberation of the southern region of Vietnam). "Southern Vietnam" implies that Vietnam is a whole country and that the South is not "liberated". If they wanted to say "South Vietnam", they'd have said "Nam Việt Nam" and not "miền Nam Việt Nam" in their title. DHN 21:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
- The title of this article must be changed - the organization was called the National Front for the Liberation of South Vietnam, in both English and Vietnamese. I don't know how to go about changing the title page myself. Cripipper 11:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Introduction?
Can a more clear introduction of the "VC" be added? For example, a summary of their key activities (e.g. "guerilla warfare against..." and over what period?). I think the article assumes a basic level of knowledge that at least I do not have.Hu Gadarn 15:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] separate entries?
according to who? and who benefits from the redundancy? Sam [Spade] 04:01, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
After lengthy discussions, the community consensus was that the NLF article should deal with the organization, as the organization referred to itself as the NLF (and never as the "Viet Cong," which was a pejorative term), while the VC article deal with the origins and use of the term "VC" among the South Vietnamese and Americans. 172 04:09, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- really, 'cuz i see a lot of duplicate info in these articles. personally, i think it should redirect. and "Viet Cong" isn't perjorative any moreso than "Khmer Rouge" is instead of "Communist Party of Cambodia" J. Parker Stone 22:45, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The title should be "National Front for the Liberation of Southern Vietnam" as translated word by word from "Mặt Trận Giải Phóng Miền Nam Việt Nam".
[edit] Me, A Kid's Understanding
Sorry for being lousy, but I am only thirteen. Is it that... Viet Minh got rid of the French, and the Viet Cong took this advantage to form an EVIL EVIL communist party? Ho Chi Minh is old evil man with long white beard! VC very evil... or as people call them "gooks". I am sure that someone out there would not delete me out... this is a discussion, right?
- Here's a tip. Read some more and draw out a little chart then ask more specific questions. --Gbleem 15:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Sorry Charlie
Did Charlie exist as a racial slur before the vietnam war? --Gbleem 15:18, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Charlie isn't a racial slur. It is short for "Victor Charlie", which is the radio alphabet equivalent for "VC": Viet Cong. See the article. Racial slurs were terms like "gook", "slope", "zipperhead" and other wonderful bon mots.--Social theorist 10:06, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
-- Charlie is a racial slur, as is Viet Cong. They never refer to themselves as the title. Being called that by aggressors is most certainly a racial slur.
The term "Charlie" did not exist as a "racial slur" prior to American involvement in the war. The origin of the term (note the word origin, about which we are talking) was not racist, but rather as described above: "Victor Charlie" is the American military phonetic spelling of VC, the abbreviation for Viet Cong. (Obviously, before America encountered a group called the Viet Cong, there would be no need for the abbreviation, would there???) Viet Cong was a term used by South Vietnamese government personnel, and was adopted by American forces upon their entry itno the war. It is therefore no suprise that the communist forces would not call themselves "Charlie"; Germans in WWII didn't call themselves "jerrys" or "krauts", either. The point is that all historical sources agree that this is where the term came from, and aside from the obvious effect of cheapening of an enemy, in the same way jerry or kraut or does, there is no inherent racial connotation to the term. If you wish to insist otherwise, I suppose that you have a right to remain ignorant.Chesty95 03:06, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
- Might be a slur, but not a racial one. Dubc0724 14:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
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Did "Boche", "Scleuh", "Jerry" exist for "German" exist to demonize and dehumanize the opponent?
Takima 13:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] American Public "Scared"
I removed the following
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- ...the Viet Cong played a highly successful role in scaring the American public away from the war in Vietnam.
There are several things wrong with this statement, especially the way it was situated in the paragraph. It seemed to imply that it was a public relations coup, but it was simply the nature of the war that made people dislike the war. Of course the Viet Cong was involved in most of the fighting so in a trivial sense they were responsible for the nature of the war. But saying the American public was "scared" away by there tactics is highly speculative about the very complex feelings people had about the war--fear is a oversimplification at best, inaccurate at worst.--Brentt 02:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Why at NLF and not VC?
NLF is an incorrect translation from Vietnamese (it's advocating the liberation of "Southern Vietnam", not "Vietnam"), and is not as well-known as Viet Cong in English. According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), it should be in Viet Cong. If you're interested, please also see the suggested move at Talk:Hanoi Hilton DHN 09:45, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
But see from that article:
- Also, some terms are in common usage but are commonly regarded as offensive to large groups of people (Mormon Church, for example). In those cases use widely known alternatives (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints).
My impression is that Viet Cong is considered offensive by the Vietnamese. Is this not true? Nareek 13:43, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
It depends on who you talk to. For many Vietnamese people that I have met hailing from Westminster (the Little Saigon area), calling the NLF the "Viet Cong" is almost too nice. For others, such a term is a slur concocted by the corrupt Diem regime. Personally, I think this page should be termed NLF instead, whether or not the translation is wholly accurate since the members of that group did not refer to themselves as the Viet Cong. Whether or not this term is as "well known" in English seems to me beside the point.--Social theorist 09:55, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
Viet Cong is without a doubt a racial slur. Would we call the African American page Negros?
- By WP rules, this article should be called National Liberation Front--the simplest, most commonly used term that isn't offensive. Nareek 19:29, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
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- How the heck is Viet Cong a racial slur? It's mostly used by ethnic Vietnamese against other Vietnamese. DHN 08:25, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
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- It's not racially offensive. The term 'Việt Cộng' is a derogatory propaganda term used to create the notion that all members of the NLF were communist. That's why it's not appropriate for common use here. --Ionius Mundus 16:10, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Were non-Communists in the NLF?
The article says that "all VC members were Communists." Assuming that the meaning of VC in this sentence is synonomous with the NLF, I find that hard to believe. The NLF might have been overwhelmingly Communist, but it's hard to imagine that out of the thousands upon thousands of peasants who supported the VC, not even one of them was a non-Communist. I'm willing to bet that at least one or two Buhddists supported the NLF just to get back at Diem --Descendall 04:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, there were "non-communists" in the NLF. The standard historical stance on the NLF is that they were made up of various groups, including remnants of the Cao Dai, Hoa Hao, Binh Xuyen, various Buddhist groups and others who were unhappy with the Diem regime. It seems to me that this article is quite slanted toward the notion that the NLF were only communists and elides what is considered their central raison d'etre: the overthrow of Diem. I would like to see from whence the grounds for this assumption come. --Social theorist 09:42, 23 February 2006 (UTC)
According to Truong Nhu Tang, Social Theorist is correct. Not all NLF members were communist, but all were certainly Nationalists. There could be more changes to make this article NPOV. --UnfathomableJ
[edit] VC and the NVA
It has been alleged that, after Tet, the NLF had to depend more and more on Hanoi for support, effectivley becoming a pseudo-arm of the NVA. Tet had crippled them as an independent fighting force. This may have been part of the goal of Tet: to eliminate the agrarian offshoot southern communists so as not to have to share power with them after the eventual victory. The absence of NLF/VC leadership in the Hanoi government in the post-war years would seem to support this theory, as does the weakness of the RSV government suggested in the article. _________________________________
It has happened well before in 1940, when the South "Trotskists" have upraised and been repressed by the French colonial forces. The Strategical drive of Ho Chi Minh Communist Party was to wait for a more favorable moment and momentum. See OSS Maj. A. Peter Dewey, the first American casualty in 1945, around Saigon's Tan Son Nhut Airport. http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/apdewey.htm
[edit] FLN Program
[edit] Programme du Front National de Libération du Sud Viêt Nam
I - COMBATTRE
1 – Renverser le régime colonial déguisé par les impérialistes américains et le pouvoir dictatorial de Ngo Dinh Diêm et instituer un gouvernement d’union nationale démocratique.
2 -- Le régime sud vietnamien d’aujourd’hui est un régime colonial camouflé sous domination yankee et le gouvernement sud vietnamien servile applique avec dévotion les politiques des impérialistes américains. Ainsi, ce régime doit être renversé et doit être remplacé par un gouvernement d’union nationale démocratique composé de représentants de toutes les classes sociales, de toutes les nationalités, de différents partis politiques, de toutes les religions: d’imminents citoyens patriotes doivent prendre la commande culturelle, économique, politique et sociale dans les intérêts du peuple et ainsi ramener la démocratie et l’indépendance, aussi bien que le bien-être, la neutralité, la paix et les efforts pour une unification pacifique. Du pays.
II – INSTITUER UN RÉGIME LARGEMENT LIBÉRAL ET DÉMOCRATIQUE.
1 – Abolir la constitution actuelle des pouvoirs dictatoriaux de Ngô Dinh Diem, le serviteur de Américains. Élire une Assemblée Nationale par le suffrage universel.
2 – Mettre en place les libertés démocratiques : Liberté d’opinion, de presse, de déplacement, de commerce, d’association et de religion, sans discrimination et mettre en place le droit d’avoir des activités normales de toutes les organisations patriotiques, quelque soient les tendances politiques.
3 -- Proclamer l’amnistie générale pour tous les priso0nniers politiques, dissoudre les camps de concentration de toutes sortes, abolir la loi fasciste de 1969 ainsi que d’autres lois antidémocratiques et autoriser le retour au pays des personnes persécutées et réfugiées à l’étranger
4 – Interdire les arrestations, détentions illégales ainsi que les tortures et punir tous les complices de Diem qui ne se repentent pas de leurs crimes commis contre le peuple.
III – ÉTABLIR UNE ÉCONOMIE SOUVERAINE ET AMÉLIORER LES CONDITIONS DE VIE.
1 – Supprimer les monopoles imposés par les impérialistes américains et leurs serviteurs, établir une économie et une finance souveraines en accord avec les intérêts nationaux et confisquer au profit de la nation les propriétés nationales et particulières des impérialistes américains et de leurs serviteurs.
2 – Soutenir la bourgeoisie nationale dans la reconstruction et le développement de l’industrie et du commerce pour apporter une protection de la production nationale par la baisse des taxes de production et la limitation ou l’interdiction de l’importation des produits dont l’industrie locale est capable de fabriquer, ainsi que réduire les taxes d’importation des matériaux bruts et de la machinerie.
3 – Revitaliser l’agriculture, moderniser la production agroalimentaire, la pêcherie, l’élevage, aider les fermiers à labourer les terres en friche pour développer la production agricole, ainsi que prtéger la récolte et garantir un revenu minimal.
4 – Encourager et renforcer les relations économique entre la ville et la campagne, la plaine et la montagne, ainsi que développer les échanges commerciaux avec l’étranger sans considération pour le régime politique, sur la base d’égalité et des intérêts mutuels.
5 – Instituer un système d’imposition rationnel et équitable et éliminer les pénalités harassantes.
6 – Implanter un code de travail en interdisant les mises à pied abusives et les mauvais traitements des salariés, ainsi que l’amélioration des conditions de vie et de travail des travailleurs publics et privés, de l’échelle salariale et des mesures pour les jeunes apprentis.
7 – Organiser la sécurité sociale du chômage, de l’invalidité, de la vieillesse, de la protection de la jeunesse, des victimes de mauvaises récolte, de cataclysme et des Américains avec leurs partians diemistes.
8 – Aider les personnes déplacées à retourner chez eux et à d’autres qui désirent s’installer au Sud ainsi que améliorer leurs conditions de vie et de travail.
9 – Interdire les expulsions, spoliations et concentrations compulsives de population ainsi que garantir une sécurité d’emploi pour les populations laborieuses rurale et urbaine.
IV – RÉDUIRE LES FERMAGES EN IMPLANTANT UNE RÉFORME AGRAIRE POUR DES PAYSANS SANS-TERRE.
1 – Réduire les fermages, garantir au fermier le droit d’usage de la terre, l’accès à ceux qui la cultivent et le droit de propriété à ceux qui l’ont déjà reçue
2 – Dissoudre les "zones de prospérité" et mettre fin au recrutement pour les camps nommés "centres de développement agricole" et autoriser ceux qui sont forcés d’y être de retourner librement chez eux.
3 – Confisquer les terres des Américains et de leurs serviteurs pour les distribuer aux paysans pauvres sans terre ou avec terre insuffisante ainsi que les distribuer au registre communal sur une base rationnelle et équitable.
4 – Négocier aux justes prix avec les grands propriétaires les terres en excès suivant certaines limites convenues et selon des particularités régionales et les distribuer aux fermiers bénéficiaires sans paiement et sans autres conditions.
V – DÉVELOPPER UNE CULTURE ET UNE ÉDUCTION DÉMOCRATIQUE.
1 – Combattre toute forme de culture et d’éducation inféodée aux modes yankees, développer une culture et éducation nationales et progressives au service de la patrie et du peuple.
2 – Liquider l’analphabétisme, augmenter le nombre d’écoles générale et technique de différents niveaux à la campagne ainsi que adopter la langue vietnamienne vernaculaire et réduire les dépenses d’éducation, exempter de paiement ceux qui n’ont pas de moyens et simplifier les systèmes d’examens.
3 – Promouvoir les sciences et technologies.
4 – Surveiller la santé publique et développer le sport et l’éducation physique.
VI – CRÉER UNE ARMÉE NATIONALE DÉVOUÉE À LA DÉFENSE DE LA PATRIE ET DU PEUPLE.
1 – Établir une armée nationale dévouée à la défense de la patrie et du peuple et abolir le système de conseillers militaires américains.
2 – Abolir le service militaire et améliorer les conditions de vie du soldat en garantissant l’égalité des droits, supprimer les mauvais traitements du soldat et prendre soin de sa famille et dépendants sans ressources.
3 – Récompenser les officiers ayant participé à la lutte contre la domination Américaine et ses serviteurs ainsi que adopter une politique de clémence envers d’anciens collaborateurs des Américains et diemistes coupables de crimes, mais repentis et prêts à servir le peuple.
4 – Abolir les bases militaires étrangères sur le sol du Viêt Nam
VI – GARANTIR L’ÉGALITÉ DES ETHNIES ET DES SEXES’ PROTÉGER LES INTÉRËTS LÉGITIMES.
1 – Implanter le droit à l’autonomie des minorités nationales, établir des zones autonomes avec égalité des droits et intégrées à la nation vietnamienne dans des endroits avec populations minoritaires. Garantir l’égalité entre les différentes nationalités avec le droits de chacune à l’usage et le développement des langues, mœurs et coutumes en abolissant la politique américaine et diemiste de discrimination raciale et assimilation forcée et en permettant aux minorités nationales d’atteindre le niveau de progrès de la population générale, ainsi que développer leur économie et leur culture et former des cadres de ces minorités nationales.
2 – Établir l’égalité des sexes dans tous les domaines.
3 – Protéger les intérêts légitimes des étrangers établis au Viêt Nam
4 – Défendre et prendre soin des intérêts des Vietnamiens résidant à l’étranger.
VIII -- PROMOUVOIR UNE POLITIQUE DE PAIX ET DE NEUTRALITÉ.
1 – Annuler les traités inégaux conclu par les serviteurs des Américains
2 – Établir des relations diplomatiques avec tous les pays sans considération des régimes politiques en accord avec les principes de coexistence pacifique établis à la Conférence de Bandung de 1955.
3 – Développer des solidarités avec les pays neutres, pacifiques et ceux du Sud Est Asiatiques, en particulier le Cambodge et le Laos.
4 – S’écarter des alliances militaires avec d’autres pays.
5 -- Accepter l’aide économique de tout pays qui veut le faire de façon inconditionnelle.
IX – RÉÉTABLIR DES RTELATIONS NORMALES NORD-SUD POUR RÉUNIFICATION PACIFIQUE.
La réunification pacifique du pays constitue le désir le plus cher de nos compatriotes dans tout le pays. Le Front National de Libération du Sud Viêt Nam plaide la réunification pacifique par étapes, sur la base des négociations pour trouver des voies et moyens, en conformité avec les intérêts de la nation vietnamienne.
En attendant cette réunification sur la base des négociations, le gouvernement des deux zones promettra de ne pas utiliser la force, de bannir toute propagande haineuse et séparatiste, d’implanter des échanges commerciaux et culturels et la libre circulation des habitants de ces zones pour des raisons familiales et commerciales et de garantir le libre échange postal.
X – COMBATTRE LES GUERRES D’AGRESSION ET DÉFENDRE LA PAIX UNIVERSELLE.
1 – Combattre toute guerre d’agression et toute forme de domination impérialiste ainsi que soutenir tout mouvement d’émancipation nationale de tous les peuples.
Takima 23:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
u suck
[edit] VM & VC
During the First Indochina War, the French used to call their opponents "VM", "Viet Minh", short for the "League for Indépendence of Viet Nam" until the fall of Dien Bien Phu in 1954. Starting with the Ngo Dinh Diem Regime, it's been "VC" for the opponents until the Fall of Saigon in 1975. It may be usual to downgrade and demonize opponents by the losers.
In "The Art of War", written over two thousands years ago, Sun Tzu says:
"Know the ennemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles you will never be in peril."
Takima 14:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Viet Cong or Vietcong?
Probably not as heated an issue as some other questions here re etymology of "Viet Cong", but I might also note that this should really be rendered as Vietcong... in much the same sense that we no longer write Viet Nam (as was once common practice). see this: http://www.history.uk.com/styleguide/u-w.htm#V
Viet Cong is better (VC). Victorcharlie or Victor Charlie? Viet Nam is also better.
[edit] Viet Cong in Laos and Cambodia during Vietnam War
Is it true that the United States had certain soldiers in Laos and Cambodia during the war in Viet Nam to...well for lack of a better word..chase...the Viet Cong?
Actually, I believe it was because the Communists had several supply trails that lead from North Vietnam to the NLF cadres in the south. The U.S. and SVN did have some operations that lead into the neighboring countries to disrupt the supply chains. Disrupting the supply chains was also an aim of the unapproved bombing in Cambodia.--Asteion 07:39, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Tet Offensive Section?
In the mention about the Tet Offensive, it said "These goals were not achieved, but the US military, media and public were all caught very much off guard by the offensive, thanks largely to Westmoreland's rather faulty prognostications." I had thought that the U.S. and SVN forces had anticipated an attack, but were not particularly prepared due to the truce that had been announced prior to Tet, not because of Westmoreland's "faulty pronostications".--Asteion 07:14, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Viet Cong are american propaganda
How can you write Viet Cong in the articles, when it is a word the american soldiers and the opinion positive to the war used? They never called them self Viet Cong, so why use it?
- Correct. It should only be used to say that the Americans refered to them as this. --Ionius Mundus 16:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Uhh no, not correct, Viet Cong is just short for the Vietnamese phrase for the communist party Viet Nam Cong San. It was first coined by the Vietnamese and then it bled over to the U.S. troops. Asteion 23:31, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- There are 2 things wrong with this. Firstly, although it is true that the term was first coined by the Vietnamese, it was the South Vietnam government who coined that term. The North never used to refer to the NLF as Viet Cong, they called the NLF "quân giải phóng" (Liberation Army). Although now most Vietnamese refer to the NLF as Viet Cong, it is only because it is shorter and most movies refer to the NLF that way. Secondly, NLF members were not exclusively communists, calling them Viet Cong is just inaccurate.--lt2hieu2004 09:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Page move
Every time this page gets moved, it creates a load of double-redirects (now fixed). Let's come to a consensus on the true title of the article. Does anybody want to start the discussion? - Zepheus <ツィフィアス> 20:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] How about some history?
It seems that the contributors to this article are mainly concerned with debates over terminology. Whatever you want to call the organization in question (NLF, Viet Cong, whatever!), all I want from this article is a little history.
- When and where was the organization founded?
- What did the organization do, and when?
- If "Viet Cong" is considered derogatory, who came up with that name, when, where, and why?
- I remember, growing up in the US, only hearing the term "Viet Cong" in the constant news reporting on the conflict, from as early as 1960 (when I was just 4, so I wanted to check if my memories were accurate). What is the history of the use of these terms and the reporting on the organization itself in the international press, and the US press in particular?
These are just some of the questions that I wish the article would address, as you (the good people working on this article) move beyond an evidently fruitless debate towards the construction of a useful article on an important aspect of world history. --Potosino 11:30, 12 October 2006 (UTC) you dont mention in your article how extremely ruthless the nlf were towards their opponents they often killed entire familys
[edit] Legitimacy
In 1969, the NLF formed the Provisional Revolutionary Government which operated until the end of the Vietnam War. But it was a front organization that had no real authority and no other function than propaganda. When the North Vietnamese army captured Saigon in 1975, the NLF and the PRG were set up as a legal front as part of the process of reunification. The PRG never effectively functioned as a real government in South Vietnam. After the Liberation of Saigon, administration was organized by the Vietnam People's Army. The country was reunified under the leadership of the Communist Party of Vietnam as the Socialist Republic of Vietnam in 1976.
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Hey, at least State of North Vietnam and "Viet Cong" were VIETNAMESE experiments, unlike the the colonial puppet of the state of South Vietnam. The article REALLY needs to be cleaned up from anti Vietnamese and Pro USA bias.
Cheers.
