Talk:Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union
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[edit] Old talk
I think there should be a distinction between those who were killed. and those who were deported. BTW, on many occasions those deportations actually saved the lives of their victims, especially when they were Jewish, that otherwise could have been killed by the Nazi who invaded these areas on 1941.
--- I don't know whether there is any reliable data on how ratio dead/survivors. And deported usually were not _saved_. Those who leave Kresy for seeking job etc were. --sozpen
[edit] A map is essential
This entry is all but unintelligible to the average non-Polish reader without a map. Remember, George W. Bush couldn't find Slovenia on the globe... --Wetman 05:57, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Perhaps you're right, I'll try to prepare something based on my Image:Poland 1939.png map, as soon as I finish my work on the Image:Rzeczpospolita.png project. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 06:37, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)
[edit] article's name
Would not the name Territories of the Second Polish Republic annexed by the Soviet Union be less amibiguous? The current name is more ambiguous as it may read either that these were territories of Poland (correct) or that these were the territories mostly populated by Poles (incorrect). --Irpen 16:46, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- I am not sure if there is much confusion, this should be better explained in the article unless there is a need for disabig, I think.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:48, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
- Besides, Poland is and was the name of the state. "Second", "Third", "Fourth" and "Umpteenth Republic" are just short-hand names invented and used by journalists and, at times, historians. However, they have no official status and I'd discouraged their usage in article titles. //Halibutt 19:28, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
How about "Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union". Also complemented by "Territories annexed by Poland" for what happened following the WW1? --Irpen 19:32, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
Which territories do you mean? They needed to be "of Poland" in the "beforemath" of the WW1. --Irpen 20:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Credibility of census figures
Among the population of Eastern territories were circa 38% Poles, 37 % Ukrainians, 14,5 % Belarussians, 8,4 % Jewish, 0,9 % Russians and 0,6 % Germans"
If this is based on the census of the 1930s based on "mother tongue", then it is not reliable. This census listed 6 million listed as Ukrainian, Belorussian, "Ruthenian", and "Local". Yet, it also listed 7 million as having belonged to Orthodox and Uniate religions which were exclusively composed of the East Slavic groups. The Polish regime tried intentionally to mask the presence of minorities as Joseph Rothschild's volume on East-Central Europe demonstrates. The Warsaw regime claimed there were 800,000 Germans in the census while the German government put the number of Germans at 1.5 million. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.127.36.66 (talk) 20:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC).
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- The anonymous contributor is correct. The Polish census data of 1931 breaking out the population by language has been used to puff up the ethnic Polish population in the territories annexed by the USSR. The data listing religion is a better indicator of ethnic identity. The Roman Catholic population is more or less the true ethnic Polish population. The census of 1931 listed 5.5% of the population( 600,000) in the annexed territories as being Polish (by mother tongue) and Eastern Rite Catholic or Russian Orthodox. This is not credible and in fact misleading. The Eastern Rite Catholics or Russian Orthodox should not be considered ethnic Polish, they are “Polish citizens” but not “Poles”. The article lists the language as well as religion in the total population so that readers can judge for themselves.
The Polish government in 1947 claimed 6,028,000 war dead including the 600,000 “Polish” in the annexed territories who were Eastern Rite Catholics or Russian Orthodox . They were not repatriated and presumed dead.
As for the ethnic Germans the Polish census data lists only 800,000 yet 1.4 million signed the Volksliste during the war and fought in Hitler’s Army.--Woogie10w 22:16, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- The anonymous contributor is correct. The Polish census data of 1931 breaking out the population by language has been used to puff up the ethnic Polish population in the territories annexed by the USSR. The data listing religion is a better indicator of ethnic identity. The Roman Catholic population is more or less the true ethnic Polish population. The census of 1931 listed 5.5% of the population( 600,000) in the annexed territories as being Polish (by mother tongue) and Eastern Rite Catholic or Russian Orthodox. This is not credible and in fact misleading. The Eastern Rite Catholics or Russian Orthodox should not be considered ethnic Polish, they are “Polish citizens” but not “Poles”. The article lists the language as well as religion in the total population so that readers can judge for themselves.
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- Wrong, my friends. No division was as simple as you put it. Neither the language criterion, nor the criterion of religion can be used to translate the 1930s nationalities into modern concepts. Apart from the fact that there was a sizeable number of people feeling Polish yet being Uniate or Jewish (my ancestors among them), there were also Polish-speaking Ukrainians (Sheptytskyi, for instance) and Lithuanians. Finally, it was not until the advent of Hitler that the Jewish religion became synonymous to being Jewish. Besides, take note that a huge number of people (notably from Silesia and Pomerania, but also from the Tatras and other parts of Poland) were actually forced to sign the Volksliste. In other words, nothing is as simple as it seems now. //Halibutt 22:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree, religion not the ability to speak Polish determined a persons ethnic identity in prewar Poland. The internal ID document that adults carried listed their religion. The Z for Jews was the way the anti-semites who ran Poland blaclkisted Jews. --Woogie10w 01:26, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- I was told by my father who was a Pennsylvania coal miner that folks from the eastern region of eastern Poland spoke a dialect of Polish that was differant than "regular" Polish. He said the immigrants from this region mixed standard Polish with their local dialect and that Lithuanians tended to mix Polish and their langauge. The "Rusyns" as he called them spoke a language similar to Slovak. The eastern Polish spoke their own local dialect except educated people ie. literate, who could also speak standard Polish. Everybody got along well and the ethnic conflict was with the Welsh. This was Nanticoke Pa. circa 1922. In 1942 things became more intense when my dads family split into two camps; my pop was on the Polish side and his sister in the pro German camp.--Woogie10w 02:55, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- Wrong, my friends. No division was as simple as you put it. Neither the language criterion, nor the criterion of religion can be used to translate the 1930s nationalities into modern concepts. Apart from the fact that there was a sizeable number of people feeling Polish yet being Uniate or Jewish (my ancestors among them), there were also Polish-speaking Ukrainians (Sheptytskyi, for instance) and Lithuanians. Finally, it was not until the advent of Hitler that the Jewish religion became synonymous to being Jewish. Besides, take note that a huge number of people (notably from Silesia and Pomerania, but also from the Tatras and other parts of Poland) were actually forced to sign the Volksliste. In other words, nothing is as simple as it seems now. //Halibutt 22:22, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
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- WoogieWoogie, as for Volksliste: number of people signed it because they were forced or listed without their consent (i.e. a lot of Poles in Danzig). Amongst my family I had one uncle which signed Volksliste despite being Polish, while other fought in AK - the family decided that to ensure family survival someone has to sign. As for religion being sole determinant of nationality, that's wrong. I had a lot of people in my family which were orthodox.
- Finally, I will leave your "anti-semites who ran Poland blaclkisted Jews" without comment, since such comment is quite typical for polonophobes and from experiences discussion with them are pointless Szopen 09:00, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- No need to make excuses for the Polish traitors who supported Hitler. Those people made the mistake of supporting the losing side and paid the price for their stupidity--Woogie10w 17:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
- WoogieWoogie, so Jews which served in Jewish Police or Judenrat are Jewish traitors who supported Hitler and mae a mistake of supporting the losing side? As I said, eople HAD NO CHOICE. E.g in Gdansk all Poles, whatever they felt or wanted, were just enlisted in VOlkslist. Szopen 08:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
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- True, when the Nazis knocked on the door in 1940 asking German speakers to sign the Volksliste they were making "an offer you can't refuse", but some people did refuse and paid the price for their loyalty to Poland--Woogie10w 10:39, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
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- WoogieWoogie, so Jews which served in Jewish Police or Judenrat are Jewish traitors who supported Hitler and mae a mistake of supporting the losing side? As I said, eople HAD NO CHOICE. E.g in Gdansk all Poles, whatever they felt or wanted, were just enlisted in VOlkslist. Szopen 08:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- No need to make excuses for the Polish traitors who supported Hitler. Those people made the mistake of supporting the losing side and paid the price for their stupidity--Woogie10w 17:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
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- In the USA in 1939 people did not have identity documents that listed their religion like Polish citizens.--Woogie10w 12:41, 12 January 2007 (UTC)