Talk:Neoclassical (Dark Wave)

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[edit] Neo-classical

Sorry, I don't really know Wikipedia system to understand how to put a comments to one of the versions. I completely don't agree that neo-classical music has ANYTHING to do with darkwave subgenre. Neo-classic much closer to some new age styles, because many new age artists are actually working in neo-classical genre. Such groups as Rondo Veneziano or Secret Garden are most typical representatives of them. Neo-classical or neo-instrumental (what is actually the same, but far away from modern classical or darkwave) music is inspired and even based on classical music. Like JP Reverberi music (Rondo Veneziano) is based on baroque music. Some modern artist has no direct connection to the classical music, but the music composed and performed in such a way when the classical music is the most close from the point of composition and ideas. Take George Winston piano solos as example.

PS Look for example at the first paragraph on the wikipedia page about Secret Garden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Garden_(duo)).

230 google results of "Rondo+Veneziano+neoclassical"

47 google results of "Reverberi+neoclassical" ???

compare it with the other results:

3.920 google results of "dargaard+neoclassical"

20.500 google results of "arcana+neoclassical"

140.000 google results of "dead+can+dance+neoclassical".

It's a fact. The most of these neoclassical music artists came out of the darkwave movement. Maybe Secret Garden are musically influenced by darkwave artists? --~Menorrhea 13:26, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Rondo Veneziano is in general not so popular. For "Dead can Dance" Google shown 34 400 000 pages, while for RV only 347 000. These results do not reflect stronger association of neo-classic, but more the level of the group popularity. I don't think in Secret Garden music you'll find mush of darkwave. Let's say like this: for me the main features of neo-classical music are first, very delicate and even refined attention to the melody and composition (but never to the rhytm). Second, music should be composed by modern artist (so far that's NEO-classical). And third (as you described in the article) music should be inspired by early or classical music. JP Reverberi is a perfect example, because he is a modern composer who did everything what is possible to recover and even ressurect baroque music. Secret Garden inspired both by norvegian classics and early Ireland music, what put them close to new age music. There are also many other modern artists with great attention to the melody and composition, and they always closer to new age, than to any kind of rock or pop music. I don't know Dead can Dance music very well. I just want to say (1) For me groups like RV or SG are actually the most typical representative of neo-classical music and (2) I don't see a reason why they should be classified to the different group. Ok, new age and neo-classical music are very close - agree. Neo-classical and darkwave music? May be, that's true as well.

And one more question. 14th of October you wrote: "neo-classical is definitely a darkwave subgenre with dark, apocalyptic sounds". Excuse me, but classical music has ever anything to do with "dark and apocalyptic sound"??? Obviously, if main feature of neo-classical music is dark and apocalyptic sound then it also should be the main feature for the classical music and then somehow adopted to the modern way by modern artists. So, is classical music definitely a genre with dark and apocalyptic sound?

Sorry, that's me again :) Start to look for defenitions of neo-classic by Google and went to the http://music.download.com where I found the following text: "What Is Neo-Classical? Before the dawn of the 20th century, a western movement--loosely referred to as New Age--emerged with the idea that modern civilization was entering an age of intellectual and spiritual enlightenment. Based somewhat on eastern philosophies and a sense of optimism, its cultural impact has been slim yet steady. In 1967 the musical Hair introduced many to "the dawning of the age of Aquarius," and suddenly the concept of positivity, mysticism, and idealism seemed more palatable. New Age music emerged a bit later in the wake of groundbreaking works such as Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells and Brian Eno's Ambient 1: Music for Airports. New Age is a broad term, but its aesthetic consists mainly of gentle arrangements that blend into soothing ambient textures. It can be keyboard-driven and electronic-based, or acoustic and organic in origin. Just don't forget to light a candle as you listen. Notable Artists: Enya, George Winston, Robert Julian Horky"

Do you see notable artists? If you go to the New Age group, at the right panel of the page, you'll find there Neo-classical together with Contemporary Instrumental, Enviromental, Meditational and healing etc., so among typical new age styles.

New Age is New Age, Ambient Music is Ambient Music and Neo-classical Music is Neoclassical Music. Don't waste my time with web-based POV definitions. Hear the Dead Can Dance album "Within The Realm Of A Dying Sun". This is dark and apocalyptic... Neoclassical or (german) Neoklassik is in use since the early 90s. The term came into widespread use with Neofolk. --~Menorrhea 13:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It isn't quite that easy. For example, most "darkwave" bands associated with "neo-classical music" are also categorized as Martial music and Military pop, which in my opinion (oh yes, POV) are much better genre names, as they are not implying an relation with Classical music, which neo-classical bands usually has nothing to do with. 80.216.158.220 01:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

From the links I've shown quite obvious that the same word "neo-classical" is often used both for definition of darkwave subgenre as well as for defenition of new age subgenre. Why are you so sure about you rights to judje and be the only right person in the Universe with no possibility to make a mistake? Go and listen Rondo Veneziano or Secret Garden - they have nothing to do with dark and apokalyptic sound and still people describe them as neo-classical music. Why did it happens that's a different question - but right now people are using the same word in two different meanings. I have a suggestion to put this information to the Wikipedia. Let's describe that the same term "neo-classic" is often used to describe darkwave subgenre (with Dead can Dance and other as a typical artists) as well as to define one of the mew age subgenre (with Rondo Veneziano and Secret Garden as a typical artists). That's fair enough. So far people are using the term in different meanings - both of theme should be described.

Fair? Neoclassical is a darkwave genre, that's a fact. The google result speaks for itself. The music became popular with a dark and apocalyptic sound, Dead Can Dance, Arcana and others are the main artists of the genre.

This is the result of google.com: 271 !!! google results of "Rondo+Veneziano+neoclassical"

I cannot find your result of 347 000 pages. --~Menorrhea 21:04, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, fair. I'm not arguing that neo-classic is not used to define darkwave subgenre, I'm telling you that the same word also applied for new age subgenre. As you already saw neo-classical music is present among new age genres at http://music.download.com. If that's not enough - go to the www.allmusic.com one of the biggest and famous music guides in the Internet, open New age styles (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&token=&sql=73:117) and find "Neo-classical" among new age subgenres. That's a fact as you used to say - new age is a genre and neo-classical is a style within this genre. I'm not going to convince you that music of Dead can dance or Arcana can't be described as neo-classical music, but I'm showing you examples that term "neo-classic" is also used for the designation of other music types as well. So far you like Google so much, type there "Secret Garden and neo-classical" and you will get more then 104 000 pages (http://www.google.com/search?hs=XNO&hl=ru&client=opera&rls=ru&q=Secret+Garden+and+neo-classical&btnG=%D0%9F%D0%BE%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BA&lr=), while Secret garden music doesn't have even traces of "apocalyptical sound". That's correct that Rondo Veneziano usually described themself as just a classical or pop-classical music. On the other hand, they don't performed classical music arrangement since ages. Absolute majority of their music are original melodies composed by GP Reverberi in style and traditions of baroque music, what make them much close to neo-classical music then to classical music itself. Of course, I can write or modify article in wikipedia but what's point to correct one another texts? Let's first discuss the subject properly and then describe the final conclusions.

All the best, Malfet

PS "My result" of 347 000 pages for Rondo Veneziano, which you didn't manage to find, is a TOTAL number of pages Google show for "Rondo Veneziano" query - while TOTAL number of pages for Dead can dance is 34 400 000 pages. Look carefully.

I think we should split the lemma:

• Neoclassical (Dark Wave)
• Neoclassical (New Age)

~Menorrhea 17:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Now you can create a New Age article. BTW: There is a third genre called Neo-classical Metal. ~Menorrhea 19:02, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Thank you, neo-classical is spreading like hell among all possible music types :) Only neo-classical pop and neo-classical classical are missing

All the best, Malfet

[edit] Article naming

Well, seeing as the darkwave article has darkwave as a single word, I think it would be more appropriate to call this article Neoclassical (darkwave). Certainly, it shouldn't have the capitals on Darkwave or Dark Wave, as per Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lowercase second and subsequent words in titles. Anyone have any objection to that? J Milburn 22:24, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you rename the "Darkwave" article to a "Dark Wave" article? This genre is inseparably connected to the New Wave movement and i can't find a Newwave article. Most of the mentions in germany are "Dark Wave" - not "Darkwave". "Darkwave" is mainly a spelling of the Projekt label in USA. They didn't use the term before 1993. --~Menorrhea 17:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

That is interesting, I didn't realise that. I was under the impression that darkwave was the more accurate spelling for a number of reasons- for instance, google asks if I mean 'darkwave' when I type 'dark wave'. Hmmm, looking around a few music sites, the term 'dark wave' does appear to be more prevelent. In either case, this should be moved due to the unneeded capitals anyway. J Milburn 18:06, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

We can't move it, there seems to be a technical problem. I tried the Dark Wave lemma, maybe we must delete the disambiguation. --~Menorrhea 03:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, that disambiguation page meets a speedy deletion criteria, and so I have am nominating it. After that, presuming you have raised the matter on the Darkwave talk page, and a consensus has been met, you will be able to move it. J Milburn 16:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot of life in the darkwave article, the debate should now be moved there. If it is decided to keep it as it is, this article should be renamed as I originally proposed. Help:Moving a page may well be relevent, and the tags at Wikipedia:Cleanup tags#Moving will also be. J Milburn 16:41, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation link

Wouldn't it be nice to have a disambiguation link (or whatever those couple-of-rows-things in italic are) to neoclassicism (classical)? Or would it be just a starting point of an endless sea of such linkings? I found the page a bit confusing, not aware of the whole genre, while randomly skimmed there. :)

Jaakko Kortesharju, contemporary music student, Finland (note, not my own IP, going to keep adding a real name signature if not registering) 87.162.167.20 19:43, 10 February 2007 (UTC)