Talk:Rollo of Normandy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This Article is part of WikiProject Middle Ages, a project for the community of Wikipedians who are interested in the Middle Ages. For more information, see the project page and the newest articles. |
 |
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. | ||
| ??? | This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article. [FAQ] | ||
Contents |
[edit] Copied from Talk: Hrolf Ganger
Last time I checked, we called him Rollo the Brave in English.... JHK
Gange Hrolf was not the Rollo of Normandy
- Back to the old nomenclature question. I personally favor the Anglicized-Scandanavian version - Hrolf Ganger or Hrolf the Walker, whichever - because Rollo is ambiguous with other persons. I haven't seen "Rollo the Gangler" in any of my references, but it could certainly be added to the many variants on this name. -- April
Were we to use consensus nomenclature, the article would be entitled Rollo I, Duke of Normandy -- do you mind? Got the R the G from Hollister, BTW JHK
- Hm... I suppose I hadn't really thought of him in that context, but by all means let's go with the consensus nomenclature. I can get to it this weekend if someone doesn't move it first. -- April
Was there a Rollo II? If not, he's plain "Rollo, Duke of Normandy". Except on conversion he aparently adopted the name Robert and is given in some lists as Robert I (which means renumbering all the later Roberts). Aaaaargh! User:David Parker
- David -- where did you get that? I know William's father was Robert, but I've NEVER heard that Rolf or Rollo was Robert. And NO ONE was called Robert then anyway -- was he Rodbertus, Ruadpertus (unlikely, that's more east of the Rhine), Rupertus (also more eastern, but where the Rupertiner was eastern, their distant cousins were the Robertians, i.e., Capetians...)? Don't suppose you've got a nice source we couold check? Annales Bertiniani? Vedastini? I'm pretty sure it's not in Annales Fuldensis, which is a drag, since I have that at home... ugh. JHK
-
- I wasn't too happy with it myself: I certainly don't want to end up adding a I to every subsequent Robert. If he's the only Rollo we're likely to have, we could just title him "Rollo", or leave the title as is: the "of Normandy" is only really necessary when the regnal name occurs in other contexts. User:David Parker
-
- Alas, it seems that there's more than one Rollo around... besides Hrolf, there's a character in a book and also a musical Rollo whose full name escapes me at the moment. -- April
PS. Is Rollo really French, or just their rendition of his original name?
- I always thought (on no grounds at all) that Rollo is a Latinization from the chronicles of a name like Hrolf. MichaelTinkler
- I think it's Francification Latinized. Really. No Joke. They did that. It's what makes my research so interesting. Can't spell a name the same way twice in a document. Really. AAARRRGGHH!!! JHK
I have to second the AAAARRRRGGHHH... I just found a source that questions whether Hrolf/Rollo can actually be fairly called a "duke" at all! Excerpts from Rosamond McKitterick's, "The Frankish Kingdom under the Carolingians, 751-987", (Longman) 1983:
- "Rollo is thought to have been Norwegian rather than Danish, and later Icelandic sources identify him with Hrolf the Ganger (Walker), son of Ragnvald Earl of Moer, who had a career as a Viking before settling in Francia.... Flodoard adds the information that Rollo received baptism and the Frankish name Robert with the cession of this territory. ... Rollo seems to have been made a count in 911, with the traditional duties assigned to a Carolingian count, namely, protection and the administration of justice. He was certainly subordinate to the Frankish King. With the proliferation of titles accorded the leader of the Normandy Vikings in later sources, some historians hace suggested that Rollo was made a duke, but Werner has argued that there was no Norman 'marchio' before 950-6, and no duke before 987-1006 ... Rollo appears to have received his territory on similar terms as the Bretons had received the Cotentin, except that the bishoprics were also ceded. ..... In exchange, Rollo was to defend the Seine from other Vikings, accept baptism and become the 'fidelis' of the Frankish King."
Ack! Does this mean he is, in consensus nomenclature,
- Rollo I, Duke of Normandy
- Rollo, Duke of Normandy
- Robert I, Duke of Normandy
- Rollo, Count of Normandy
- Robert I, Count of Normandy''''''''''
NO signed Stalker
... or what?? Anyone know where current thinking is on this? -- April
- AHA! This is an example of an excellent source! It's a tough call, because McKitterick seems to be implying that Werner thinks that R. could not have been a duke if there were no marchio. That's very silly, because Werner is very clear that there are both comites marchionis and duces marchionis. Normally speaking, I trust Werner, because he's been doing this stuff forever. But Carolingian sources are notorious for the interchangeability of titles and name spellings. My guess is that somebody found a reference to Rollo as dux and pieced it together with a much later duchy. I think that we should go with 'Count (some authors say Duke)...'. And I'm pretty sure we call him Rollo -- the best way to check is to find someone like Robert Curthose, get his number, and count backward. Me, I'm off to write a lecture on the English revolution.JHK
[edit] New Talk
Does anybody know if Rollo's size (height / weight) was ever documented? To earn the nickname 'the walker' he must have been rather large.
I'm confused. I got here from Battle of Soissons where it says that Rollo died in the battle. However June 15 says that Robert I of France died in that battle and his article seems to confirm that. Where these two different men who died on the same day at the same battle or are they the same person? Please fix all the articles I cited accordingly. --mav 03:58, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- They are not the same person. It is not known exactly when or where Rollo died but it was after 928 and therefore after the Battle of Soissons. (see Rollo's Henry Project page). Part of the confusion is genealogical; part is the anachronistic application of the title of Count to Rollo; part is the expectation of an orderly series of French kings. I think only the Battle of Sossoins article needs fixing: it was Robert I who was killed there, and Charles III who was captured there, and Rollo who wasn't there. - Nunh-huh 04:26, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- P.S. the article here somewhat naïvely accepts the identification of "Hrolf" with "Rollo": there's little basis for this and it ought not to be propounded as fact. I'm not up to straightening it up right now, though. Maybe someone will beat me to it! -- Nunh-huh 04:30, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- When it comes Rollo's height, and if he was the Norwegian Gange-Rolv, remember that the old Norwegian horses wasn't very big. He might have been a tall man, but certainly no gigant. --FinnWiki 01:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Family
Someone (maybe me when I can find time) needs to do a section on his wife and kiddies. William is mentioned, but not Gerloc/Adele, who married William III of Aquitaine. --Michael K. Smith 01:52, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Burial
I remember seeing in a tour guide some years ago that Hrolf was supposed to have been interred at Notre-Dame in Rouen. Anybody know? --Michael K. Smith 01:32, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] References
Does it strike anyone that the list of refs is a hodge-podge? It looks like the original author (or someone) just threw in every book they could find that had "viking" in the title. I would not feel comfortable deleting any of these -- since they're not "wrong," just pointless -- but this method dilutes the untility of the list. --Michael K. Smith 01:40, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Descent
re the last bit on the house of windsor & descent from rollo - thought the windsorites were formally of hanover & prior to that a distinct break w/ the house of orange from holland & prior to that other distinct houses ie tudors, plantangents and finally william I's family? how could eliza ii be directly related? royal lines die out etc etc etc
- (comment moved to new section) See Direct descent from William I to Elizabeth II. Man vyi 08:57, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
- You're confused by the term 'die out', I think. None of the families you listed died out, they simply married into other families (and other members went on with the same name). William the Conquerer (and Rollo here) ARE direct ancestors of Elizabeth II. William is the great great great great (and so on) grandfather of Elizabeth, in other words. I don't see why you think that just because the family/house name changes, the family dies out. If I have say, one and only one child, a daughter, and she marries some guy named Bob Smith, her children (and thus, all of my descendants) will be named Smith. They won't share my family name but I will still be their direct ancestor. --24.131.9.50 22:09, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Still kicking to Rollo
A small research about Rollo of Normandy.
1. A Danish Prince: The statement of the Norman Dudo of Saint-Quentin ("De Moribus et Actis Primorum Normanniae Ducum") that Rollo was a Danish prince. (Dudo a much more recent and living alot nearer the regions concerned).
2. Wrote on Request of Rollo´s grandson: Dudo wrote Rollo´s story some 60 years after Rollo's death (d.931) at the request of his grandson Richard I.
Snorre (The Icelandic saga) wrote his saga tree centuries later. And he lived on Iceland!)
Iceland is a island very far away from Normandy. Settled by peaceful settlers who were seeking green fields.
3. Yet another proof that the Icelandic saga is mostly fiction: Snorre's inconsistency in describing "Hrolf" father as a dear friend of King Harold Fairhair, yet relating Hrolf's assault on Viken as if an enemy.
4. Another Hrolf!: The existence of another Jarl Hrolf in Normandy, whom Orkneyinga Saga aka the Icelandic Snorre may have mistaken for Rollo. Or maybe he just wanted Rollo of Normandy to be Icelandic.
5. Reference to other Danes: Dudo's reference to Rollo's brother Gorm(Gurim), who arrived in France in the company of his "uncle Sigfred” (Sigfred III). (Ragnar's son, and of Godfrid, the son of Harold Klak," who played a prominent role in the Battle of Saulcourt in 881. Harald Klak was the one who arrived with 60 ships in Normandy).
6. Born in Denmark: Benoit de St. More; Chronique des Ducs de Normandie (Writed about 1190): States that Rollo was born in Fakse in his native country. This is presumably Fakse in Stevns in eastern Zealand of Denmark, which agrees very well with Dudo's account that Rollo fled to Scania (Skåne) (near Fakse), just on the other side of the Sound, and the place name examples in Skåne and Normandy.
7. Same place names. A study of the place names of Normandy has shown that several names appear to be direct translations of the Danish province until 1650´s Scania/Skåne in the south of Sweden) places, e.g. Yvetot (from Ivetofta) and Bourgebue (from Borgeby). Witch also agrees with Dudo, that they fled to Skåne.
8. Language influence: Here clearly tells the “Old Norse language” article, that the old language of Denmark and most of Sweden also were spoken in some places in the Normandy in its earlier days. It should be noties that the Danes and Norwegians not spoken that same language. Danish and Norwegian/Icelandic was NOT the same language.
9. Saxo: Saxo Grammaticus. Also claim in his Gesta Danorum -wrote about 1185, that Rollo was Danish. (But he properly used some sources from Dudo).
10. Could be a son of Ivar Boneless: "Origin and History of the Montgomerys...", B. G. de Montgomery, (William Blackwood and Sons Ltd, Edinburgh and London, 1948)...pp. 30-32:
The author cites as proof of his contention that Rollo was the son of Ivar. The Dane Ivar the Boneless, who died. 872),” (But i think that is very doubtful.)
11. Invited the major of Fakse: That Rollo had orgin in Fakse, was remembered in Normandy in 1911, when major Haxthausen of Fakse was invited to the to the big Millenium Festivals in Rouen, as a representative of Rollo´s native soil.
Source from the turist/history site of Fakse: http://www.fixfaxe.dk/sevaerd/rollostenen.htm
Here is some qoutes from Dudo of Saint-Quentin´s “De moribus et actis primorum Normannie Ducum”
This one i think many Danish scholar are familiar with:
Just send ambassadors to them to find out what they themselves say." Then Ragnold: "Go swiftly, we pray, to find out their purpose." Anstign replied: "I will not go alone." On the contrary, they sent with him two warriors skillful in the Dacian language. Coming upon the riverbank, they stood still, saying: "Counts of royal power command you to say who you are, and whence you have come, and what you are planning to do." Truly they replied: "We are Danes. Carried here from Dacia (Denmark), we have come to take Francia by assault." Yet they: "What authority does your lord discharge?" They replied: "None, for we men are of equal power."
Here he say that was from Dacia himself, and NOT Iceland.
Read it here. http://www.the-orb.net/orb_done/dudo/11-conquest
more Dudo:
The Franks is at its knees and is forced to make peace with the Danes (Dacians) Rollo will make peace on the condition that he get Carls daughter and the duchy of Normandy. 932 he is baptised and gets the Christian name Robert. Now he rebuild the land and build churches. Five years before his death he gives the throne to his son Wilhelm I. Rollo properly dies in 932.
Vilhelm of Jumièges is a monk from Normandy writed it about 1070. (also before Orkneyinga Saga FROM ICELAND! were writed).
From Vilhelm of Jumièges: Guillaume de Jumièges Gesta Normannorum.
Quote: The father sends him (the son) to the city Bayeux, and gave him to his “commander” to learn Danish (Danica) language. Under the protection of Boso. So he could give his –from the outcountrys, the right answars. [ut ibi lingua eruditus Danica, suis exterisque hominibus sciret apte dare responsa]”
from the same text.
Rollos reputation was so great that king Harald of Denmark (Harald Klak) (Danorum rex) flied to Normandy with 60 ships after his brother Sven had taken the power in Denmark. The mighty and noble duke (Rollo) Received Harald with glory and gave him the province of Coutances until he was strong enough to return and retake the lost realm.
That is also drawed on the The Bayeux Tapestry.
That tells about those who arrived in Normandy were Danes. Harald Klak was also in front in 815, in a big sea battle. When the Franks for the first and only time tryed to invade Jutland, Denmark. There isn´t made a Harald Klak page yet.
>>>>Conclusion: Rollo is from Denmark. -most likely Fakse, Zealand.<<<<
Ofcouse no one can proof anything like we can´t proof that Neil Armstrong was the first man on the Moon. But there is surely alot more proof and give alot more sence that Rollo was from Denmark , and not from a island far away. There is also evidens for that the Danes had conflics with the Francians in that time, and centuries before. Look at Danevirke etc.
In the old town Fakse (Today known as Faxe, after the Faxe brawery) in Zealand, Denmark, ca. 35 km. South-west from Copenhagen. Is there a monument for Rollo. Called Rollostenen (The Rollo stone). Also a School called Rolloskolen (The Rollo school).
The National-museum in Denmark have a temporary exhibition about The Bayeux Tapestry. The exhibition also shows those old founds in Denmark from Normandy. And alot of Anglo-saxon coins (over 30.000 i think). And also cites as proof of it, that Denmark was a big trading partner with Normandy, witch also agrees with Dudo.
http://www.nationalmuseet.dk/sw20385.asp
Read Dudo of St. Quentin's Gesta Normannorum here: http://www.the-orb.net/orb_done/dudo/dudindex.html
--Comanche cph 02:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
No! All this all this is wrong. Rollo of Normandy is a guy named Gange Hrolf from Iceland and he was so big that he couldnt sit on his own horse. ~~ writed by a ingorant Norwegian.
Answar:
The Icelandic Orkneyinga saga is not a strictly historical work. The saga is as much a piece of medieval literature as historical documentation and, written some three centuries after some of the events it records. There is found examples of obviously fictional elements - such as Earl Sigurd's raven banner, the poisoned shirt of Earl Harald, elements of the Hrolf Ganger saga and the foundation of Oslo etc.
You can also see on the Oslo article under history how wrong the Snorre Saga is.
According to the Norse sagas (The Snorre saga), Oslo was founded around 1048 by king Harald Hardråde. Recent archaeological research has uncovered Christian burials from before 1000, evidence of a preceding urban settlement. This called for the celebration of Oslo's millennium in 2000.
This is actually a funny statement as the article contradict it self, and show how ignorant some Norwegians are over for Norwegian History. On the Jelling stones from the late 900´s it say clearly that Harald Bluetooth invaded South Norway (Viken).
And dont forget Harald Bluetooth of Denmark were the one who Christinized the Danes, and proberly also the Norwegians as the founds of Christian burials says. Harald Bluetooth founded Christania (later renamed to Oslo in the 1600´s) in about 950. Viken and more of Norway was properly a Danish Colonial until the Kalmar Union.
--Comanche cph 02:04, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- If you want to be taken seriously, you're not doing yourself any favours here. Your theory about the founding of Oslo seems to be taken out of thin air. Anyway, Oslo was founded with the name Oslo, renamed Christiania in 1624 after king Christian IV of Denmark, then renamed back to Oslo in 1924. You may believe Viken and more of Norway was a "Danish colony" until the Kalmar Union in the late 14th century if you chose to disregard all written sources, including royal letters and sagas of the 13th century describing contemporary events, (Sverris saga, the bagler sagas, Haakon Haakonssons saga) - in short, what you write here is obviously, clearly, factually wrong, so why should anyone put any faith in what you have to say about other matters of Norwegian medieval history? (Barend 15:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC))
I have answered you here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Oslo#Answar_to_Barend --Comanche cph 16:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Some comments: I have to say some of your arguments seem very far fetched. Like the Rollo-stone and the mayor visit. Nobody is contesting that a theory regarding Rollos possible danish origin exists. But along your own rationale you must then recognise the theory of Rollos Norwegian origins on the basis that the city of Rouen gave Ålesund a 2,65 metres tall bronze statue of Rollo in 1911 in order to mark his origins. Inge 21:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I don´t write the Rollo stone as a proof. But why arent you coment all the other proofs???? What source do you have for the Rollo statue in ålesund was a gift from Rouen? You know that many place names a Rouen match Danish place Names.
But anyway, What´s happen 1000 years later, can´t we use as a proof for anything. --Comanche cph 21:57, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
- Nice to see you agree that the Rollo stone is not "proof". It has however been one of your more frequently used arguments. If the place names in Rouen match Danish place names many of them will most likely also match Norwegian and Swedish place names. Well since you have used local tourist pages as references before I hope these web-pages will be acceptable: a Norwegian christian pilgrimage page A tourist information page What happened in 1911 is not proof of what happened in 911, but it is proof that in 1911 the city officials of Rouen believed Rollo was from Møre in Norway.
- Many of your other arguments are circumstantial as well, but the basic argument that a theory excists stating that Rollo might be from Denmark is not under dispute. What is under dispute is that you want to remove the theory that Rollo was Rolf the Ganger. If you want to get that view through you would have to come up with notable references stating that. A published book or a paper from an historian stating that the Norwegian-origin theory is total rubbish. References simply stating the Danish-origin theory is not enough. Inge 14:09, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
-
- Inge wrote: "A published book or a paper from an historian stating that the Norwegian-origin theory is total rubbish."
-
- Ok.
-
- "Göngu-Hrolfs Saga, translated by Hermann Pálsson and Paul Edwards (Edinburgh: Canongate, 1980). Studied at length in Jacob Wittmer Hartmann, The Gongu-Hrólfssaga: A Study in Old Norse Philology (New York: Columbia University Press, 1912). I do not buy the conflation of Rollo and Göngu-Hrolfr."
-
- "Halvdan Koht, “L’oliphant de Rollon,” Normannia 2 (1929): 361-69. Concludes that the oliphant was not, in fact, Rollo’s. D’oh."
-
- I support to original theory to, that Rollo is Danish. That also makes most sense if you look at the hole image of the history between Danes and Franks --Arigato1 00:23, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Im not moving any theory, where do you get that from? But Rollo was not known by any tekst as Hrolf. Only the icelandic saga. So his name on other wiki-pages should either be Rollo or Robert. okay?
Ok, forget the Rollostone, is was not used as a proof, i may delete it! Instend Comment the atleast 10 other sources!
The statue in ålesund was also send to Fargo in USA as a copy. So why and when does the Americans come into this, was he also from America now? I think this make the questian about that gift very distrustful. But anyway. That dosent proof anything, like said before.
The place names was used from Scania, with was they Rollo fleed from with his men. -according to Dudo. And remember that Norway first adopted the Danish language during the Kalmar union in 1300´s to 1800´s, when scholar in Norway learned Danish, instead of the old Norwegian.
All writers from Normandy state that he is Denmark and not the Hrolt Ganger from Iceland. So why should we trust a saga who has been proven with alot of fault and fiction, writed 300 years later?
So in you eyes Dudo of Saint-Quentin, Benoit de St. More and Vilhelm of Jumièges all lived before Snorre, and closer the the events, must be faking??
--Comanche cph 21:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Let's try a vote
As a vote is one of the steps on Wikipedias policy on resolving disputes I would like to suggest one. Add your four~ under the solution you support.
[edit] Include both the theory that Rollo was Rolf the Ganger and the theory that he was a Danish person.
- Inge 13:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Rollo was NOT a Hrolf Ganger, who was so fat that he not could ride on a horse. That theory is based on a saga from Iceland , writed 300 years later. The same saga has been proven, with alot of faults and fictional elements in it. So i will take that source for very doubtful.
But why a vote? What is wrong this, it´s tells about both theorys!
--Comanche cph 14:18, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Comments
Comanche: If you agree that Rollo could have been Rolf the Ganger then why are you still contesting it in other articles? Inge 15:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I do NOT agree with the pro-Icelandic fairytale. But that´s not the issue here. We have a article tells about both theories of the Duke of Normandy. But it seems like many Norwegians in here, like you, don´t wanna accept that. --Comanche cph 16:13, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Only include the theory that Rollo was Danish as all others are rubbish
[edit] Comments
[edit] Dacia
In the article it says Dacia was also used as another name for Denmark. Seems a bit fishy to me. Can anyone confirm or refute this? The Land 20:10, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
- I agree, this is suspicious. As a student, I learned that Dacia was part of the Roman Empire, at its height, in an area roughly corresponding to Romania. It was part of Trajan's empire, but, north of the Danube, it was one of the two earliest large territories (the other being Mesopotamia) which Rome lost before the end of the 2nd century. Without a supporting cite, I propose eliminating this comment. Unschool 03:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
-
- Look it up in any Latin dictionary. Dacia was a medieval latin term for Denmark. See also Dacia (disambiguation) --Barend 16:36, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
