Talk:Rhythm Method

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Contents 1 Current issues with this article 2 Proposed Infobox for individual birth control method articles 3 Edits of 28 September 4 Obsolescense? 5 NFP always more effective than Rhythm? 6 "Comparison to FA" vs. "Reasons for high failure rate" 7 Is "comparison to FA" section necessary? 8 "pregnancy rate" rather than "failure rate" 9 Removing or incorporating trivia 10 Perimon 11 Fertility calculators

[edit] Current issues with this article

• This says that the rhythm method and fertility awareness are the same thing. Perhaps this article is describing the "Calendar Rhythm Method"?

• The intro says the rhythm method is used to avoid sex during a woman's predicted fertile period. Is the rhythm method also used to increase chances of pregnancy for couples trying to have kids?

• Why has MamaGeek removed a wikilink to natural family planning twice? was this intentional? Is the NFP article wrong to say the rhythm method is a form of NFP?

--Andrew c 17:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• That first link you provided is just wrong. The rhythm method is not the same as fertility awareness. See the Wikipedia article on Fertility awareness.
• Yes, the rhythm method can be used to help achieve pregnancy. I will add that to the article.
• The rhythm method is a form of natural birth control. NFP uses several methods of natural birth control to predict fertile/infertile times. NFP is a religious form of natural birth control. It has more restrictions on what can be done during fertile times (for instance, NFP does not allow masturbation during fertile times). You don't have to be reliously-motivated to use the rhythm method.

MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 18:02, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• • • Well, wikipedia is about verifiablity. Here is another link that says the Calendar Rhythm Method is a form of FA. And another (note this site claims FA and NFP are the same). and another. and another. and another. etc. So my research is verifiable and it shows that FA and NFP are the same, and that the Calendar Rhythm method is a form of FA. This is clearly a prevelent POV that simply cannot be ignored. What sources do you have to back up your claims that a) NFP is not FA because it is religiously motivated and has masturbation stipulations and b) that the rhythm method is not a method of FA? I went to the FA article and saw the same claims there with no sources.
    • Thanks for updating the article on that!
    • I guess I already talked about NFP above. We just need to make sure that the content is verifiable and sourced reliably.--Andrew c 18:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Your original entry said, "This says that the rhythm method and fertility awareness are the same thing." These ones are saying that the Rythm Method is a form of FA/NFP. Those two statements are not identical. Every square is a rectangle, but not every rectangle is a square. Balloonman 07:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I think a lot of websites borrow misinformation from one another, so a preponderance of websites does not make something true. My primary source is Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Weschler, MPH, a National Bestseller. That book has an 11-page bibliography of independent sources which cite all of the data included. Let me see if I can break it down for you more clearly:

• NFP is a religiously-motivated set of methods which attempt to predict fertile and infertile times based on scientific observations. It forbids orgasmic acts outside of marital intercourse, and therefore requires abstinence during fertile periods if used for birth control.
• Fertility awareness is a set of methods which attempt to predict fertile and infertile times based on scientific observations. It includes no stipulations about what to do with that information during fertile times. (In other words, condom use is acceptable.)
• Rhythm method is a method included in NFP, but considered outdated and inaccurate. It is usually not taught with Fertility Awareness anymore.
• Basal body temperature is a method of NFP and FA that involves tracking a woman's daily temperature and observing cyclic shifts that indicate ovulation and other changes (including early pregnancy detection)
• Billings ovulation method is a method of NFP and FA that tracks fertility by paying attention to the sensation at the vulva and the appearance of any vaginal discharge.
• Creighton Model is a method of NFP and FA similar to Billings
• Cervical Position is a method of FA that involves observations of...cervical position (who would've guessed?)
• Lactational Amenorrhea Method is a method of NFP and FA that involves the infertility caused by breastfeeding

MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 18:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Do you have page numbers or anything? Does your book support the claims you make? What if I called your book "misinformation", and copy and pasted one of my linked sources. where would that get us? The whole idea is not to present The Truth, but instead each relevent POV. Therefore, we are going to have to compromise, and we are going to have to include BOTH POVs. I think we should merge FA, NFP, and NBC into one larger article, and then have individual articles for the individual methods. The question would be what should the overall article be called? NFP gets the most google hits.--Andrew c 20:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The Catholic Church allows NFP [1] [2] [3]. The Catholic Church does not allow condoms [4], masturbation [5] [6], or oral sex [7]. FA allows all of these things. Therefore FA and NFP must be different, despite popular misconception to the contrary.

NFP also includes breastfeeding infertility [8]. FA includes only observational methods, NOT breastfeeding infertility.

It is Wikipedia policy to use the names preferred by the people they describe WP:NCI. Catholics prefer to have their method called NFP. Non-religiously motivated users prefer to have their method called FA. Weshler's book is consistently in the top few hundred best sellers on Amazon #309 on 6/13/06, and a community with 16,000 members is based on her book [9]. Post on that forum and ask people who actually use the method if there's a difference, and they will tell you yes. Lyrl 23:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I can see that side of things. First thing though, it is not our place to claim certain POV are misconceptions. If we want to have a section on etymology and usages, that's fine. Another solution would be to have a disambiguation sentence at the top. Anyway, let me make sure I have this straight. The article on FA describes a group fo systems aimed at measuring/recording/observing/counting the fertility cycle of a woman in order to pinpoint ovulation (either to avoid pregnancy, or to increase chances to conceive). The article on NFP describes the group of catholic supported birth control methods that focus on certain forms of FA and other NBC, with stipulations about abstaining part of the time (instead of using other methods of contraception or masturbating or what have you). NBC covers all forms of BC that do not use barriers, chemicals, surgery, devices, etc (including all of FA and NFP (minus the religious strings attached)). Have I got that right?

How does adding a disambig sentence to the top of NFP like The term 'natural family planning' is sometimes used more generally to refer to Fertility Awareness? Finally, is the rhythm method a type of FA? Thanks for the links and input. --Andrew c 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The Rhythm Method is still taught as part of NFP, and it could be considered a form of FA, but most FA practitioners and instructors today consider it obsolete, since it's so inaccurate, and there are better methods now available. There's a sentence to that effect in the FA article. I'll take a stab at rewording it a little. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 11:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Weschler's book (the new edition, 2002) contains a chapter on lactational infertility. Just FYI. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 11:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I think I agree with the direction the talk is heading. Just a few points: couples who do not want to use barriers or chemicals to avoid pregnancy are generally attracted to both FA and LAM. Most FA teachers also teach LAM, and the Weschler, Singer, and Kippley FA/NFP books all have sections on LAM. BUT, LAM is breastfeeding, not observing fertility signs. They are two seperate methods. To my understanding, Rhythm is also not an FA method, because it does not involve observing fertility signs. Although again, it might attract the same demographic because of the no barriers no chemicals aspect. Lyrl 23:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Infobox for individual birth control method articles

Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Wikipedia Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 12:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits of 28 September

• What is the rational for putting the discussion of failure rates ahead of the description of the methods? That is not the case in any of the other birth control articles, and is awkward to read.

• Why are environmental factors duplicated? They are now listed both in the "high failure rate" section and in the "perfect and imperfect use" sections. Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 13:11, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Obsolescense?

According to the National Survey of Family Growth, 0.7% of Americans are using the Rhythm Method, while 0.2% are using fertility awareness (see Table 4 in Use of Contraception and Use of Family Planning Services in the United States: 1982-2002. Advance Data No. 350). So over three times as many people use Rhythm as FA. I understand that FA teachers consider Rhythm obsolete, but that doesn't mean that it is, see? The huge number of people that use it (approximately 2 million Americans, according to the NSFG estimate) testifies otherwise.

Also consider than the Standard Days Method is very recent - the journal references in this description (pdf) are from 1999-2003. It was obviously developed for use in modern times. Advantages include very low skills required of users (no math, as in the original Rhythm), very fast teaching time (no need to describe cervical mucus), and easier compliance (defined fertile/infertile days vs. trying to interpret a chart). In developing countries, the cost savings and increased outreach can justify teaching such a method with slightly higher failure rates. Again, I do not think this type of method is obsolete. Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 23:07, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Point taken. Rather than dismiss the method as obsolete, I have instead clarified the term 'the rhythm method', and included a short comparison detailing the differences between it and fertility awareness. Joie de Vivre 02:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NFP always more effective than Rhythm?

This statement inserted into the most recent edit ("FA and NFP... are more accurate than Rhythm") confused me. I thought Rhythm was a type of NFP? I'm fairly sure most or all of the 2 million Americans who use Rhythm are under the impression they are practicing NFP. Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 02:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Comparison to FA" vs. "Reasons for high failure rate"

These two sections are currently duplicating some information (Rhythm thrown off by cycle irregularities, etc.). Any suggestions for avoiding this duplication? Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 02:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is "comparison to FA" section necessary?

Much of the information in the "comparison" section is a duplicate of information in the first three paragraphs of the article. Information that is not duplicated doesn't really seem relevant to this article (listing the three primary physiologic signs of fertility, naming and wikilinking to specific method articles like Billings), or could easily be incorporated into the second paragraph (FA teachers consider Rhythm obsolete).

Any thoughts on removing this section? Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 02:35, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I think these edits helped address my concerns. But I'm still not convinced the comparison section is necessary.

I'm going to be very nitpicky here. I think my position is kind of subtle, so I'm going to give detailed explanations, sentence by sentence.

• Unlike Rhythm, modern techniques of fertility awareness involve direct observation and charting of several physiological signs of fertility,... - this could be integrated into the second paragraph of the intro.
• ...including basal body temperature, and consistency of cervical mucus. These bodily cues provide immediate feedback regarding a woman's current state of fertility. - I'm not convinced this level of detail is necessary in the Rhythm Method article.
• These biological signals are significant, because many women experience some variation in the length of their cycle. - Cycle variation in and of itself isn't as significant as this sentence would imply. The Rhythm Method accounts for variation - a woman's longest and shortest cycles are part of the math. And for the newer Standard Days, that's why only women with cycle lengths in a certain 6-day range can use it. The advantage of FA is when a woman with a one- to two-year history of regular cycles suddenly has one cycle significantly different. It's not variation per se, it's the occasional deviation from historical limits. If that made any sense. In any case, this point is already addressed as a weakness in the "high failure rate" section. The comparison to FA could be incorporated into that section, too.
• In contrast, the Rhythm method relies on statistical estimates and calendar reference,... - this is highly similar to the very first sentence of the article, The Rhythm Method... involves counting days of a woman's menstrual cycle. I'm not sure the duplication is necessary.
• ...providing, at best, an educated guess of the likelihood of fertility. This sentence implies Rhythm doesn't work. True, 9% annual pregnancy rate is bad for a method of birth control. But it is dramatically different from 85% annual pregnancy rate of doing nothing to prevent pregnancy. And the continued sales of contraceptive sponges and cervical caps demonstrate that 9% perfect-use failure rate is acceptable to many people. I don't believe the vilification of the method in the article text is called for - the failure rates should speak for themselves.
• The Rhythm method is less accurate than modern fertility awareness methods (see Reasons for high failure rate). Because of this, many fertility awareness teachers consider calendar rhythm to have been obsolete for at least 20 years. - if not technically, at least in spirit this is duplicating the current second paragraph. I see no reason it could not be integrated there.
• At one time, the Rhythm Method was promoted as an acceptable form of natural family planning by the Catholic Church. However, as in the fertility awareness community, the Rhythm method has largely been dropped. - to remain in this form this sentence needs a citation. As far as I am aware, Rhythm is still an acceptable method to the RCC (the sentence as currently constructed implies it is no longer acceptable), I have shown above on this talk page that 2 million Americans are still using it (so it hasn't been dropped), and the newer variant of Standard Days is being actively promoted in developed countries (far from being dropped). In developed countries, priests who bother to have NFP as part of Pre-Cana or otherwise promoted to their congregation choose FA methods (so couples learning NFP in developed countries are learning FA), but that is a considerably more specific statement than the current one.
• The Billings Ovulation Method and the Creighton Model are currently researched and advocated by the leaders of this church, today - I don't think the 'leaders' part is accurate (being part of a Catholic organization does not automatically make a person a "leader of the church"), the list of advocated methods is incomplete (it does not mention Marquette or sympto-thermo or devices like LadyComp), and I'm not understanding how this sentence is relevant to this article at all. Fertility awareness methods have already been discussed - what's the rationale for going in-depth on all the different methods available?

Lyrl ^Talk _Contribs 02:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Lyrl, this response seems more verbose than is necessary for the concerns raised. I would appreciate it if you would make an effort to be a bit more succinct. That said, I think that some of your concerns are somewhat valid, but they would be better served by you making minor adjustments to the section, rather that by exhaustively listing this (and only this) section's faults on the Talk page. I think the common confusion between Rhythm, FA/NFP, and sex with no method warrants the existence of the section. I oppose its deletion. Joie de Vivre 20:27, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Good job Lyrl; your edits made a significant, clarifying improvement to this section. Joie de Vivre 18:51, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "pregnancy rate" rather than "failure rate"

Note discussion at Talk:Birth control#"pregnancy rate" rather than "failure rate" re replacing occurrences of "failure rate" with "pregnancy rate". I would also like to see the same change on this page. Please make any comments there. --Coppertwig 04:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing or incorporating trivia

According to Wikipedia policy at Wikipedia:Avoid trivia sections in articles the two items of trivia under "Popular culture references" should be worked in to the article if pertinent (which I would say they are not) or deleted (which I think it should). Darentig 19:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

They're both fact-tagged anyway and can be deleted on those grounds. Lyrl ^Talk _C 01:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Perimon

Dear Lyrl, referring to your last edit "rv addition of unsourced material - no studies linked to on Perimon's webpage, either, just unsourced claims)". Perimon is an enhancements of the rhythm method. Since it is acts much more cautious and designates only up to 10.5 days as infertile, it is quite obvious that it has to be safer than the standard days method. Anyhow I have no idea why you do not want to have a reference to Perimon on the rhythm method page. As long as no clinical studies exist we do not mention it? Best regards, corcov

I had misunderstood that Perimon only allowed a maximum of 10.5 fertile days. I was suspicious of such a low number. My apologies. I have added some information on Perimon back into the article. Lyrl ^Talk _C 15:17, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fertility calculators

An edit was recently made to the external links section adding a Babymed fertility calculator, which I reverted. Now, a Google search for the phrase "fertility calculator" gives 127,000 hits. Wikipedia is not a repository of links, and considering the huge number of fertility calculators out there, including links to them would make this article such a "repository".

At present, we have two links to sites that offer fertility calculation: CycleBeads (external links), and Perimon (references section). These are unique in that they are the only sites I am aware of that promote their product for avoiding pregnancy. I would also be open to including a small number of other sites if it were argued they had some unique characteristic, that did not put this article in danger of gaining thousands of sites in the external links section. Does this sound reasonable to others? Lyrl ^Talk _C 02:19, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Seems fair enough. I am also of the conviction that we should keep EL to a minimum. A list of links to specific fertility calculators is a lot less encyclopedic than (if it exists) an indepth article about fertility caluclators in general.-Andrew c 17:11, 26 February 2007 (UTC)