Talk:Pontic Greeks
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Greece; If you would like to join us, please visit the project page; if you have any questions, please consult the FAQ. | ||||||
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. | ||||||
|
|||||||
"Pontic Greeks" is definitely more common in English. "Pontian" isn't even common in Greek, is it? I realize that in Modern Greek the word ποντικός is "mouse" from the ancient ποντικός μυς, so the word for "Pontic" was adjusted to Ποντιακός. But if we tried to render that in English, we would get Pontiac, the name of an Indian chief and a city and make of car both named in his honor. Since this is the English Wikipedia, it's best to stick with "Pontic," despite how strange that might sound in Greek hears. --Joe 00:32, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
- In French, it's also "Pontiques", and in Greek just πόντιοι. In Spanish Griegos pónticos --Pylambert (I wrote most of the French article Pontiques) 00:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)
Of course it should be merged; we cannot have differences in spelling or variations of qualitatives, duplicating articles.Politis 15:56, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
Pontian describes a person who originates from Pontos. Just as a Russian of Russia, an Italian from Italy, and an American from America. Pontic is used to define a region such as The Pontic Alps, and also is used on a historical perspective. Modern day Pontians still consider themselves descendants of Pontos and are extremely proud of their ethnicity so therefore using a regional or historic term such as Pontic would not be right. --Amaseia 13:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
"Pontic Greeks" is much more common in English than "Pontian Greeks" -- checked in google.com (general Web usage 12:1) and also in scholar.google.com (scholarly articles 3:1). I do not understand why Pontian would be better or worse than Pontic, and in any case, Wikipedia reports actual usage. --Macrakis 02:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
- Ok, I'll go ahead and merge than. Thanks. —Khoikhoi 02:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
There is a problem with the basic structure and definition in this article. I have spoken to several Greek collegues and done a bit of study on this.
Pontic can and does mean quite a few different things. the current article conflates these different things and creates a serious confusion without any explaination.
There are at least three distinct meanings:
1)The term Pontic can and has refered to a very specific area. Specifically the area of Trabzon, and really is often used to mean trabzon and now its dispora only. For example see the lists in the article itself of links of "pontic associations" they all refer just to this area alone. Certainly when we speak of the "pontic Greek" dialect we exclude the other areas of the black sea and only mean this one area.
2) the term Pontic can also mean all the cities on the Black sea. In that sense it is a purely geographic designation. The people did engage in vigorus commerce with each other but also the rest of the Greek places and indeed all the Ottoman places by sea. Greeks who had big majority or minority populiatons on notable port cities and towns, many extant and continious from ancient times, on the rest of the coast of Turkey, all the coasts of Bulgaria, Romania, Ukaraine, Crimia and all over are also called Pontic in the sense that they are on the "pontos" (the black sea). But a Greeks in Varna, Constanza etc hade more intercourse with compatriotes in Istanbul and their dialect, traditions were "standard" Greek. They were no closer culturally and lingusitcally amd probably more distant to the trapezon Greeks than they were Greeks in Alexandria or Izmir.
3) the other meaning of Pontic is very broad and means everyone from the population exchange this includes Greeks from the south coast of Turkey, the Aegean coast, inland etc. Here is where the "ethnci slure"note
for certain the opening paragraph, which I must change is wrong saying this: "The Pontic Greeks, Pontians, or Black Sea Greeks (Greek Πόντιοι, Ποντιακοί) are Greeks from the shores of the Black Sea, the Pontus. They traditionally speak Pontic Greek."
This must be changed to note the term has a number of uses, and if Pontic Greek dialect is mentioned we should not imply that this is what most of the Greeks on theBlack sea spoke. it is not the case.10:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] clarity needed
Multiple usage of the term is somewhat addressed in opening graph but following graphs continue to conflate confusingly the Trabzond culture with the more general application or misapplication of "Pontic/Pontoi".
Pontic culture and especially language is/was very specific. When we list towns on Black Sea Thrace now in Bulgaria or the Danube (now in Romania) as Pontic, we need to be careful and need to parse for the reader. A Greek from the western and northern Black Sea would have more in common cultural and in dialect with a Greek of Constantinople/Istanbul, Smyrna/Izmir and indeed Alexandria Egypt and Athens than they would with the Trabzond Greeks. The reader should not think a Greeks from most of the cities listed (and most are outside of the Trabzon Pontic area) would speak "Pontic Greek", engage in Pontic Dance, etc.
The problem arises from contemporary Greek usage where "Pontoi" can now refer to anyone from the Black Sea area, and in some usages, any of the refugee populations from Turkey (90% of whom were not Pontic in the cultural sense) as well as refugees from Bulgaria, Romania or even European Eastern Thrace.71.252.33.135 12:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
