Talk:Runglish

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Runglish? 2 Do you understand Runglish? 3 question? 4 Runglish as pidgin 5 Runglish or Brightoneze 6 Some stuff you might want to put in — OR NOT 7 Not true 8 Translation tag 9 Spoken manner addition? 10 Don't understand this example. 10.1 Still don't understand this example 11 go in for sports

[edit] Runglish?

--130.91.119.63 16:43, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)Runglish?

From my point of view, nowadays we experience a new sociolinguistic situation. Everyday we learn that there appear new 'languages', varieties of THE language, to be precise. Yesterday there were American and British English. Today we learn about Australian, Canadian, etc. Englishes. Tomorrow we will be able to learn Runglish, Chinglish, Frenglish, etc.

What will be the next week? French Frenglish, Belgian Frenglish, and Swiss Frenglish? Or maybe Russian Runglish, Ukrainian Runglish, Belorussian Runglish, Latvian Runglish, and twelve more Runglishes???

On one hand, the more the languages there are the more ways to express ourselves we get. However, what about international communication? The idea of global English creates a good question: If an international language gives birth to new languages and if they happen to become unintelligible one day (we must not deny that there IS such an opportunity!), does the idea of international English make sense? I need your response!

[edit] Do you understand Runglish?

Do you govarite po Runglish? Or do you mozhet bit speak British English? Whatever you do, what do you think of creating space Runglish? It's definitely good for Russian and Russians. But what about English and non-English speakers?

I do, but I don't think a new wikipedia in Runglish (assuming that's what you're proposing) will be either possible or even helpful. Unlike the "real" languages like Spanish and even constructed languages like Esperanto, this is not a language in any real sense. For one, Runglish is mostly a speaking phenomenon; writing Russian using Latin is much more often done for technical than for cultural reasons. That means the target audience for such a wikipedia would be rather limited. IgorSF 10:28, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] question?

what's up with "6. Runglish speakers often say "I like cats..."" is it a joke or what? --130.91.119.63 16:43, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Not at all. This must mean "I'm fond of cats". The same verb for "like", "love", "be fond of": любить. Though there are more precise synonims, this verb is used in the spoken language for all the cases, and this way of thinking reflects in this frase. Ъыь 20:38, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

So what is the difference between "fond of" and "like" anyway? --Theocide 12:00, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Runglish as pidgin

The artice quotes: "there were no significant, sustained English-Russian communities to develop a "true" pidgin". I beg to differ, in Brooklyn NY, there is a community call Brighton Beach where approximately 320,000 russian immigrants reside. They speak English-Russian pidgin on everyday basis. i believe that 320,000 constitutes sufficient population for true pidgin to arise.--Hq3473 07:05, 24 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid you are confusing pidgin with interlanguage. There is a line of development: interlanguage->pidgin->creole, with borderline cases. But Runglish is definitely at the first stage:

• the major difference being absence of deliberate simplification of grammar and vocabulary; so far it is well within the ESL bounds for Brooklyn Russians.
• Second, native English speakers over there normally do not attempt to "pidginize" their speech to make it undertsndable.
• Third, their children (correct me if I wrong) struggle by all means to try and stay away from this "corrupted" language, assuming (IMO correctly) that otherwise they will have problems in their careers, bearing in mind long traditions of over-emphacising of language skills in English-speaking educated society. Mikkalai 21:35, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

let me address these concerns point by point.

• first, I believe runglish spoken in brooklyn is more then simplification of english,it has such features as using russian grammar to form english sentnces(in particular very common is asking a question in english by simply changing intonation), mixing russian and english vocabluary, coining new "runglish" words.
• second, whilte it is true that american brooklyners don't commonly pidegonize their speach, there are some cases when they do. I have personaly witnessed americans mixing in russian curses in english sentnces.
• The children are (as it often happens) bi-dialectical, they can speak clean english, but whne conversing with each other they tend to use runglish on dayly basis.

In conclusion i believe that if Runglish is not a pidgin yet, it is definitely more then interlanguage.--Hq3473 22:21, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I guess, the final answer will be known in 20-30 years :-) Mikkalai 22:47, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

By the way, can you please provide some references to confirm your claims. Otherwise this Brooklyn part may be disqualified as original research. Mikkalai 22:52, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

American-russian This is a pretty comprehensive study of russian-english mixing. Although the point the author is trying to make is different from the one i am trying to make, i belive there is enough evidence in the paper to suggest that the mix of russian and english does create pidgin. You can also refer to a published paper:

"American Russian: Language Loss Meets Language Acquisition". In Wayles Browne et al., eds.
Formal "Approaches to Slavic Linguistics", 370-407. Ann Arbor: Michigan Slavic Publications.

For a more more to the point analysis of russian-english mixing. --Hq3473 05:04, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion on what constitutes a pidgin and an interlanguage. From the way it’s being described, the Brighton Beach situation is most likely a case of code switching (such as is the case with spanglish).

An interlanguage is not the predecessor of a pidgin as pidgins arise when people of numerous (more than two) linguistic backgrounds exist together but don’t have an existing lingua franca to communicate while an interlanguage is either a type of lingua franca or a case of negative transfer of grammatical structure (the latter of which seems to be described heavily in the rest of the article).

I’m not familiar with the situation in Brighton Beach, but others who are may want to consider whether speakers of this Runglish are bilingual, whether the children learn it (or develop it into a creole), and as Mikkalai pointed out if it has some of the features common across all pidgins.--AEuSoes1 06:58, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

I'm not actually from there, but here in California second generation Russian speakers try to speak Russian but Russlish comes out ;D -Iopq 10:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Runglish or Brightoneze

I am a native Russian speaker and lived in South Brooklyn for seven years. The mix of Russian and English ("Kto next?") was called Brightoneze (Braitonskii) by the speakers themselves. So the whole "Runglish" labeling seems a little artificial to me. ImageObserver 20:13, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Some stuff you might want to put in — OR NOT

Here is a Russlish joke (which is called anecdote in Russlish):

-How many hours? -It's three hours. -That is late! -To whom how.

If you translate it into Russian you'll understand ;d

Also, this word will appear in the vocabulary of Russlish speakers: stupaya

Mix of stupid and glupaya

Don't forget mixed prepositions: See that boat on picture? -Iopq 10:23, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I saw a rather elaborate version of this joke some time ago; can't recall it in its entirety, but it ended with "Finished MGIMO? Asks!". Was pretty funny. IgorSF 10:31, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I just found this example in the Russian version of the article. Seems very fitting; I'll put it in. IgorSF 11:22, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The joke "Which watch etc." is borrowed from the movie Casablanca. I am not sure it belongs here. At least, it should be explained. As is, this secton looks silly. Cema 11:06, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not true

Collective nouns take a singular verb in Russian, which can lead to Runglish results like:

This is simply not true--Nixer 21:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

people = народ (narod) in that context. Народ is singular noun.

That's wrong. Russian has the same form like English in that case!

folk = народ which is singular in both languages

people = люди which is plural in both languages as well!!!

people != folk and same in Russian люди != народ

Lefsha 20:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Vam cheesa otslice-it' ili odnym piece-om? (You want [me] to have sliced the cheese or in one piece?)

Navasibirsk State University finisht? Ask! 80.66.66.217 21:02, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

At the same time:

Children = дети (deti) - word is plural.

Not very often I see this error.

Vam cheese po-slice-it ili whole-ym piece-om voz'mete!:)

This is correct, just example in the article wrong. The better example:

"By default _users_ can't access additional functionality of the programm" - "По умолчанию _пользователь_ не имеет доступа к расширенному функционалу программы."

[edit] Translation tag

The article looks fairly clean except for the Spoken Manner section. The statements regarding the Russian language need to be fact checked by a fluent speaker of English and Russian. Kerowyn 08:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm a Russian native speaker with comprehensive knowledge of English. I confirm that that section is correct.

Bad, bed, bat, bet - can sound like "bet" in the worst case. In the best case a Russian native speaker is likely to have problems to pronounce distinctively the vowels: "bad" and "bed". Even more difficult task is to understand what a native English speaker says. For example, guess what I heard once upon a time instead of "fox". :) Ъыь 20:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spoken manner addition?

One thing not in the spoken manner section I have noticed with Russians who speak English is the problem with double-negatives (double, triple, etc. negatives are not only fine but important in Russian, whereas in English double negatives are not allowed in normal speech). I don't claim to be an expert in "Runglish" at all, but it seemed like a somewhat glaring omission? Just a thought which came to mind in looking at the article. --Fastfission 20:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I've added this point to the grammar section. Feel free to restate my text. Ъыь 06:00, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Don't understand this example.

> Though "I haven't seen anybody" in Russian is correct, it's not widely used

In russian it'll be translated with double "no" anyway, I don't see any way to translate this with single "no".

Я никого не видел (Ya nikogo ne videl) / Я не видел никого(Ya ne videl nikogo).

And it's a normal answer, so it's widely used.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Pashator 06:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

You are wrong, not anyway. :) "Anybody" = "кто-либо", "I haven't seen anybody" = "Я не видел кого-либо"

This is an example of usage: я не видел кого-либо подозрительного (I haven't seen anybody suspect.) Ъыь 15:39, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Objected to... Such a phrase would be understood correctly, but you'll hardly find a single Russian speaking this way (instead of double negative "я никого подозрительного не видел"). I'm Russian, living in Russia. ringm 22:19, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree, but then it should be explained in the article with example and again it's a normal sentance, widely used. Pashator 06:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Still don't understand this example

After the last edit, what is currently point 7 in Grammar states this:

Though "I haven't seen anybody" (Я никого не видел) in Russian is correct (or at least would be correctly understood), it's used not often or more particularly (Я не видел никого подозрительного - I haven't seen anybody suspicious), while "I have seen nobody" would be completely incorrect.

First of all, "Я никого не видел" is not a correct translation of "I haven't seen anybody" (this was the latest change by an IP editor). Second, the (English) sentence structure seems (at least to me) somewhat confusing, specifically at the "more particularly" point; although I'm able to understand its meaning, someone without the knowledge of Russian may not. I rewrote this to hopefully change both problems.IgorSF 11:14, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Lefsha 21:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC) I would like to disagree to all of these statements. It's wrong to think that Russians use the double negative form. Cause there is a big difference between "не" and "ни" !!! There is no russian sentence where can you see something like this:

"Я не видел некто" - cause that is real double negative form! Nobody will say it in russian. Comparing this to "Я видел нечто"

The word "никто" оr in genitive form "никого", means "nor anyone" or "nor anybody". So it's only kind of escalating of the meaning. So the correct translation of russian sentence: "Я не видел никого" in English would be "I have not seen even someone." Which is not double negative in both cases. As an example, the longer russian version would be: "Я не видел _ни_ одного человека", which is once again not double negative. And it's totally wrong to say: "Я не видел _не_ человека"

The only problem is, that in russian language is not common to say negative sentence without "ни", because of the different meaning of nobody in english and "некто" in russian. Nobody in english means absence of anybody. "некто" in russian means someone whom you don't know. "нечто" means something you are not familiar with, but not an absence of things (nothing). So there is just no equivalents to such english words like "nobody" or "nothing" in russian. People use different form like "nor anybody" or "absence of even someone"

But it will be always mistaken, to think about double negative form in that case. Even russians are often confusing in use of "не" and "ни". Lefsha 21:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] go in for sports

>to do sport → to go in for sports

Is it really not correct to say "go in for sports", "go in for dancing, playing piano" etc? We've been taught this all the time at school and university. --Anthony Ivanoff 17:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

No; at least, it's not a standard usage in American English. It very well may be standard or at least acceptable in British English though; many of forms we've been taught in Russian schools correspond to British English (my favorite example, for some reason, is flat versus apartment). IgorSF 11:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)