Talk:Repressed memory

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Contents 1 Redirection 2 Just a Note 3 Seperate Article 4 Repression DOES NOT equal "repressed memories" 5 Seperate Article for Recovered Memory Therapy 6 Neutrality of this article 7 Incidence of sexual abuse 8 Portrayals in popular entertainment 8.1 Pop culture 9 We should merge this article with False Memory 10 Recovered memory therapy 11 "Theories" 12 Body Memory 13 What about Freud? 14 Umm... 15 Small edits needed 16 Feminism 17 criticism (-> "false memories") should be mentioned in the introduction 18 Religious implications 19 repression/suppression

[edit] Redirection

Why does Traumatic amnesia redirect here? Traumatic amnesia is amnesia caused by physical trauma, meaning injury. And unlike repressed memories its existance is not debated. AbCarter 14:18 CET, 9 september 2006

[edit] Just a Note

People who wish to assume that repressed memories don't happen still need to educate themselves on both sides of the debate, There are numerous college professors and praticing psychologists- mind you VERY intelligent people who really have nothing to gain by supporting or not supporting repressed memories, who believe delayed recall exsists. I think it's dangerous for anyone to assume that it doesn't, it's like saying all illnesses is fake because several people call into work sick when they aren't. I know- someone is going to say that's a bad example, but I've been working for the last 16 hours and haven't slept for 24 hours, so be understanding.

Until our neurosciences develop further and better studies can be conducted we have no conclusive evidence that repression doesn't exsist and that all cases are pseudomemories or people lying. If it does exist, and say a 16 year old girl all of a sudden remembered being molested by her father when she was an 8 year old child would you want her to read that she is lying or making it up? (oh- and this exact situation has happened, so don't argue the validity of it. I am not arguing the validity of false memories, i believe they happen. I am also not saying I have evidence that this girls memory isn't a psuedomemory, I just know she had no exposure to The Courage to Heal or any therapy. Unless they there were subliminal messages in her N'Sync Music I have no clue how they were "implanted"...)

CelticLabyrinth

Both sides or the debate are represented here. People who believe repressed memories don't happen would probably resent your talk that they 'assume' this is the case, as if they were idiots. Your Weak Analogy, Appeal to Consequences and Argument from ignorance was not compelling. MaxMangel 01:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

a.) Just because there's the psychological established fact that repression does exist, it's no evidence that repressed memories do exist. Repression is based upon personal wishes and desires that are getting repressed as demanded by social taboo, as those are much more taboo than any potential events. b.) Your "N'Sync music" analogy is not common in the scientific literature, what is common is years of persuasion, coercion, hypnosis, and maltreatment under the name of a "therapy". --TlatoSMD 00:25, 1 Jul 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Seperate Article

Should there be a seperate article about the Repressed Memory Debate? This article does a poor job of defining the theory of repressed memories because it talks about the debate surrounding it so much as to be annoying.

CelticLabyrinth

The article in its current form is not excessively long, so seperating out the debate isn't necessary. I find the debate informative, rather than annoying. MaxMangel 00:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Repression DOES NOT equal "repressed memories"

I think this article is starting to suffer of the common misconception of equalling the psychologically acknowledged fact of repression on the one hand and the theory of "repressed memories" debunked during several instances in history already on the other. Just because mental repression exists, it's no evidence that "repressed memories" do exist. Therefore, I'm specifying further a few captions according to this. Furthermore, using the term "denying" is far from being NPOV, especially since we're dealing with what is a controversial issue at best, or rather a largely abandoned theory. --TlatoSMD 10:24, 24 June 2006 (CEST)

Okay, now I've also sharply distinguished the established psychological concept of repression from the theory of repressed memories on a more accurate terminological level. --TlatoSMD 10:58, 24 June 2006 (CEST)

I changed traumatic amnesia to dissociative amnesia. Traumatic amnesia is shorter term and often occurs along with brain injury, dissociative amnesia is longer term and typically does not involve brain injury

There's quite a LOT of evidence that repressed memories do exist (including personal first-hand experiences). Ding 04:48, 7 Mar 2004 (UTC)

There's also quite a lot of evidence that at the very least they are not reliable, including several studies that show it is possible to make someone "recover" nearly any "repressed memory" you choose to concoct by seeding them with the proper suggestive cues (see also false memories, which is currently painfully short). There's very little evidence of which I am aware correlating recovered repressed memories with provably real events. --Delirium 10:55, Mar 7, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Seperate Article for Recovered Memory Therapy

I believe that although this is related to repressed memories it seems to deserve an article in and of itself, especially considering the great pain it has caused many individuals. -Celtic Labyrinth

It does have its own article. But the information here seems relevant to be included in the discussion of the existence of repressed memory. MaxMangel 02:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I agree it is relevant, Recovered Memory Therapy has largely been put aside by the treating community, even by those who believe in repressed memories. Current therapies for Dissociative Identity Disorder and people who have "memories" of satantic ritual abuse or have memories that are probably confabulated or possibly false involves more of a psychosocial model like incorporative therapy or dialectical behavior therapy. People who have, what I would call, more valid delayed recall often undergo EMDR, cognitive therapies, or exposure therapies- the same therapies used for people with continuious recall. For the most part the only people really practicing RMT are people who believe there's an underground society of satanists killing children left and right or people who believe in alien abductions. Clearly, this is not practiced by the mainstream treating community! -Celtic Labyrinth

Perhaps the best thing to do then would be for you to write a paragraph or two on exactly what you mention here - how the therapist community (the ones who believe in repressed memory) have altered/evolved their practices so as to not fall into the traps of the past. MaxMangel 12:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality of this article

Wikipedia is suppose to speak from a neutral point of view. There is evidence of repression or traumatic amnesia, and this article does not speak of it. There is also limited sources cited to support this view that are not biased, and no academic articles cited

Please elaborate and provide this evidence, remembering to cite your sources, or your tag will just be removed again. MaxMangel 03:30, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

http://www.sidran.org/refs/ref2.html This site refers to 13 different studies or case profiles of various populations that presented with amnesia. Also, this website http://www.smith-lawfirm.com/Murphy_Memory_Article.html#7. provides additional resources pointing towards imperical evidence traumatic amnesia exsists. In fact, Amnesia is part of the DSM, widely considered one of the most researched and agreed upon sources. Please edit to include differing opinions, as this is not a black and white issue. Ever considered the fact that both false memories and true memories may exsist? I know it's difficult for some people to believe. Our neursciences are in their infancy and have yet to develop techniques to test the reliability of memories. This website http://www.religioustolerance.org/rmt_ofte.htm also provides sources. As I have a day job I do not have the time or resources to fully research this and I am not the person who WROTE this, who is ultimately responsible for the contact.

Also, please site academic resources in your articles so that I can find proof, and please write without a preconceived notion in your head. This is suppose to not be biased.

Oh, and Max, you don't have to be a jerk and delete things or play an intellectual game with people. This is a controversial subject and this does have a very biased view and tone. - anon user 24.15.127.96

Well, as for my jerk status and intellectual games - sorry. I will change my ways. You have shown me what a lie my life has been and now I will make amends as best I can by trying to be a logical unbiased editer of articles prone to psuedo-scientific ranters.

Moving on, I checked your first cited source. Firstly, they support, at least implicitly, repressed memory therapy. More fool them. The head of the organisation has a book on MPD and one reader had this to say "It was my first exposure to MPD. I hadn't been diagnosed yet, but I read and read the different pieces and somehow from within, I felt like I understood exactly what they were saying. A year later, I was diagnosed with DID and my life took a turn for the worse." Oh wow, what a surprise. The Courage to Heal anyone? Someone reads a book about 'healing' personality disorders and then somehow gains a personality disorder and their life goes to the gutter. Join the long line honey.

Their little brochure on 'What are Traumatic Memories' is clearly biased and even throws in the line 'the body doesn't lie.' Fantastic. So, anyhow, I could go on and on, but I think I've seen enough. Maybe I'll look at your others.

In the meantime, might I suggest you read some of the editing guidelines of the wiki - for example, no one 'owns' this article - it is a collaboration. MaxMangel 08:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

http://www.jimhopper.com/memory/ This is actually cited on the article. Yes, I will edit the article once I have done more research, I just believe that the neutrality of this article IS disputed and I would like for the people who read this article to be aware and explore all sources. The Sidran Institute, although it does believe in DID (which, as with repressed memories, has yet to be disproven- although there are cases in which people were diagnosed with MPD or DID and did not or do not have it, there does appear to be validity to the dissociative expereince so I do not believe it is complete "psuedoscience"). I agree with most of what the article says- yes, false memories or pseudo memories do exsist. Unfortunately there is not enough evidence to say that they are the only phenomina, and there is imperical research and case studies pointing towards psychological repression or another phenomina happening to trauma survivors, especially those who have indured long term repeated trauma. At the very least there are anecdotally confirmed cases of "repression" or "delayed recall" or just plain forgetfullness. As our brain sciences advance we will find more conclusive answers, but it is dangerous to look at any issue as one sided, especially when there is, at the VERY least, anecdotal evidence.

reply:

I support the idea that this article is not neutral. I will not participate in this discussion regularly but wanted to offer some citations from psychinfo:

Clinical Characteristics of Adults Reporting Repressed, Recovered, or Continuous Memories of Childhood Sexual Abuse. By: McNally, Richard J.; Penman, Carol A.; Ristuccia, Carel S.; Clancy, Susan A.. Journal of Consulting & Clinical Psychology, Apr2006, Vol. 74 Issue 2, p237-242, 6p, 2 charts;

"The authors assessed women and men who either reported continuous memories of their childhood sexual abuse (CSA, n = 92), reported recovering memories of CSA (n = 38), reported believing they harbored repressed memories of CSA (n = 42), or reported never having been sexually abused (n = 36). Men and women were indistinguishable on all clinical and psychometric measures. The 3 groups that reported abuse scored similarly on measures of anxiety, depression, dissociation, and absorption. These groups also scored higher than the control group. Inconsistent with betrayal trauma theory, recovered memory participants were not more likely to report abuse by a parent or stepparent than were continuous memory participants. Rates of depression and posttraumatic stress disorder did not differ between the continuous and recovered memory groups."

~

Dissociative symptoms and how they relate to fantasy proneness in women reporting repressed or recovered memories. Geraerts, Elke; Merckelbach, Harald; Jelicic, Marko; Personality and Individual Differences, Vol 40(6), Apr 2006. pp. 1143-1151.

" Women with repressed or recovered memories have raised levels of dissociative symptoms. There are two interpretations of this. One emphasizes the defensive function of dissociation, while the other emphasizes the overlap between dissociation and fantasy proneness. This study aimed to investigate these two interpretations. Women with repressed (n = 16), recovered (n = 23), and continuous memories (n = 55) of childhood sexual abuse (CSA), and control participants (n = 20) completed measures of self-reported childhood trauma, depressive symptoms, trait anxiety, dissociation, and fantasy proneness. Women reporting repressed, recovered, and continuous CSA memories did not differ in self-reported childhood trauma, depression, and trait anxiety, but all scored significantly higher on these measures than the control group. However, contrast analyses revealed that women reporting repressed and recovered CSA memories also scored higher on dissociation than did those reporting either continuous CSA memories or no history of abuse. Our results further revealed that women who report CSA memories, whether repressed, recovered or continuous, have raised fantasy proneness levels. Hence, we found no support for the idea that dissociative symptoms can be fully accounted for by fantasy proneness."

~

Remembering the past, anticipating a future. Middleton, Warwick; Cromer, Lisa De Marni; Freyd, Jennifer; Australasian Psychiatry, Vol 13(3), Sep 2005. pp. 223-233.

" Objective: To provide an overview of the phenomena of recovered memories and false memories of past traumas and to provide illustrations with clinical vignettes as well as historical observations. Conclusions: The questions concerning the recovery of memories of trauma do not readily reduce to simple dichotomies. Whatever the terminology applied, be it repression, dissociation or forgetting, humans have a capacity to not consciously know about aspects of their traumas for extended periods of time. The nature of memory is reconstructive. Memory is not a digital recording that provides for a totally accurate replay. Multiple factors including the age at which traumas occurred, the relationships to the person responsible or the nature and extent of the traumas influence what will be accessible to memory. In regard to those patients who describe recovered memories, it is important that clinicians take an individualistic approach and remain open-minded. They should not feel pressure to validate or reject the claim; rather, they should respect and empower patients."

~

Traumatic Memories Recalled Differently by PTSD Sufferers

http://www.psych.org/news_room/press_releases/ptsd11404.pdf

"The study, “The Nature of Traumatic Memories: A 4-T fMRI Functional Connectivity Analysis,” led by Ruth Lanius, M.D., Ph.D., Department of Psychiatry, University of Western Ontario, Canada and an affiliate of the Robart's Research Institute, found that in people with PTSD, traumatic memories are associated with regions in the brain's right hemisphere, compared to the left in traumatized people without the disorder. The right hemisphere influences nonverbal memory recall, and the left influences a verbal pattern of memory recall. These differences explain why PTSD sufferers experience traumatic memories as flashbacks, and traumatized people without PTSD recall traumatic events as ordinary autobiographical memories. Ordinary autobiographical memories are usually recalled as personal narratives whereas flashbacks, unlike verbal narratives, are experienced as fragments of sensory stimuli, such as visual images, sounds or physical sensations." --Survivor 03:51, 11 June 2006 (UTC)survivor

~ References on Freud and Repressed memory

Recovered memory: Historical and theoretical foundations of the debate. Cerri, Mark M.; Dissertation Abstracts International: Section B: The Sciences and Engineering, Vol 65(9-B), 2005. pp. 4820.

"False memory syndrome is a current topic of extensive debate, but as yet there has been no systematic study of its historical foundations. Such investigations might shed new light not only on recovered memories and whether or not these memories are true or false, but also on how they are inextricably entwined with other phenomena, such as dissociation, trauma, multiple personality, and childhood sexual abuse. Beginning with a discussion of its historical context, a review of contemporary research on recovered memory, both pro and con, is then presented. However, while the question arises, whether or not the current literature adequately accounts for the phenomenon of recovered memory, the focus of this dissertation is on the nineteenth century foundations of the debate. Freud's recantation of the seduction theory, which postulated that his female patients had been sexually victimized as children but then had repressed their memory of the event, is reviewed and provides one theoretical viewpoint for understanding recovered memory. Pierre Janet and French dissociationism provide a second historical-theoretical line of inquiry. Janet has had a strong influence upon contemporary dissociationists, traumatologists, and researchers in multiple personality, such as Hilgard, Putnam, van der Kolk and van der Hart, and Herman among others. While Freud viewed repression as the primary mechanism by which childhood memories of abuse were forgotten, before Freud, Janet postulated that dissociation, which often caused a split in the personality, was the primary cause of this amnesia. However, in reviewing the history of dissociationism, it is apparent that F. W. H. Myers, a British psychical researcher, offered an alternative theory of dissociation that took issue with Janet's strictly pathological conceptualization of the subconscious. Myers, followed by William James and Theodore Flournoy, postulated that what he called the "subliminal consciousness" might also have superconscious aspects. Hence, the question arises, why is this subliminal point of view, which could be conceptualized as a precursor of transpersonal psychology, absent from the current debate, when it was so obviously influential during the nineteenth century discussions of the same problem? At present, the question remains unanswered. "

Please don't troll this page with massive slabs of text. I've now removed the POV tag, seeing as the article clearly now has sections on support for and against. MaxMangel 06:02, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

That comment does not deserve a reply. I don't talk to people who can't be civil so please do not send me a message either. --74.130.65.25 18:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)survivor

As long as you stop trolling the page then that's fine. Thank you for that. MaxMangel 02:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, while some content has been added showing that this subject is highly controversial and much disagreement exists with the basic arguments and facts cited, the two "Research and Theory.." sections emphasis a one-sided presentation, and are in part factually untrue. For example, it takes only a little research to come across many studies that refute their assertion that no evidence of recovered memories has been found in empirical and retrospective and peer reviewed studies. I have added one such source and will ask colleagues to contribute too. To present as fact an opinion piece on such a emotionally sensitive subject if to risk not only clouding a difficult issue, but to do actual harm to the most vulnerable victims of the abuses referenced here. I will get back shortly, but I wish to strongly disagree (if as a newcomer I understand the above comment by MaxMangel), with removing a POV tag. This article even with the few edits and additions remains clearly biased on a most controversial and heated subject. Further, the population most dramatically effected by the history of this debate is the least able to protect itself from the effects of denial of their experiences. As rare as it may be, to say as the article implies, that dissociative identity disorder (MPD) doesn't really exist, is to the people experiencing dissociation, like saying to people who have experienced discrimination, that it really isn't so bad since most people were not discriminated against. More later, wdteague

[edit] Incidence of sexual abuse

Actually, the incidence of sexual abuse, beatings, bullying and other forms of torture to children is very high among the general population.

This may or may not be an accurate statement — I'm not qualified to judge either way — but, if it is to stay in the article, some attempt needs to be made to provide supporting evidence. Such wild claims do not belong in a serious encyclopedia, and therefore I've removed the sentence until someone can turn it into something a little less incongruous. R Lowry 21:44, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Do you need sources, really? Okay, I'll start with RAINN's data on child sexual abuse. http://www.rainn.org/statistics/index.html RAINN, widely regarded as a leader in sexual assault research and treatment, sites studies stating that sexual abuse and rape are prevalent. There are some freudians who disagree with this, mostly because they have their heads under rocks.

I'm not going to get involved in this debate, but I'd really, really, like to comment on that first sentence of your's. "Do you need sources, really?" What a terrible way to start a comment. The number of things we think we know, but which turn out to have been wrong, is quite large. So, yes, even if we "know" we're right, we need sources, even on things which really are well established.

In 2003-2004, there were an average annual 204,370 victims of rape, attempted rape or sexual assault. About 44% of rape victims are under age 18, and 80% are under age 30. Because of the methodology of the National Crime Victimization Survey, these figures do not include victims 12 or younger. While there are no reliable annual surveys of sexual assaults on children, (pdf) the Justice Department has estimated that one of six victims are under age 12.

How about bullying? http://www.atriumsoc.org/pages/bullyingstatistics.html RECENT STATISTICS SHOW THAT:

1 out of 4 kids is Bullied. The American Justice Department says that this month 1 out of every 4 kids will be abused by another youth. Surveys Show That 77% of students are bullied mentally, verbally, & physically. In a recent study, 77% of the students said they had been bullied. And 14% of those who were bullied said they experienced severe (bad) reactions to the abuse. 1 out of 5 kids admits to being a bully, or doing some "Bullying." 8% of students miss 1 day of class per month for fear of Bullies. 43% fear harassment in the bathroom at school. 100,000 students carry a gun to school. 28% of youths who carry weapons have witnessed violence at home. A poll of teens ages 12-17 proved that they think violence increased at their schools. 282,000 students are physically attacked in secondary schools each month. More youth violence occurs on school grounds as opposed to on the way to school. Playground statistics - Every 7 minutes a child is bullied. Adult intervention - 4%. Peer intervention - 11%. No intervention - 85%.

What else do you need? It to happen to you???

Shouldn't there be a disambiguation for political/military repression?

[edit] Portrayals in popular entertainment

I've added a stub section on the portrayal of repression in pop culture. Right now there's just one example, Tommy. I also thought of the character Cloud Strife in Final Fantasy VII, but I can't quite figure out how to work him in. If you can, or if you have other good examples, please add to the section. —RadRafe 20:06, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Pop culture

I'm not a doctor/psychiatrist/psychologist and as such don't really know what I'm talking about but it seems to me that some of the pop culture examples might more accurately be called amnesia. The one where the person was unable to remember a significant portion of their life rather than just specific traumatic memories just seemed incongruous to me. I am hesitant to change it not really knowing anything about it but might in a few days. -orizon 15:49, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] We should merge this article with False Memory

This is the same topic as False memory. Why two pages? We should merge these two. RK 19:15, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

They're closely related, especially according to certain POVs, but they are not the same topic. A "false memory" is an imagining of an experience that is mistaken for a memory of an actual experience. A "repressed memory" is an actual memory that is, because of trauma, lost to conscious recall and then made available to it again. Now, to say what a thing is is not to say such a thing exists; there are people (like myself) who think that repression is a logical theory which happens to be completely wrong, and that recovered "repressed memories" are actually false memories. However, a) this does not make the two concepts the same thing, and b) it would break NPOV to merge articles on two different things just because one POV considers them the same. -- Antaeus Feldspar 23:37, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

My only criticism of this article is that it's clearly not current. Alas, neither am I. But some notation should be made that studies from various angles have shown that memories, imagination and suggestion can all result in equally real and plausible-seeming records.

To put this in context, nobody had the slightest idea that was true, or that one could so easily create answers by asking questions and this has caused an amazing cascade of new research and investigation.

From what I understand at this point, accepted clinical practice is to now say "I believe that you believe that" and then get onto treating the trauma. Because a suddenly appearing memory of trauma is traumatic, and you don't need to know whether it's real or not to do that, once it's esablished that it's a long ago, far away, not happening now sort of thing.

The only time the question of whether it "really" happened or not arised when there may be danger to someone, in which case "Manditory Reporting" laws kick in.

And again, it's my understanding that, as a direct result of the fiascos of the eighties, interview styles have changed entirely - a fact that's certainly worth noting.

I found this in a quick google that may well merit inclusion - but there's much more here that is worth reading first.

| The Issue of Recovered Memories of Abuse

There is some evidence that suggestibility can be enhanced and pseudomemories can develop in some individuals when hypnotic techniques are used as a memory enhancement or retrieval strategy (Pope & Brown, 1996, p. 59). Hypnosis and guided imagery techniques can be used to ehance relaxation and teach soothing strategies with some clients, however, it is recommended that they not be used in the active exploration of memories of abuse.

Traumatologists should maintain a critical stance in relation to their assumptions, theories, research, and assessment procedures/instruments (Pope & Brown, 1996).

Recognize and minimize as much as possible imbalances in power within the therapeutic dyad. Recognize and respect the adult autonomy of clients. Strengthen the client's critical thinking skills through the use of open-ended questions, and strengthen their abilities to resist suggestion. The risk of creating pseudomemories or of avoiding real traumatic memories will be reduced (Pope & Brown, 1996).

When clients are highly distressed by intrusive flashbacks of delayed memories, assist them in regaining their power to move beyond their confusion, however do not provide premature certainty (Pope & Brown, 1996). Encourage and model a tolerance of distress and ambiguity

Inform clients they are free to make their own decisions regarding their intrusive symptoms, without being pushed in any particular direction. Support them in coping with their anxiety from not having immediate or certain answers.

The thing to note here is that this entire field of Traumatology is quite new, and has arisin in response to the failures of the 80's and 90's, with no doubt added pressure from insurance companies and natural disasters for responses that are immediatly helpful and enabling, rather than disabling. --Firewheel 18:54, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I have created Traumatologist after seeing the reference to Traumatology here. (MaxMangel 08:37, 25 January 2006 (UTC))

[edit] Recovered memory therapy

I have now created an article on Recovered memory therapy. I do not think it should be merged here, but I encourage anyone who's worked on this page to perhaps have a go at my article. Grandmasterka 08:45, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Theories"

currently this paragraph appears in the article:

"One popular theory on how repression works is that traumatic memories are stored scattered about in the amygdala and hippocampus but not integrated into the neocortex. Also, it could be possible the right brain stores the memory but does not communicate it to the verbal left brain. But evidence suggesting repression can sometimes be a continual active effort by the unconscious which can be dropped at a moments notice should the unconscious decide to. For example, one possibility might be the anterior cingular actively inhibits the memory from reaching consciousness."

The phrasing "it could be possible" and "one possibility might be" gives me the uncomfortable suspicion that we are seeing the original research speculations of Wikipedia editors, rather than scientific theories with any notability to them. Also, the third sentence, even if we make it an actual sentence by converting the "suggesting" to "suggests" -- well, then we have to ask, what evidence is this which suggests this? Whose word are we taking that this evidence exists? Can we get some citations on these claims? -- 20:20, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Body Memory

Well, there is no article for Body Memory, so I'll go ahead and make one. Feel free to contribute if you guys know anything about it.

[edit] What about Freud?

What about Sigmund Freud? He was the one to originate the concept of repressed memory of traumatic sexual events in early childhood during the 1880s, after all. I think it should be duly noted that Freud abandoned this theory himself even before WWI when he'd found out by his psychoanalytical practice that it is not in fact memories of traumatic events that are repressed but tabooed personal desire that is considered (and thus, by social communication and socilization, made) far more taboo than any other person's acts, one's own acts, and even any sensually received input event at all. His arguments for this change of attitude were

• a.) that he increasingly found evidences in individual cases even logically outruling any potential possibility the 'recovered' events could have occured,

• b.) that to a degree he found himself able to 'direct' his suggestible patients into any recollection of memory he wanted to, even moreso in an entirely boundless manner when he turned to sexual matters, and

• c.) linked aspects that had not been repressed were not perceived by his patients as alarming or frightening on themselves but in fact frequently even were connoted with positive emotions, partly even very intensely so, that the patients themselves could not explain.

Freud deduced from a.) and b.) that the unconscious mind actually knows no distinction between memories and imagination and therefore easily becomes subject to manipulation of memories and imagination, and by combining this analysis with c.), he concluded that it's personal desires and fantasies that are getting repressed as demanded according to social taboo.

Ever since Freud's original publications, we have seen a continous desexualization of psychoanalysis, psychology, and psychotherapy. He was initially rejected from the beginning in Europe for saying that which was considered lecherous and perverse was in fact the repressed norm in humanity. It were Americans that popularized him since the 1920s as from their reductionist socio-hygienical point of view, all they understood from his theories was that accordingly to traditional views and believes, demonized sexuality was closely tied in with behavioural deviance and madness and that Freud seemingly had found a way to 'cure' all this. However during the following decades, psychoanalysis and psychology increasingly proved to be far from 'curing' these sins just as their creator had never projected them to (which becomes obvious when you analyze the etymology behind the two terms, there simply is no 'cure' in there, at best one can hope for personal awareness), especially since the fact of 'perversions' and 'deviancies' being normal was only furthermore denied by artificial classifications of 'mental illnesses'. Thus, interest naturally drifted away from Freud's methods to that of pharmaceutical psychiatry and other physical means of control such as lobotomy, stereotactical anterior hypothalamotomy, electrocution, or just plain old intimidation from the established forces that be and the socio-economical, socio-cultural, and socio-psychological facts they create, aka cognitive behaviour therapy.

However by this factual resexualization as apparent in 1980s sensationalist Repressed Memory Therapy and its disillusioning aftermath, an optimistic mind might hope for that after just now having passed Freud's stages of a.) and b.) mainstream scientific research might get ready to walk that path at last that Freud himself had gone all the way where at its deep end he found the three-fold concept of Id, Super-ego, and Ego, what each of those, especially the Id, are comprised of, and how they interact with each other. I consider it to be beneficial linking Freud's stages of a.) and b.) to contemporary trends in this article. -TlatoSMD 00:08, 10 May 2006 (CEST)

Well, you seem to know a lot about it. Give it a go. MaxMangel 00:25, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

c) is very wordy, and I think the meaning of whatever you are trying to say is lost. Please rephrase, perhaps by splitting into more than one sentence. Also, your final summary is a bit POV, so you might want to consider revising it before someone else does. MaxMangel 06:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Umm...

Today's method doesn't seem compatible with psychology, It's almost the science OF subjectivity. Have you ever found yourself crying for someone's death some time AFTER they died? When I read about the controversy...It's not that digital.

[edit] Small edits needed

Quickly, while skimming through this article, I noticed two things:

1) There are no sources listed, and none of the end notes actually link to anything.

2) In Section 3, paragraph 3, it is stated that people can force themselves to forget trauma, like in (Elizabeth Loftus's) "Lost in the Mall" experiments. This is factually inaccurate, as Loftus's experiment actually demonstrated that people can "remember" events that never actually happened. (In the experiment, subjects "remembered" details about being lost in a mall when they were children after having been prompted by someone they knew; see Loftus's book, The Myth of Repressed Memory.)

[edit] Feminism

The section on Freud says he abandoned his theory of repressed memory not "during his later years in life" and not due to social pressure, as some feminist schools of thought claim today. That seems awkwardly phrased to me. More importantly, we need a reference, and a fairly recent one if we keep the word "today". And while it doesn't seem strictly necessary, I'd also like to see evidence of mainstream feminists accepting any supposed "feminist" beliefs. Dan 01:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] criticism (-> "false memories") should be mentioned in the introduction

I agree that this article should be neutral. As criticism that "repressed memories" are in fact "false memories" is so central to this topic, neutrality means that the criticism should be mentioned already in the introduction. (Nothing long, obviously, just mentioning it.) Right now, I have to scroll before I even get the link to false memories for the first time. Not good... :-) [And again, this does not mean that the article should favor one view or the other. It's just about a fair representation.] --71.232.94.99 06:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Religious implications

I'm sorry but the section entitled "Religious implications regarding the failures of RMT" does NOT belong on this article. It is poorly sourced and almost entirely irrelevant. I could see this being discussed on a Christian forum of some sort but it does not belong in this article. --Ubiq 02:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality of Wikipedia and science I am appalled at the obvious slant of this article, which maintains mainstream ideology feeling safe. Despite various substantiated cases of traumatic amnesia, not only in sexual abuse but combat, the Deniers still exists. Just as the holocaust is too ugly for some to believe there are still deniers of this historical event. Until the mainstream ideology realizes that children are being abused on a regular basis we will not be able to protect them. What is it about this topic frightens people that they have to deny it. Here are scientific studies and cases if anyone is interested. http://dynamic.uoregon.edu/~jjf/traumapapers.html http://www.jimhopper.com/memory/#de http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Taubman_Center/Recovmem/arch_legal.html

[edit] repression/suppression

If someone referrers to suppressed memories, is that different from repressed memories? In the Repressed_memory article there are a few time 'suppressed memories' are mentioned. From what I can tell, there is no psychological definition of suppressed memories. (69.88.112.114 22:35, 4 January 2007 (UTC))