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	To-do list for Plurality voting system:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Move what's in advantages section to issues subsections Single Transferable Vote Sections that are really long and choppy are tagged stubs and need rewrites Make it more clear in definition that plurality voting is a single winner election method (and then contrast with bloc voting) the forming of a majority coalition government for Multy Party Systems. Add a Voting system criteria section, as found in many other voting system articles

Talk Archive 1

Contents 1 Use of 'FPTP' and terminology 2 Poland fights for FPTP 3 Ballot or ballot paper 4 Copyediting 5 Maximizing the weight of a single vote 6 Plurality voting system 7 the funnier pseudo-democratic aspects of FPTP systems 8 US FPTP 9 More Strengths 10 "Simple example" 11 Single-winner voting systems 12 Move or delete "Each representative must be a winner" (advantages) section to another article? 13 jumble 13.1 Same as instant-runoff voting?

[edit] Use of 'FPTP' and terminology

This article uses the term FPTP a lot. This is incorrect, as FPTP is a colloquialism, even if everyone understand what it means. The correct term should be a 'majoritarian system', or a 'plurality-based system', as the title itself suggests.

• I suggest that incidences of 'FPTP' are kept to the bare minimum, and that 'plural', 'plurality' or 'majoritarian' are used instead. As a politics student, I would be penalised for referring to FPTP. (RM21 04:37, 28 June 2006 (UTC))

"majoritarian system" is much broader than FPTP, as is "plurality-based system". Most systems (other than Borda and a few others) are majoritarian, including FPTP. Plurality-based systems aren't that common beyond this one, but they exist nonetheless. Just calling this article Plurality works---it isn't the best name for the system, but at least it's understood. CRGreathouse 06:15, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Poland fights for FPTP

You may be interested that Poland is trying to import FTPT. If you think that FPTP is "dishonest", then you can check what far more importand problems Poles have with PR lists here, on Polish FPTP civic movement site. For example following, which in Britain never occur:

• 4 years of minority governments during last 8 years
• 11 Prime Ministers during 15 years
• 2, 3, and even 4 party coalitions
• no reforms, because each coalition party has different view on everything, they throw off responsibility for fails on each other
• corruption (party bosses are arranging party lists with their stupid soldiers as they want, no one knows those people, how they are selected, "politician" is synonym for "thief", there is surely no constituency link with an MP, "party" is synonym for "mafia", etc.)
• etc.

--"PR lists", open or closed lists??

Here is videoclip promoting JOW in Poland: [1]. "FPTP" is in polish called "JOW". I hope you will stay with FPTP. In my opinion FPTP is source of british strength. When you defeated Nazis Germans wanted FPTP as they system. Adenauer (German statesman) was insisting on it very hard. But allies did'nt want strong Germany, so they enforced PR lists. The same was in Itally and Japan (they was fighting for FPTP recently, they now have 75% and 66% of FPTP). In France de Gaulle incorporated almost pure british FPTP. You sure dont want PR lists, its system for young - and weak democracies like whole "new Europa" or for example Spain.

Although myself a fan of SMP (it's SMP, not SMDP) it has its shortcomings. In 1979 Margaret Thatcher's government won the UK election, but didn't win a single seat in Wales or Scotland. In this sense her government's rule of them was seen by many as illegitimate and even colonial.

not even Poland is going FPTP (EU-hello, Poland!!)

Young, weak and unstable scandinavia uses different variations of PR lists, both open and unluckily also closed ones.

[edit] Ballot or ballot paper

I was surprised to see ballot paper copy-edited to ballot paper. Although I know that the dictionary definition of both coincides, in the UK, I've only ever heard "ballot paper" used in popular speech. Is this a UK thing? --Notinasnaid 07:39, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

I assume you meant "ballot paper" becoming "ballot." It must be a UK thing, because as an American, I've never even heard or read the phrase "ballot paper" before in my life (unless someone is talking about the actual physical paper that a ballot is printed on). --Matt Yeager 07:28, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Copyediting

Alright, in response to the recent "edit conflict"... I don't really care about sub-heads one way or the other. If they're that important to you, keep them in. I just didn't see how they were necesary (the article seemed to flow just fine w/o them, but whatever.) Next time someone makes a lot of positive changes to an article, along with one big negative one, please refrain from a sheer revert of the page and just change it back manually (as you did this most recent time). Thank you. --Matt Yeager 07:28, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Actually, I did not consider that there were any positive changes in that edit. Of course, people tend to be more attached to their own words than others, so I invited you to open a discussion. Instead, you reinstated your edits. As I wrote in the history, Copyediting is good, but I don't think this improved the accessibility of the example, added because people did not understand. Especially removing sub-heads. Revert. Can we discuss on talk page.. I think it would have been better to have that discussion, rather than for my reversion to be immediately undone. That's how revert wars start.

This example was specifically created because of comments in the discussion that people didn't understand the previous example. I think it's a terrible thing if people can't understand their own democratic processes, so I took pains to make this very accessible. Short sentences. Subheadings to emphasise that two processes take place in any such election. I wrote Notice that there were a total of 11 + 16 + 13 = 40 votes because I think people some people genuinely are confused by introducing new numbers, rather than immediately deducing that the 40 is the sum of the numbers mentioned in the last sentence, and so on. Some changes I saw as neutral, and hence I reverted it.

Anyway, I will not get into a revert war, but I do not consider this to be any improvement. Here is the history, so anyone else interested can judge for themselves. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Plurality_electoral_system&diff=24961307&oldid=24952319. I have observed, however, that this page isn't so much governed by consensus as by people just doing stuff, like the name change it had a while back. --Notinasnaid 16:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Hmm, I apparantly have a higher opinion of the intelligence of Wikipedians than you do. For instance, I assumed that when the numbers 11, 16, and 13 are listed, followed by "Notice that there were a total of 40 votes cast", that our readers are smart enough to see "total" and realize that there was some addition going on.

Let's go on, because I'm willing to talk this out. Tell me how this sounds.

"There are three candidates, Amy, Brian and Chloe. Each class member gets a ballot paper, with these three names on it. The class member must put an "X" against one of the names.

"After the election finishes, the papers are sorted into three piles. One pile contains all the papers where there is an "X" against Amy (that is, votes for Amy). The other two piles contain votes for Brian and for Chloe.

"The largest pile decides the winner. For instance, if Amy's pile has 11 votes, Brian's pile has 16 votes, and Chloe's pile has 13 votes, then the winner is Brian."

I mean, is it just me, or is that unbelievably wordy? Saying that they "put an 'X' against" a name? I actually can't fathom the use of this wording. It seems horrifically un-intuitive (which you--or the author, whoever--acknowledged when you/whoever later said "papers where there is an 'X' against Amy (that is, votes for Amy)". But if you're going to use an original, unintuitive phrase followed by an simple, easy equivalent anyway, why not just use the equivalent in the first place?).

It goes on. In the third paragraph of the above quotation, "For instance" is redundant and confusing (because you're not introducing a new example, you're just continuing in the same one).

Let's continue, shall we?

"Notice that there were a total of 11 + 16 + 13 = 40 votes, and the winner had only 16 of them; only 40%. But that is only the result for this one class."

What in the world is the purpose of that second sentence? This is instantly confusing, and there is no possible use. Since, in our little hypothetical class election, we've as of yet only introduced one class, it's very confusing (or at the least, redundant) to say "but that's only the result for this one class".

I'm not going to bother defending my removal of the subheads (or any other undefended edits); I've made my case that there were positive edits in there and it should not have been blindly reverted. (This is probably going overboard, and I apologize for any offense... please remember that you did ask for it when you said that there weren't any positive changes in my edit.) --Matt Yeager 04:20, 10 October 2005 (UTC).

[edit] Maximizing the weight of a single vote

Does anyone have a link to that (famous) pro-FPTP article used in the US 1970s hearings on Voting Rights?? That is, it made the fairly simple (math) argument that "just a few votes" can (unproportionally) change the outcome of a FPTP, two-party, single-seat, winner-takes-all election.

I believe you're thinking of the argument in favor of the electoral college. --Scott Ritchie 04:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

very probably not, this was a very "ancient" academic paper already in the 1970s. Basically noticing that in a two-party system only some few votes can have a maximum of unproportional weight on the final outcome.(including the formation of a government,etc, but that was not really analysed for anything but a 2-party system where the largest number of votes "takes-it-all")

IIRC, I once read a paper originally published in the 70s in favor of the electoral college over a nationwide popular vote because it "maximized the chance that an individual's vote would change the outcome." Does that sound like what you're intimating? Scott Ritchie 03:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Plurality voting system

Thanks to whoever moved the page here! I was wondering why we needed to call this an "electoral system" and not a voting system. I think we should avoid saying "electoral system" on Wikipedia because it's been used to mean too many different things. rspeer 06:28, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

That would be me. Do you think this would be a good article to target next for cleanup? --Scott Ritchie 08:02, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, though it seems like a daunting task. --rspeer 16:23, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

How about moving it back to its original name, First past the post.... any views on this? The move seems to have been done last time without consensus. Or I missed one. Notinasnaid 23:05, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Very much opposed to that, since the term is both slang and, worse, restricted to British English. Scott Ritchie 11:24, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm American, but I've really only ever heard it referred to as FPTP. "Plurality" is a broad class of methods to me, not just this particular method. CRGreathouse 06:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Use may be more widespread in the UK, where it is the only common term, used by those who both support and oppose it. It is not slang, but standard English, appearing in dictionaries. Even if it is a largely UK term, changing to a US term might be interpreted as a violation of the Wikipedia principle of the first national variation of English chosen defines the variation used for the article in future. Notinasnaid 17:39, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

On second thought, however, perhaps first past the post voting system might have an advantage, as first past the post is unambiguous (whereas there are several "plurality" methods, such as bloc voting (though I have heard it described as "first past the post bloc voting" too) Scott Ritchie 23:32, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

"First past the post" may be its common name, but the system actually is a "plurality voting system". Besides, the name "First Past The Post" is a really, really crummy name for this system. "Farthest from the start" is more like it. As the name doesn't even make sense, I'd suggest keeping the article here. Matt Yeager 04:41, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

A couple of other reasons to keep it here:

• Plurality is referenced in a lot of other articles, and "plurality" is easier to say than "first past the post".
• If we were titling every system by its common name, then IRV and STV would both have to be described at preferential voting. There's nothing wrong with more formal names that are more precise.

rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 06:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the funnier pseudo-democratic aspects of FPTP systems

gerrymandering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Illinois_District_4_2004.png

[edit] US FPTP

I'm not sure it is correct to say that FPP is the system in use in the US. In congressional elctions for both houses of congress it is not the case that the person with a plurality or relative majority wins and all others loose. If nobody makes the clear majority (50% +1 vote), in a congressional race with three or four candidates for example, then a runoff election is held between the 1st and second place candidates (or however many are tied for those two positions) until somebody gets the clear majority. The electoral college in presidential elections does allow for a president to be elected with the minority of the popular vote, however s/he has still gotten the clear majority of the electoral vote. If nobody gets that, as has happened at least once, then the house of Representatives elects the president. Again, it is not a plurality system. I have removed the statement in the opening that says it is.

This isn't true - only the state of Louisiana holds runoff elections for cognressional seats. To be more precise, the US uses first past the post alongside primaries, however it's still FPTP. As for Presidential elections, the electoral college is a unique voting system in and of itself, however each slate of electors per state (except for two states) is elected using FPTP. Scott Ritchie 01:10, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The U.S. does not use first past the post for congressional elections; the states, with the exclusion of Louisiana, do. According to the wording, the United States should not be on this list as the country itself does not. It is the decision of the states to do this and most do, although if they wanted to pass a state amendment that gave it to the person closest to 4.3% of the vote, then they could. It is the state's decision. The U.S. should be removed from the list of countries that use FPTP for the lower/only house. Bsd987 04:47, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

You raise a fine technical point: by your reasoning, the only national election in the United States has a total electorate of 538 persons. Senators, Representatives and Electors for President and Vice President are chosen by 50 (51 in the case of Electors) distinct elections, run under an equal number of distinct sets of rules. While there are national rules establishing voting rights (the Voting Rights Act of 1965, the 14th, 15th, 19th, 24th and 27th Amendments, etc.) the means of casting, counting and recording votes is left entirely up to the states (Bush v. Gore notwithstanding). There is, however, a fair practical uniformity as to rules and methods, and insisting on the technicality is likely to render the article less informative, not more. The point can be raised in a footnote. Robert A.West (Talk) 03:44, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Strengths

-Democracy is inherently FPP almost all of the time, regardless of the system. If 55% want something, the other 45% get 0%, the 55% get 100%, as is the case with majority rule. As such, in parliamentary system, getting a majority of the seats puts you "first past the post", and any party not cooperating in Government has no real power. (In fact, many things are FPP. Games, for instance, are often "Win" or "Lose", you don't get a 40% win for getting 40% of the score). So a party could win 10% of the seats for decades and never operate in Government, despite the fact it should proportionally run 10% of them.

Thus, until we have a system of democracy where a number of seats truly equals power, points about "equal representation" are deceiving. In proportional representation, a party could halve its seats but now hold the balance of power and have considerably more say in policy, which is hardly proportional. Therefore, a FPP system may represent the population better, a tyranny of the plurality at least, rather than the minority (who happens to hold the balance of power).

- Coalitions may not represent a majority, despite holding a majority of the seats. Just like FPP can have a plurality elect a majority of the seats, proportional representation systems may elect Governments that do ommand a majority of the vote, but that does not mean the coalition Government may be favoured by that many.

To illustrate this point, an election on ingredients of a dessert. 36% of people voted for ice cream. 25% voted for chocolates. 20% voted for strawberries. 12% voted for honey. 7% of people voted for carrots. A coaltion of ice cream, honey and carrots was formed, and the dessert was a combination of all. The vast majority disliked this strange concoction, despite the fact that 55% had voted for one of the ingredients.

-Nichlemn 05:40, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

What is your purpose in posting this? Wikipedia is not a soapbox. The talk page should be for discussions of the content of the article, not debates about its topic. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 07:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

In this case, the article contains a list of strengths and weaknesses of FPP. I was adding more possibilities. - Nichlemn 08:24, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I would guess that under such a scenario, ice cream would be much more likely to form a coalition with chocolate and strawberries. You could also have an instant runoff election, in which the second choices of voters would be tallied until one food reached 50%. -- Mwalcoff 23:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Simple example"

Reviewing the history of this article, I observe that in December someone deleted the "simple example" without discussion and under the general title "deleted junk"; despite considerable discussion already having happened on this section in this talk page. In fact they just leftg a subtitle "more complex example", which seems slapdash. Later it was only partially reinstated. I see this as removing what was making the article accessible and leaving it less accessible, so I am going to reinstate the entire example. Please let's discuss it further here if required. Notinasnaid 14:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Single-winner voting systems

I just made Single-winner voting systems, mostly by copying from here. I think that the material I copied (advantages and disadvantages) should be removed from here (except for wasted votes, which needs minor editing on both sides to separate the issues) and linked (twice, once for advantages and once for disadvantages). Please discuss here. Since there's nothing that links there yet, I humbly request that you don't nominate that page for deletion until September, to allow the discussion here to mature a bit. --Homunq 21:36, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move or delete "Each representative must be a winner" (advantages) section to another article?

The section "Each representative must be a winner" does not appear to be directly relevant to the topic of "plurality voting system". Instead it identifies supposed advantages of certain systems of parliamentary representation (namely, those based around the UK model). It is quite common to confuse systems of voting (e.g. FPTP vs IRV) and methods of representation (e.g. US Senate vs Congress, UK Prime Minister vs US President). It is entirely possible to keep all the "advantages" of the Canadian system described in the example here whilst still adoping a different voting method. Thus it seems that this section is not relevant to the topic at hand and should be deleted or moved to another article. I would go ahead and do this but I wanted to make sure other people agree / do not violently disagree first.

< http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Plurality_voting_system&diff=77756318&oldid=71465672 >.

Please do sign that.

hopiakuta 07:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I provisionally disagree. The advantages don't have to be unique to first past the post, but only (perceived and reported) advantages over some widely reported alternative. Perhaps mentioning prime minister confuses matters, since indeed the leader of government is not always drawn from those elected (indeed, constitutionally in England it doesn't have to be the case, I think). The advantages and disadvantages are not so very many that they don't fit in the article, especially as they are the core of almost all debate; people should be informed of these points. However, where there is a wealth of material on a subject it is sometimes worth generating an article and leaving a linked summary in the main article: but a living, working summary, not just a link. I would strongly oppose removing the mention completely, that could easily be interpreted as whittling away at the advantages/disadvantages list, and is likely to mean a future editor simply fills the gap. Notinasnaid 08:02, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] jumble

plurality_voting_system

plurality

simple_majority

absolute_majority

supermajority

"supermajoritarian", from the "absolute_majority" article.

It is my impression that this labyrinth has become a complex jumble. Is there some way that this could be otherwise improved?

hopiakuta 07:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Same as instant-runoff voting?

"In some countries such as France a similar system is used, but there are two rounds: the "two-round" or "two-ballot" plurality system. The two highest-voted candidates of the first round compete in a two-candidate second round."

Isn't that exactly what the Instant-runoff voting article talks about? User:2 of 8

Not exactly, but ideally the same effect. These elections are called two round systems. However IRV uses ranked preference ballots so voters only vote once and the second round (or more) are counted from the same ballots - by eliminating choices and counting a vote for the highest candidate on a ballot who is not eliminated. Tom Ruen 23:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)