Talk:Origin of Vijayanagara Empire
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[edit] NPoV?
The above heading was added on 24 March 2007, and most of the following headings downgraded in an effort to make the argument below more readable. Could all contributors please follow the guidelines for use of discussion pages, and sign and date their comments please. It is hard to see who has said what in the following text. Imc 14:49, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Psuedo-historian
Kannambadi claims himself to be an authority on Vijayanagar Empire. He has been selectively inserting material to show that Vijayanagar empire solely becomes the heritage of Kannadigas. One glaring example is the omission of Telugu literature. It is common knowledge that Vijayanagar period was a glorious chapter in Telugu literature. Ashtadiggajas (eight great poets) were the most celebrated group in Krishnadevaraya's court. Tenali Rama, known all over India, was a part of the group. The emperor himself was a great poet having written "Amuktamalyada" in Telugu. Many such glaring omissions make Kannambadi either an ignorant historian or a parocial psuedo-historian. As such, his arguments about the origin of the empire should taken with a pinch of salt.
1. False logic: Just because more coins were found with Kannada script, the empire becomes Kannada.
2. The empire initially encompassed predominantly Kannada areas known as Karunadu/Karnata. It is logical that the kingdom came be known as Karnata kingdom. Even Telugu poets referred Krishnadevaraya an "Karnaataandhra" king (of course he was also extolled as Andhra Bhoja).
3. Music composed in Karnata region is known as Carnatic music. That does not make all of South Indian music as that composed in Kannada language. It is simple logic.
4. Bellary/Hospeta/Anegondi area is historically Telugu-speaking area. Only after the reorganization of states, the demography changed.
5. The psuedo-historian does not believe in Sewell who is considered the ultimate authority on Vijayanagar empire. But he conveniently depends on him for list of dynasties, kings etc. What a perversion?
6. A Sanskrit manuscript found in deep Kannada country becomes hearsay/tales for the Psuedohistorian.
7. Mr Deasi is an authority for the psuedo-historian just because Desai based his "evidence" on the fact that the guru of Harihara and Bukka was a Kannada guy. What a great logic!!
8. Inscriptions in Kannada areas would certainly be in Kannada. What else? How does this deny the Telugu origin of Harihara and Bukka?
9. How do Appadorai's statements attest the theory of the psuedo- historian? It beats logic.
10. Marital alliances were made for convenience in medieval times. Hoyasalas were on the decline. They must have found it convenient to give a woman in marriage to Harhara to hang onto the benefits of power. It is again a simple reasoning.
11. What stake Muslim historians would have had in writing that the brothers were captured, converted but voluntarily reconversted later? They only stated facts of that time.
Psuedo-historian makes feeble attempts to reverse the historical facts as accounted diligently by early historians.
I appeal to all Telugu historians to notice and correct the false history being popounded by Kannambadi (Psuedo-historian).
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.197.227.228 (talk • contribs). and —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.141.12.194 (talk • contribs).
[edit] No personal attackes
to the anonymous author of the above comments: Please do not indulge in personal attack. You can comment on the contribtions of an editor, but not call them names like 'pseudohistorian', etc. If you want to correct any incorrect information, please be bold and edit the information with proper citations. Creating a user id for yourself and logging in while editing and signing your comments will certainly increase the value of your contributions among the other editors of WP. I hope you will stick along and make valuable contributions to WP. - Parthi 23:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
This is unwarranted & was not required at all. Even most telugu scholars agree to the kannada/karnataka origin. They also consider as their elder sister. Some telugu fanatic who has no facts/correct information has come here to create some nuasance. If it all if he has any material/concrete evidence of telugu he must produce it. Language wise telugu has evolved very late compared to kannada & it does't need any discussion on that topic here. It is well known that ppl from andhra were using prakrit,sanskrit along with telugu before telugu came into promimence. Kannada was also used in some parts of andhra prominently in olden days. Nobody can change the fact that kannada is older to telugu. Origin of Vijayanagar Empire is very much of kannada origin. Some kannada rulers also started supporting telugu (because of no of speakers in the kingdom) after some time during vijayanagar empire. More than 60 % of old inscriptions,writings are in kannada during this time. The rest is in Sanskrit,Telugu,Tamil.
Sri Krishna Devaraya patronised telugu & gave push up for the language.
who said bellary,anegondi(kannada word),other parts were only telugu speaking..u r one nuts..they may be bilingual along with kannada speakers. U only agree with the fact Telugu started evolving during krishna devaraya times. wat was the status of telugu before that. Tell me more about it. Status of Telugu from 10th to 15th centure. Can you write an article abt it.
you telugu fellow is one hollow minded idiot.
[edit] Reply
Dear Mr Parthi, I hated to do that. But, I did it because he called me Cynic. Please go through the whole discussion I had with Kannambadi here as well as in the "Discussion" of "vijayanagar Empire", right from the beginning. Please tell me who behaved in a mature and logical manner after reading the whole stuff. You got to do it. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.141.12.194 (talk • contribs).
The request was aimed at both parties. We sometimes let our feelings of regional nationalism and language affinities influence our activities in WP. I can see a number of instances of this everyday on WP by various nationalities. It is not worthwhile wasting our energy arguing about petty differenes. Due to the nature of WP and the vast number of input it receives everyday. the neutral point of view and verifiability will prevail eventually with any article. I have also seen this happen. So, there is no point in carrying these arguments to a personal level. There are arbitration mechanisms available to solve content disputes. - Parthi 02:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reply
Dear Mr Parthi, I very much appreciate and respect your views.
[edit] Addition
Some additions regarding the role of Vidyaranya were made. The material was taken from the great South Indian historian Mr N. Venkataramanayya, an authority on Vijayanagar Empire.
[edit] My opinionDineshkannambadi 00:24, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi there. I kind of like the idea of arbitration, but there is one problem. I am not sure what a few guys on wikipedia would be able to decide when noted scholars from India and abroad have not been able to come to conclusion regarding this controversial topic (Kannada or Telugu origin). I was reading something written by well known Karnatakan scholar Dr. Jyotsna Kamat that every new evidence that is brought out only adds more questions to the origin of Hakka and Bukka, on both sides of the fence. I feel we should just continue to contribute without personal attacks and let the world decide for itself. From my side, I have pulled up some interesting books (obviously to bolster my pro-Kannada argument) I intend to buy (at least a couple), add to my collection and read (available at Vedams books).
1. History of Vijayanagar empire - Decline and disappearance, M.H. Rama Sharma
2. Yadavas through the ages - from ancient period to date, J.N. Singh Yadav
3. History of Vijayanagar, B. Suryanarain Row
4. Vijayanagar: History and Legacy, S. Krishnaswamy Aiyangar
5. Sources of Vijayanagar history, S. Krishnaswamy Aiyangar
6. New light on Hampi: recent research at Vijayanagar , John M. Fitz and George Michell
7. Recent advances in Vijayanagar studies, P Shanmugam ans S. Srinivasan
This issue is such a vexed issue that it has really got into local guides at Hampi also. I was there few years back. On the first evening of our tour around Hampi, our ad hoc guide (whom we met in front of a temple) told me that this was an entirely Telugu show, there was no Kannada anywhere in the picture (he must have been of Telugu background)(See, I betray my anti-Telugu bias here). The next day we decided to go with a guide from the "Archaelogical Survey of India" (we payed him lot more though) and he gave us a more balanced opinion (a Kannada local with whom I have wavelength match). In fact he works for ASI both as a guide and in excavations and can be considered more reliable. He gave an account that closely matches what Dr. Jyotsna Kamat writes in her web page that linguistic lines were rather blurred and the need of the hour was an entirely different one (to establish Kannada supremacy).
If one pulls back from all the rhetoric between myself and Mr. Unsigned Telugu, its clear that our arguements, debates and acrimony is precisely "NOT" the reason why the Empire was so successful (Had I been there I would have wiped out all those Telugu affiliations). I believe I am mature enough to understand that (as you can see in all my Wiki contributions to establish Indian history as that of Kannadigas and Karnatka). In fact I intend to go to Hampi again in a few years (with so many places to visit in Karnataka) and do more snooping around (good choice of words!!). In the meantime, I intend to order for some books (I made enough in USA to do so).
Dinesh Kannambadi
[edit] Dont mix arguements
Dont mix arguements of various scholars propounding Telugu origin with those professing Kannada origin. The issue is complicated enough, unless your intention is to confuse people more like the Musilm/European travellers did.
Dinesh Kannambadi
Reply I did not 'mix' it. To refute your logic that para was included. I saw your contributions, edits, talk pages, arguments with other contributors etc in Wiki. Now I am convinced that you are a hardened Kannada fanatic. And you are quite active and doing a great job of claiming Indian history, culture, traditions, sculpture, music, literature and architecture as that of Kannada origin. I hope your work will be demolished by some real professional historians.
[edit] Please provide citations
Plese provide "reference notes with page numbers" for your references from the books of Venkataramanayya and Robert Sewell. This is a wikipedia requirement and rule. I have provided the needfull.Dineshkannambadi 01:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
