Talk:Penge

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Contents 1 Surrey or Kent? 2 MBW / LCC 3 Danish money? 4 Notable residents 5 Public houses

[edit] Surrey or Kent?

My understanding was this place was originally in Surrey and got included in 1894 in Croydon Rural District. However in 1899 it became an urban district in its own right and was transferred to Kent. [1] [2] Mrsteviec 16:51, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I've added to some details to the history section. What I'm not sure about is if Penge was a detatched part of Surrey "physically within Kent" or part of contiguous Surrey (I think this is more likely and the "detatched" refers only to the ancient parish not the county). Mrsteviec 17:16, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

One possibility is that it was historically in Kent (the ABC have it Surrey/Kent), but was included in the Croydon Rural District despite still being part of Kent. User:Lozleader's research has discovered that this was possible (see Local Government Act 1929). If it was in a detatched part of Surrey, ABC would note that. Morwen - Talk 19:29, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Finally found a source. The 'shire ditch' (sounds nice) cut right through the area, so it was part in each. MRSC • Talk 10:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Great work! --Vince 21:36, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MBW / LCC

If I'm following all this right, Penge is also unique in having been included in the area covered by the Metropolis Management Act of 1855, but then not included in London Metropolitan County 30-odd years later. Lewis Trondheim 14:48, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell it was in the County of London from 1889. The trouble seems to have started in 1894 with the creation of local government districts when it got lumped in with Croydon Rural District. Perhaps the Lewisham board didn't want to administer it anymore? The 1899 Act seems to be correcting the problem of having part of the County of London administered by the RDC of another county. MRSC • Talk 10:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I've just checked the contemporary Kelly's Directories at http://www.historicaldirectories.org/

Penge appears in the 1891 Surrey directory, where it is described as:

• PENGE, a detached hamlet of Battersea, is separated for ecclesiastical purposes and also has its own overseers and supports its own poor: it is situated on the borders of Kent, 7 miles south-east of london, and is included in the parliamentary borough of Camberwell, created by the "Redistribution of Seats Act, 1885" and under the "Local Government Act, 1888" is included in the County of London, and now forms a separate petty sessional division; it is also in the North Eastern division of the county of Surrey, South Eastern Metropolitan postal district, Croydon union and county court district, east division of Brixton hundred, rural deanery of Camberwell, archedaconry of Southwark and diocese of Rochester, and it is within the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court and Metropolitan Police.

It goes on to note that the Hamlet of Penge Vestry elect 6 members to the Board of works for the Lewisham District.

In the 1903 Kent directory:

• PENGE, once a detached hamlet of Battersea, now a separate Urban District and civil parish, has been, under the "London Government Act, 1899" by Order in Council, 1900, transferred to Kent; it is situated on the borders of the county, 7 miles south-east of london, and is included in Dulwich division of the parliamentary borough of Camberwell (Surrey), created by the "Redistribution of Seats Act, 1885" and is now also a separate petty sessional division, formed by Order in Council in pursuance of the "Local Government Act, 1894"; it is in the South Eastern Metropolitan postal district, Croydon union and county court district, rural deanery of Camberwell, archedaconry of Southwark and diocese of Rochester, and it is within the jurisdiction of the Central Criminal Court and Metropolitan Police.

Soooo.... It was in the County of London 1889 - 1900, then in Kent.

Was it ever actually in Croydon Rural District? It seems unlikely. I'm fairly sure that the LGA 1894 didn't extend to the County of London...

Lozleader 19:16, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I also notice that Lewisham Council [3] describe Lewisham District 1855 - 1900 as consisting of Lewisham and Penge. Looking at the contemporary sources, I think the placing of Penge in Croydon RD may be an error by Vision of Britain. Youngs seems to be wrong, as he doesn't list Penge in the County of London at all. He doesn't list it in Wandsworth District or Croydon RD either. He must have been confused too! Lozleader 19:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Had a look at The Times of 1900, and on 27th February there was an article entitled "The Hamlet of Penge". The local government committee of the LCC had received the report of the commissioners appointed under the London Government Act 1899. their recommendations were that the hamlet should be "separated from the County of London and be constituted an urban district in the county of Kent".Lozleader 20:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Danish money?

I don't think the line about Danish money has any place in this article. The Danish penge is not named after the place, it has a completely separate etymology and is pronounced differently. If it must appear on this page, it should be set off by itself, not sandwiched between two "cultural references" legitimately related to the subject of this article. Canonblack 14:09, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

In fact, I think it's just silly, so I've removed the line altogether. Otherwise in an article on, say, lamppost you could find someone remarking that "lamppost" is the Yiddish word for "tortoise". (I don't think it is, by the way!) --A bit iffy 14:32, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

LOL! Yeah, that would be a bit of a stretch! Thanks, for the laugh and the removal. Canonblack 13:49, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should have one of those notes at top of the page saying "for the Danish money, see xxxx" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.75.196.163 (talk) 02:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Notable residents

One of the histories of Penge includes a long list of famous residents (former PM Bonar Law; Philosopher, author and broadcaster Malcolm Muggeridge(Sp?) to name just two. If anyone is near the Maple Road library, they should be able to find this info.Bebofpenge 00:24, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Glad to see this has been done by someone.

I am sceptical about the claim that Bonar Law and Malcolm Muggeridge lived in Penge. Would it be possible to provide a reference for these? --Vince 17:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I remain sceptical to the point where I will actually remove these unless someone comes up with a reference --Vince 12:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Public houses

I am concerned about the length of the section on public houses. I do not think it necessary to list the name and address of every pub in Penge. As far as I am aware, Penge is not known particularly for pubs so I am wondering about the relevance of the section at all. If there are no objections I plan to do a major edit of this section --Vince 08:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed you suggested this, Vince, and I see you've now done it. I'm in agreement with you: the pubs section was getting bloated. --A bit iffy 14:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Since I added 'lending its name as a bus route terminus since 1914', the entry on the Crooked Billet seems to have become a treatise on the 227 bus and a history of Penge Green. As it is by far the oldest pub in the area (probably 16th century or even earlier) would it be possible to move the bulk of this entry to a new heading? Possibly 'Penge Green' would be a sensible heading as it would cover the area of land that fronted the Crooked Billet and evolved into the bus terminus. More information on Penge Green is in the Penge library (if my memory serves me correctly). I'm 10,500 miles away from Penge, so someone else would need to check this out. Bebofpenge 06:49, 21 November 2006 (UTC)