Talk:Peter Abelard

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Peter Abelard was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake. Date of review: June 2, 2006

Frankly, I don't see the point of pasting in stuff from the 1911 encyclopedia. You find it all over Wikipedia and some of it is really bad. In any case, it's all available on the web already so what's the point of reproducing it here?

BevRowe 18:26 Apr 3, 2003 (UTC)

Contents 1 Quasijocando??? 2 Needs Complete Rewrite 2.1 I will plan on doing so 3 Composer? 4 Eternal Sunshine 5 Neither fish nor fowl 5.1 Redirect statuses & history merges 6 GA Failing 7 Recent scholarship 8 I agree 9 Constant Mews 10 Habeladus/Bajolardus

[edit] Quasijocando???

I agree with the last message. What is the point of 1911 nonsense? There is a word "Quasijocando" in the text that I haven't a clue what it means. The only references (170, Google, duplicates) on the web are ... you guessed it ... Wikipedia and duplicates.

Methinks there is no such word: Quasijocando.

Another reason the copy should be revisited.

I assume that is Latin for "facetiously" or "kind of jokingly" (or just as it says, "quasi-jokingly"). Probably just the 1911 EB trying to sound erudite. I've never seen that word either, and I guess it doesn't matter now since it is no longer in the text, but I thought I would mention it anyway. Adam Bishop 05:47, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

_ _ There are EB-related hits re Abelard on "quasi jocando", a two-word phrase, so the other may be a scanning error.

_ _ "Quasi" is indeed a Latin word. As to "jocando", tho Pope used it in a Latin phrase, it doesn't look Latin to me -- but perhaps only bcz J was simply a version of I, until the 16th century.

_ _ On the other hand, "Quasi" passed into Italian unchanged, and "jocando" is (i think rarely) used as if it were Italian, in titling music or annotating musical scoring.

_ _ If you were British and in upper-class style in the generation that was still running everything in 1911, Italian opera was part of your life-blood, so "trying to sound erudite" is IMO off the mark.
--Jerzy•t 08:39, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

jocando and iocando are the same word in Latin, that's just an orthographical thing. I guess it would make more sense if it was two words, yeah. Adam Bishop 21:27, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Needs Complete Rewrite

This entire article should be re-written from the ground up by someone who knows Abelard's works. I would suggest that an aspiring philosophy student take up this task. Wikipedians all over would be in your debt. --BenjaminHare 22:39, 2005 May 10 (UTC)

[edit] I will plan on doing so

I am a student in philosophy, currently taking a course in ancient and medieval philosophy. I plan on doing a research paper on Abelard's nominalism. Come winter break I plan on writing up a section on Abelard's nominalism (or "irrealism"). --11/29/05 (10:54 MTN)

[edit] Composer?

Was he a composer, as List of uncategorized composers#A alleges? If his compositions are indeed insufficiently notable for the bio, surely he must be expunged from composer lists.
--Jerzy•t 08:51, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eternal Sunshine

Could there be a reference to Alexander Pope's poem, "Heloise and Abelard" in the page...

"How happy is the blameless Vestal's lot! / The world forgetting, by the world forgot. / Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! / Each pray'r accepted and each wish resign'd."

...which serves as the inspiration for the movie of the same name.

--Chinmay, March 22, 2006

[edit] Neither fish nor fowl

This page has been moved to Peter Abélard, which seems to be a neologistic back-formation from the English/German Peter Abelard. Wikipedia + mirrors are the only hit of this spelling in the first four pages of Google hits. I propose that this page be moved back to Pierre Abélard (the French name), or to the English version Peter Abelard (with a slight preference for the latter, as it has been established in English for some centuries). For a convoluted discussion of this, see User talk:JackyR#That bloke what had it off with Eloise. Otherwise, take it on its merits... JackyR 22:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Redirect statuses & history merges

• Peter Abélard (Currently the article; history goes back to 11:52, 7 July 2002)
• Peter Abelard (About to become article; has 2 revisions from 8 October 2001 under the redirects)
• PeterAbelard has 1 revision from 30 January 2001 under the redirects
• Peter Abailard entire hx is redirects
• Pierre Abelard entire hx is redirects
• Abelard entire hx is redirects
• Abelard, Peter entire hx is redirects
• Pierre Abailard entire hx is redirects
• Abélard entire hx is redirects
• Abailard entire hx is redirects
• Pierre Abélard No hx
• Abaelardus No hx

OK, here's what posterity will see (other than later changes:

1. The non-redirect revision from PeterAbelard and the two of them from Peter Abelard merged in with the 160-ish later revisions of Peter Abélard as the history of Peter Abelard.
2. All the redirect revisions of PeterAbelard as they are now (actually, having disappeared temporarily but been restored).
3. Peter Abélard will be a fresh move-tool-created rdr.

(If you like laws, sausages, or fully consolidated WP histories, don't watch them being made. In this case, if you don't look at the deletion logs, you won't see the deletions and undeletions required.)
--Jerzy•t 16:56, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
The merge-&-move involves 13 steps, but the killer one is the wait for the completion of the undeletion that completes the history merge. There hasn't been much activity on the article lately (7 edits in about 9 weeks, so i'm going to go ahead now rather than wait for the quiet hours. If you find the article gone, please be patient: it should be missing less than a half hour, and i think the delays have gotten shorter in recent months.
--Jerzy•t 20:32, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
_ _ In the event, the undeletion was complete in under four minutes, thanks no doubt to further work by our invaluable developers.
_ _ On reflection, i undeleted the 5 rdr-versions of Peter Abelard (see below in this section) before rather than after moving Peter Abélard there, with the result that the rdrs appear as old revisions (instead of being clobbered when i did the move). Their unnatural occurence interspersed with revisions of the article offers some confusion potential (e.g., they look like, but are not evidence of unrepaired cut-and-paste moves). But on the positive size, they do document the sometimes confusing name changes, which were not reflected in the history when the first 4 of the 5 moves were done. Note that they are all former revisions of Peter Abelard, and not (generally? ever?) of the article, but they should reasonably closely track the changes of the article's title, since each was done to bypass an rdr that recently had become part of a dbl rdr. Feedback welcome; remediation is practical if there's a consensus i blew it.
--Jerzy•t 21:47, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

• Peter Abelard rdrs:
  • 08:04, 14 November 2005 Jerzy (==> #REDIRECT Peter Abélard)
  • 09:51, 22 April 2004 Nixdorf m (corrected name)
  • 11:52, 7 July 2002 Tarquin
  • 16:51, 21 June 2002 The Epopt (link)
  • 15:51, 25 February 2002 Conversion script m (Automated conversion)

[edit] GA Failing

Fails WP:LEAD, has random references in the middle of the text, references need to be connected in the text (please see WP:CITE.) Highway ^{Rainbow Sneakers} 15:40, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent scholarship

I'm not particularly knowledgeable on Abelard myself, but I do know that there has been some recent scholarship that has made modern philosophers view him as a more significant philosopher than he had previously been considered. In particular, some of his works on logic were first published in the 20th century, and there is now ongoing work on examining them. It may be worth covering both those works and their new philosophical reception, which the article, based mainly on EB1911, currently doesn't mention at all. For an overview, see: John Marenbon, "The rediscovery of Peter Abelard's philosophy", Journal of the History of Philosophy 44(3), 2006 (abstract here). --Delirium 17:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I agree

As a Theology student currently doing research on the 1140 Sens Heresy trial, I have never come across this document cited under "Written Works" ""Time Jesum Non Riventum", translated by Betty Radice, c. 1970, this is the superbly accurate transcript of Abelard's document, the one that saw him condemned in 1140 at the Council of Sens for heresy. He was condemned on the basis of other well-known published works such as his "Ethica" and "Theologia" (and wrongly, in my opinion, but that's another issue). I propose to delete that reference unless someone can give a bit more detail about where it can be found. PJO'M 17:42, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please delete. -- Stbalbach 16:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Constant Mews

I have corrected the reference to Constant Mews. Whilst he is an academic at an Australian university, he is in fact British (his bio). On a less trivial point, I have supplied the requested citation for his work on the Lost Love Letters.PJO'M 18:48, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Habeladus/Bajolardus

In the article is the statement that "The name Abaelardus (also written Abailardus, Abaielardus, and in many other ways) is said to be a corruption of Habélardus, substituted by Abélard himself for a nickname ('Bajolardus') given him when a student." Can we have a citation for this please?

Also, if "Bajolardus" was his nickname, what does it even mean? It's not French and seems a rather odd name. —Lowellian (reply) 02:05, 12 January 2007 (UTC)