Talk:Oskar Schindler

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ] (If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

	Germany Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Contents 1 Lonely being a hero? 2 Works Cited= 3 Cemetary 4 Idiocy 5 spy? 6 Misleading sentence 7 Stupid entry 8 Birthdate 9 His Grave 10 Grave 11 Schindler purposely produced faulty ammunition in an attempt to put the German military at a disadvantage during the war. 12 Schindler was arrested twice on suspicion of conspiracy, but managed both times to avoid being jailed. 13 Irrelevant and ungrammatical sentence 14 Clarification needed 15 An endearing conclusion sentence would be nice 16 Unsubstantiated wording 17 The third Christian named Righteous Among the Nations 18 Homosexual? Illegitimate children? 19 his grave and what his factories made 20 190000000? 21 References 22 German profanity 23 Number of saved Jews 24 Schindler and the German invasion of Poland

[edit] Lonely being a hero?

Acknowledging that alcoholism can be, often is, a progressive disease. Acknowledging that the baseline for entrepreneurship is not real good, that most new businesses fail, even when it's a business you're very familiar with and even when it's adequately capitalized.

So the question is, Why did Oskar have such a rough go of it after the war? Fully acknowledging the above two aspects, and more, I still think a big part of it is that it can be very lonely being a hero. People so much need to see their image of you that they often do not see the real you, and they often do not seem to have the emotional energy for getting to know the real you. You can't just depend on previous friends. Part of a normal course of life is also making new friends. And being a hero can make that difficult.

[edit] Works Cited=

There are no citing notes referenced anywhere in the entire article. Where'd all this info come from? I'm putting a cleanup template at the top. 201.68.117.231 23:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cemetary

"...[Schindler] was buried in the Protestant Cemetery, Mount of Olives in Jerusalem."

I was just watching the bonus material from the movie Schindler's List, and according to it, Schindler's buried on Mount Zion, a Catholic cemetery. Since I'm no expert in WWII history, I simply point out the discrepency here. Hopefully some other more knowledgable Wikipedian can sort it out.

Sounds more probable. I dont know Schindlers religion, but since alot of germans of the Southern regions of Germany were&are catholics, it would make sense to pressume he was a catholic.

[edit] Idiocy

Removed "He has been arested many times once he was arrested for thanking and then kissing a small jewish girl on the day of his 36th birthday."

No source can confirm this, besides, of course, Schindler's List. This is why we don't write articles based off movies.

Added real arrest information.

-alex12_3

It's stated in the currect version of the article that he was arrested for kissing a Jewish girl. Is this or isn't this correct? -68.114.154.249 22:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

==

I have read in a few places (although I don't know nearly enough to write about it) that Schindler armed the Jews in his protection. Some information on this omission would be worthwhile in the article, if anyone knows more or can research it. Lord Bodak 22:32, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] spy?

Quote; Today it's known that Schindler was an Abwehr agent

Can anyone shed more light on this? -- Andrew Chung 18:24, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

A large part of the Abwehr was covertly opposing the Nazis, including its Chief, Wilhelm Canaris, and several key-officers. One source that states Schindler as an Abwehr agent is David Crowe's Schindler bibliography.

Thank you for the link sorry who put their comment here earlier but u didnt time stamp or leave your name (Yes i know i didn't leave my name earlier but i did not know how to use wikipedia before) -- Andrew Chung 18:28, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading sentence

"When advances of the Red Army threatened to liberate the camps, they were destroyed, and a majority of the inmates were executed." I now realize that this sentence meant the general concentration camps and NOT schindler's camp but it was kind of confusing. If I am correct, it would be helpful if someone reworded that sentence. Flyerhell 08:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stupid entry

I removed the comment "He also had a 5 inch penis" from the summary. I don't really see the relevance of this, even if it is true.

Some really cool kid must've written that, naturally. :/ -Anonymous

[edit] Birthdate

The introduction says he was born on the 18th of April. However, section 1 says he was born on the 28th of April. Which is correct? secton 21

[edit] His Grave

Ive seen the movie, and I know that the stones have been put by the Jews he's saved. Are the stones glued sumhow so that no one takes them? paat 19:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I have been to the cemetary in Jerusalem where Oskar Schindler is buried (in March of 1999). I do not know if it was a Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish cemetary, but I can tell you that the rocks are there, and they are not glued on. Having seen the movie, the sight of the stones is, for some reason, very moving. --Shawnsgia 07:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Grave

I went to Jerusalem in April '06 and visited his grave.

Stones are left on a grave by those who visit. This is a Jewish tradition, as opposed to a Christian one. Despite Schindler neither being Jewish nor buried in a Jewish cemetery, it is unsurprising to see the numerous stones on his grave.

Hope that helps

82.33.50.141 18:54, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schindler purposely produced faulty ammunition in an attempt to put the German military at a disadvantage during the war.

Were the Germans so naive, like in propaganda movies, to buy faulty products or rather executed too smart producers? Xx236 12:46, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Schindler was arrested twice on suspicion of conspiracy, but managed both times to avoid being jailed.

The same "twice" mentioned earlier? Xx236 12:50, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Irrelevant and ungrammatical sentence

"He was born into a wealthy business family, for all of Schindler’s child hood he was spoiled, his parents bought him 

anything he wanted and made sure that he lived a full life." I'm deleting this sentence. It should be footnoted or something; plus it is just poorly written, so it's gone.

[edit] Clarification needed

"Schindler...tried—again with help from the Jewish organization—to establish a cement factory." What organization? Clarityfiend 21:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] An endearing conclusion sentence would be nice

Such as; "He gambled a way through history's currents that are shaped, once dug beneath the surface, by men of quite ordinary convictions and preoccupations and mannerisms and fears, and he occasionally won." Cretanforever

Poetic, but out of place in an encyclopedia. Clarityfiend 20:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsubstantiated wording

"Schindler brutally gained the ownership of a factory..." What does that mean? Provide a source and an explanation please. Clarityfiend 20:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC) .. hmm

[edit] The third Christian named Righteous Among the Nations

This is probably true since someone put it here. However to me it gave me the idea that only three Christians were given this honor. If you check out the article you will see that several thousands of people, mostly who lived in Nazi occupied Europe, were so honored. I'm sure that many of them were Christians. I also don't think the Israeli government considered a person's religion in awarding the honor. Steve Dufour 00:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I've edited that paragraph in the article, as there were a number of misstatements. As has been written elsewhere, in fact over 21,000 have been so honored. The award, by definition, is to remember those Gentiles (most of whom were certainly Christians) for saving Jews during the Holocaust. JGHowes 00:20, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Homosexual? Illegitimate children?

Note: I'm putting this back in after an anonymous user at 60.240.56.128 removed it a couple of weeks ago without explanation. (I'd like to know why this was removed, and how it went undetected.) -71.80.31.11 11:29, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I came across the following statement on the IMDb board for Schindler's List:

"But last year, I learned from a biography about Oskar Schindler by David M. Crowe (it was vehemently appraised even in Germany, thus it is most probably true), that Oskar Schindler had a homosexual relationship with Amon Goeth."

Apparently the biography in question is called "Oskar Schindler: The Untold Account Of His Life, Wartime Activities, And the True Story Behind 'the List'". I've heard no mention of this elsewhere, but it's definitely something that should be added to the article if it can be confirmed. -68.114.154.249 22:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I found the following article (originally from the NY Times) speaking of the biography:

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Schindler/OOF1104.html

There is also a claim that he fathered two illegitimate children.

Furthermore, the claim in this Wikipedia article that "In 1963, Oskar Schindler was named a Righteous Gentile (non-Jew)" may be incorrect.

I'm going to check the local libraries for this book, as it should provide quite a bit of information not mentioned in this article. -68.114.154.249 14:32, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Schindler/OOF1104.html

David Irving is hardly a useful source; the original NY Times article would be.

I'm not saying that link should be used in the article, I just couldn't find any other archive of the NY Times article to use in the talk page. The actual biography by David Crowe should be used to reference these facts, if it can be obtained. -68.114.154.249 16:37, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] his grave and what his factories made

The engraved words on his grave, what do they mean? and in the entry he only had the enamelware factory, did he have an ammunitions factory too?

I don't know about the Hebrew (or perhaps Yiddish?), but the German says: "the unforgettable lifesaver of 1200 persecuted Jews". Junes 20:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello : Someone vandalized the section "Early Life." Just pointing this out.

[edit] 190000000?

The statement "He saved as many as 19 0000000 Jews " seems to be off by an order of magnitude or two... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.134.80.93 (talk) 08:18, 9 February 2007 (UTC).

• This edit by unregistered user 203.208.93.226 has been reverted. How can an unregistered user edit this page, anyway? JGHowes 17:19, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

regrettably, the "semi-protection" for this article has now expired and my request today for renewal of semi-protection was declined, so this article is now vulnerable to anonymous IP vandalism and mischief JGHowes 23:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I would highly recommend semi-protection against (anonymous) nazis today, denying the holocaust etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kirjapan (talk • contribs) 05:42, 31 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] References

There are lots of books and external links for this article, but would it be possible for someone to provide inline references based on this material? Citing your sources is crucial for verifiability purposes. We all know what Schindler did, but we need to be able to prove it through reliable sources. See WP:CITE and Wikipedia:WikiProject Unreferenced Article Cleanup for more information. -- Qarnos 09:50, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German profanity

Regarding Schindler's response, when told it was not proper to shake a Jew's hand, this Article for a long time just stated the German word without an English translation, referring to it as "a German scatological term".

Recently, the English translation was inserted by an Editor. The problem with that is many school and home filters will block the article, as a result. This would be unfortunate, in my opinion, because many high school students research Oskar Schindler when studying the Holocaust, and should be able to access this Wikipedia article.

On the other hand, I realize that Schindler's response (although not sourced in this Article, which is another problem) does give insight into his frame of mind and attitude towards Nazi Germany's Nuremburg Laws discriminating against Jews.

So, as a solution, I've "veiled" the English translation by linking it in-line to the Wiki English translation of German profane terms: that way, anyone who wants to can click on the English translation readily, without the main article being blocked by software filters. If anyone has a better idea, I'm all ears. JGHowes 00:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

For me the "insight into his frame of mind and attitude towards Nazi Germany's Nuremburg Laws discriminating against Jews" is clearly shown by his support of Nazi military organization (I mean Abwehr) before the war, by his entry to NSDAP after the war's beginninig, by his participation in the stealing of jewish propety (he gained twice the jewish factory!), engaging of jewish slaves etc.--Honzula 11:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

What I mean: this story for me is nothing more then a story and could be omitted. But we cannot say it's true or false, because the only hypothetical witnesses were Schindler and Itzak Stern and they both say it happened. But I'm sure, the story shows only the Schindler's attitude to rules and not his attitude to the Nazi policy. But of course I cannot prove... --Honzula 11:45, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number of saved Jews

Several days before, somebody changed the number in the initial sentence "Oskar Schindler (28 April 1908 – 9 October 1974) was a Sudeten German industrialist credited with saving as many as 1,200 Jews" to 1,100 Jews. In fact, this number is closer to the reality, but why I suggest to keep the original number is, that Schindler is usually and widely known as the man who saved 1,200 Jews. I think the number 1,200 c r e d i t e d to him could be there together with the real number 1,100 below (may be with explaining comment)--Honzula 11:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

If you have documentation for 1,100 people, then do change it, but before even making such a comment, you should have your facts checked, and documentated, or else it's pretty useless. Besides, his own grave says 1,200, which was put there by the very same people that he saved. - Kirjapan 05:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Schindler and the German invasion of Poland

Honzula, what is the source for your recently added edit, "Then he continued with work for Abwehr, paving the way for the German agression [sic] against Poland"? Stating that Oskar Schindler was complicit with German military intelligence in the invasion of Poland on Sept. 1, 1939, requires a source, please. Until then, I'm removing this sentence. JGHowes 18:01, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Several Czech and Polish authors (and even one English) state this. This was one reason why he move to Ostrava - to be closer to polish borders. Some also says that he was entangled in the Gliwice incident, but it doesn't seems possible. I think, he just collected informations before the invasion. The source is the same: GRUNTOVÁ, Jitka, Legendy a fakta o Oskaru Schindlerovi, Naše vojsko, 2002. (2nd edition). I think, there is no better sourced book in the Schindler's topic. I will find the names of other books in few days.--217.197.144.218 08:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Well the source (book of Gruntová) is added. It is also credited, that also in the book of David M. Crowe nad even Emilie Schindler (Memories) the work against Poland is mentioned. I've read also reference to one book of Robin O'Neil, but I cannot find which one it should be... Well, back to the book of Gruntová: she cites the postwar protocol of two interrogated men - former driver of Abwehr in Ostrava and one informer of SD, they both mentioned Schindler among others who were working against Poland. In the book there is also photocy of two gestapo documents from summer 1940: Then somebody (may be the polish resistance) was misusing the Abwehr forms and envelopes - gestapo jailed one man, who admitted to stealing some papers from the house of Oscar Schindler in July 1939 by request of Polish intelligence service. Schindler then refused, that the stolen papers were the forms and envelopes of Abwehrstelle Breslau and claimed that stolen was only the "private letter" with the stamp of Wehrmachtarchiv and some jewelry of his wife... Very interesting is also the copy of document from July 1938, when Schindler was jailed by Czechoslovak police on betrayal: he admitted that he had (among others) to "observe the emigrants" - the people who came to Czechoslovakia when escape from Nazi Germany.--Honzula 13:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• I don't read Polish and unless there's an English translation, that's not of much help as a reference in the English Wikipedia. I've edited the sentence per WP:REDFLAG JGHowes 01:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

For me it is quite difficult to get the english book such as Crowe's Oskar Schindler: The Untold Account of His Life or the english version of Emilie Schindler's memories. May be, you could check them?--Honzula 17:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)