Talk:New Spain

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The map for New Spain needs to include Costa Rica as well.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 15.235.153.105 (talk • contribs).

I´m not completely sure, but I think that Venezuela was also part of New Spain before the stablishment of the Viceroyalty of New Granada.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 163.178.80.22 (talk • contribs).

Contents 1 Bias & Uncited work 2 Confusing New Spain with Mexico 3 map 4 map anachronstic? 5 Needs more work 6 The Flag 7 Bourbon Reforms 8 Flags 9 NPOV dispute

[edit] Bias & Uncited work

"Quite often, rape was a factor in the reproduction of mixed-race children." No citation.

"Unfortunately this trait has never quite disappeared." Obvious bias.

"most Afromexicans prefer to be considered mestizo, since they feel more identified with this group." No citation.

Several other portions have no mention of sources, either.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jonas Salk (talk • contribs).

[edit] Confusing New Spain with Mexico

As the map clearly shows, New Spain was more than the country of Mexico. Besides including the American Southwest, it also included Central American countries such as Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador and Panama.

So... the problem is that, at the end of the article, the text starts to talk specifically about Mexico.

Mestizos and criollos were nevertheless not allowed in the upper levels of the government or any other position of power, and eventually they joined forces for the independence of Mexico. With independence, the caste system and slavery were theoretically abolished.

Mestizos, while they no longer have a separate legal status from other groups, comprise approximately 60–65% of the population. Whites, who no longer have a special legal status, are thought to be about 15–20% of the population and still have most of the desirable jobs. In modern Mexico, mestizo has became more a cultural term, since a Native American that abandons his traditional ways is considered a mestizo, also most Afromexicans prefer to be considered mestizo, since they feel more identified with this group.

There are a couple different ways to fix the problem...

1. Change the text to be more general and thus applicable to all of New Spain (could be difficult to do)
2. Create a section called "race relations in Mexico" (except this begs the question of why the sudden focus on Mexico)
3. Change the text to make it clear that we are just using Mexico as an example
4. Delete the above text from the article

--Richard 07:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be little research in the making of the article, and even in the commentaries. First of all, New Spain didn't contain all the territories named in the article: the viceroy had certain authority over Central America, the Caribbean islands and the Philippines, but they weren't attached to New Spain. Venezuela had a governor, and was more related to the Viceregal of Peru. A map showing New Spain's territory would have to shade only Mexico (without Chiapas), and U.S. Southwest. Then, there's no mistake if New Spain is confussed with Mexico, yet the article has a tremendous lack of information, and lies very much on the colonization subject.

In other topic, criollos were allowed in the upper levels of government, due to the fact that the Spanish Crown used to sell oficios along the entire 16th and 17th centuries, in a practice known as oficios vendibles y renunciables. Even if they couldn't occupy viceroy's office, they took numerous oidores positions. Mark A. Burkholder and Dewitt S. Chandler have a very reliable study on that subject.

--A.R.I. 03:08, 22 January 2007

[edit] map

The Map should have in dark green (part of the empire) Costa Rica, it is shaded down to Nicaragua, but Costa Rica was part of the empire as well.

[edit] map anachronstic?

Is the map really anachronistic? It seems to depict New Spain as it existed after the recovery of Florida in 1783 and before the sale of Louisiana in 1800 (or perhaps the signature of Pinckney's treaty in 1795 and the abandonment of claims to modern Mississippi and Alabama.) Should we perhaps indicate it as a map of New Spain in 1783? john k 01:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, except that it shows western Santo Domingo and Jamaica as part of the viceroyalty. It seems like it would be better to upload a new map that takes them out, and say it's a map of New Spain in 1783, at its greatest geographical extent, than to have a map that doesn't depict what New Spain looked like at any given time. john k 01:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

•Also about the map: it says in the article that Venezuela was a part of New Spain, but Venezuela is not shaded on the map. Dr bab 06:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs more work

This article puts too much of an emfasis on Mexico. What about all the other Latin American countries, icluding the Philipines. None this is even mentioned in this article. This article needs to expand to mention other Latin American countries, including the Philipines.

[edit] The Flag

The flag reported as the flag of New Spain is not so. This flag is known as "Cruz de Borgoña" (Cross of Burgundy), and, according to Santiago Dotor, from Flags of the World, was the Spanish military flag from the 16th century up to 1843, when the colours of the 1785 War Ensign were adopted for use on land too. So it may have been used in New Spain as well as in any other territory within the Spanish Empire as flag of the Army. Archael Tzaraath 14:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bourbon Reforms

The Bourbon reforms section of this article doesn't really discuss anything specifically related to the Bourbon reforms and rather concentrates on political and military conflicts during the period. Attention should be given to changes in the civil leadership (particularly the appointment of peninsular spaniards instead of criollos in high positions) and the changes in culture that accompanied these reforms. I do not have particular expertise in this matter, otherwise I would have added these changes myself. 128.120.58.142 22:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flags

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Stub	This article has been rated as stub-Class on the quality scale. (FAQ).

Anselmocisneros 20:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

How can such a long article be a "stub"????—Cesar Tort 02:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV dispute

This article through and through is told from the perspective of the colonizers and minimizes the brutality against indigenous folks. Lists of conquistadores, dates, conquests, trade routes. Almost nothing about how they conquered, or what life was like for the conquered-- that is, most people who lived there. These topics are minimized and relegated to the "Criticism of the Spanish Presense", while they should be the main thrust of the article. Nlevitt 18:59, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I see a problem here. If all sort of Spanish brutalities are to be mentioned, the brighter side of the conquest would have to be mentioned as well: especially the termination of the omnipresent human sacrifices in pre-Columbian cultures, which included infanticide rituals not only in Mesoamerica but in the Inca region as well. —Cesar Tort 02:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

the "brighter side of the conquest"? Surely you're joking. --141.157.106.115 15:14, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

No kidding. It was brighter for the kids who, after the conquest, escaped sacrifice by their parents. Take a look at this Discovery Channel article.[1] —Cesar Tort 18:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I propose either (1) to remove the pov tag, or (2) to mention briefly both: the atrocities committed by the conquistadors (e.g., those cited by Bartolomé de las Casas) and the atrocities committed by the Indians (e.g., those cited in the article Child sacrifice in pre-Columbian cultures). —Cesar Tort 21:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

If no objections, I'll remove the tag by the weekend. —Cesar Tort 00:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)