Talk:Panavia Tornado

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Can't wait to get my hands on a scanner... I've got several shots of a Tornado taken during aerial refueling, and I happened to get several with the wings out, and one with the wings in, all from a nice overhead angle. The resolution kind of sucks, I think it was a disposable camera, but they'll make a lovely illustration of the swing wings, side-by-side (I'll probably merge them into a single image with both shots in it). :) -- John Owens 05:43 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Anybody explain why all the sub pages on the Tornado variants are called for example RAF_Tornado_F3 when they should be prefixed Panavia (Panavia Tornado F3), it is not terminology used by anybody outside of wikipedia. Perhaps we should change it - any comments ? MilborneOne 21:10, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Timeline 2 Merge 3 ECR Versioning 4 Radar system naming 5 Museums 6 Differences between GR and F variants 7 Thrust/weight 8 Use of color profile 9 Multi-Role Combat Aircraft

[edit] Timeline

The timeline takes up a lot of space, it should be moved to a separate page. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 21:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Support - The subvariant pages are largely redundant. If more space is needed, the subvariants should be summarized in the main article (here), and described in detail on a separate "Tornado variants" page. See Supermarine Spitfire, Lockheed Constellation, and F-4 Phantom II for an example of the proper way of doing it. - Emt147 ^Burninate! 21:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Support I agree with Emt147 refer to my comment further up, the variants are wrongly named anyway so a merge would sort that problem MilborneOne 22:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Done It's done. There needs to be some fact checking for consistency, and the article still needs work, but all the information from the other pages has been moved onto this one. I've left the timelines half-merged, pending discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#Timelines. I think a milestones timeline can be a good addition if done concisely. --Mmx1 05:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Nicely done. Thank you! - Emt147 ^Burninate! 06:18, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I think I know why the merger of all the sub-variants took place, due to the fragmentation of info. However I felt like the page got far too crowded and difficult to navigate after the merger. I've taken the advice of Emt147 and created Panavia Tornado variants. Partly because the page was getting far too long (and also over recommended size) but also because I intend to expand variant info which would have made the page far too complicated. Mark83 11:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ECR Versioning

According to this site, the ECR is a variant of the IDS, which makes sense as the Italians converted their ECR from IDS's. I believe the airframs are largely identical, more so than the 80% commonality between IDS and ADV, and should properly be a subvariant.

--Mmx1 02:31, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Radar system naming

In section 2.2.1 ("RAF Tornado F.2"), there's mention of a "Foxhound" radar. Is this right, or a typo with "Foxhunter" the intention? – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 17:42, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Museums

XX947 is now located at Shoreham Airport, other airframes used in the development of the variants have been refurbished for museum exhibition. Panavia Tornado PO2, XX946, was at the Royal Air Force Museum, Hendon, has been moved to Royal Air Force Museum, Cosford. At IWM Duxford is Panavia Tornado GR.1B ZA465/FF 'FK' "Foxy Killer" [not sure if this is really ex-Gulf War becasue it lacks the desert paint scheme]. 81.86.144.210 21:11, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Differences between GR and F variants

This could well be out of date, and also utterly inaccurate - it's been a long time since I had any involvement with the RAF, but as I recall, the GR.1 had 2 cannon mounted in the nose (article quotes 1 cannon on GR.4), and an in-flight refueling system that stood proud of the fuselage. The F.3 in service at the time (early '90s, post Gulf War 1) only had 1 cannon, because the in-flight refuelling system had to be set flush to the fuselage (therefore taking space otherwise used for the cannon) in order for it to be able to achieve supersonic speeds.

Has my memory totally gone, was I always mistaken in this, or is it correct but irrelevant anyway? 86.136.46.103 21:03, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

The GR1 lost a cannon when being converted to GR4, I think for a FLIR sensor. The GR1A had no cannons a think, the space used instead for Sideways radar etc. The F3 always had one cannon. I'm not sure about the refuelling system, the GR4 doesn't have a flush refuelling arm and it is supersonic. Mark83 21:26, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that - glad to hear my memory isn't totally gone; I'm pretty sure I was told the bit about the flush vs proud refuelling pod by pilots in... erm... 27 squadron; I was at Marham at the time, around '92 - 617 were there, 2 squadron was there with the GR1A (guns replaced by cameras rather than radar, if memory serves - they were/are recce squadron), and I think it was 27. Probably the engines got upgraded subsequently - it was a long time ago, after all. 86.136.46.103 21:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

The recce squadrons were II (AC) and 13. The 2 cannons were replaced with an infrared linescan system, which is now no longer used. For recce purposes the RAF now uses the RAPTOR pod.

[edit] Thrust/weight

The figure is obviously wrong--Laur2ro 14:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of color profile

Mr. Giovanni Paulli of www.paulligiovanni.com has bee so gentle to give me written permission to use the color profile I added in the image (see its page for authorisation). In exchange his copyright and his website link MUST be left on the page. So please don't remove them .--Attilios 09:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Multi-Role Combat Aircraft

What does the above link to the Tornado? While the Tornado is an MRCA, there are a lot of other fighter jets that meet that role for example the F-16, F/A-18, Su-30MKI, Dassault Rafale etc. I don't know if this should be a different link ennumerating all the different aircrafts that fall into that category but I do think that it should not link to the Tornado alone. Rakeshsharma

Yes, there are multi-role combat aircraft (no caps). However, there was a program begun in 1968 which was called the Multi-Role Combat Aircraft; it eventually became the Panavia Tornado. That's why the link redirects here. Does that help? - BillCJ 18:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The capitalisation is what makes it different. If it was just a general article about multirole fighters/aircraft the Manual of Style advises that it would be "Multirole combat aircraft". However it was/is the official title of the project that became the Tornado, hence Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. I think the nearest general article is Multirole aircraft (it's only a stub). Mark83 19:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay I understand the reasoning behind it. I am going to suggest expanding on the page for Multirole Combat Aircraft (MRCA), redirecting the Multi-Role Combat Aircraft to that page and creating a disambiguation to redirect to the Tornado. While the Tornados name on its inception was the 'Multi-Role Combat Aircraft', this particular term is now used to describe a multitude of planes hence creating some confusion. In addition I believe that the people who are searching for the Multi Role Combat aircraft might be looking for a page on the category of planes. If someone is looking for information on the Tornado, the disambiguation will redirect them to the Tornado. Rakeshsharma

I would have to disagree about linking MRCA to Multirole Combat Aircraft, most people would associate MRCA with the Tornado Project.MilborneOne 23:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that's such a good idea. One, how many people, really, will be searching for "Multi-Role Combat Aircraft" when they're looking for "Multirole combat aircraft" instead of the Tornado? Creating a Multirole combat aircraft page might be workable, but Multi-Role Combat Aircraft should always redirect to Panavia Tornado. - Aerobird 01:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Point understood. Multi-Role Combat Aircraft was the project name given to the Tornado. However, a person like me for instance, who is searching for Multirole combat aircraft, could also put a search that looks something like Multi-Role Combat Aircraft or MRCA, which is a more generic term as it describes a more broad range of aircraft especially in today's environment. For instance, the Eurofighter Typhoon is also a Multirole Combat Aircraft or Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. The Indian Air Force is considering a tender out for the MRCA which stands for Multirole Combat Aircraft. What I am suggesting is the Multi-Role Combat Aircraft should point to the term rather than the project that was named so. And besides, people searching for the Tornado would rather enter Tornado or Panavia Tornado rather than search for Multi-Role Combat Aircraft if ease of search is what you are really going for. Rakeshsharma 01:57, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Since there is a stub at Multirole aircraft, maybe we should move it to Multirole combat aircraft, as other types of aircraft can be multi-role, but are non-combat (transports, helicopters, etc.) This new page could have a "see-also" link to the Tornado, which could also have a "see-also" link to that page. Would that be a workable solution? - BillCJ 02:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I like your suggestion. What happens to the Multi-Role Combat Aircraft page? Does that link to the Multirole combat aircraft or to the Panavia Tornado? Rakeshsharma 02:21, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd say it should link to the tTornado, but there would be a notice at the top of the Tornado page with a link to the other article. - BillCJ 03:02, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

See that is my argument. The term is disambigous as the term Multi-Role Combat Aircraft stands for more than just the project name for the Tornado. The Tornado already has its primary name which is "Panavia Tornado" which is the current name. The Multi-Role Combat Aircraft was the project name given to the Tornado. But the term is more generic now as it refers to a host of other aircrafts. I agree that the hyphen and the capitalization makes a difference, but Multirole can also be searched as Multi-Role which is where the ambiguity comes in. I agree that putting a disambiguity/See Also notice on the Multirole Combat Aircraft that directs to the Tornado would work well with me. Rakeshsharma 11:14, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at it now, I've added a redirect notice. Feel free to play with the words etc. I linked to multirole aircraft as the alternative? Mark83 11:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I have made a couple of small changes to the words, but otherwise it looks good. User:Rakeshsharma

MRCA, the abbreviation, should refer to the concept, but the phrase spelt out in caps should be to the Tornado.GraemeLeggett 12:06, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

I still disagree with the view, but the redirect notice makes the disambiguity a little less. I agree with Graeme in that the MRCA abbreviation should refer to the concept. I also feel the hyphenated term should refer to the concept first and then the project as the Tornado is also a type of Multirole fighter. Anyway, I appreciate the fact that you are working with me on this issue. Rakeshsharma 12:30, 12 January 2007 (UTC)