Talk:Ryke Geerd Hamer
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First, I would like to apologize for my poor ("german") English - and I invite everybody to correct my gramar/spelling/whatsoever :-) Second, I would like to say that I am one of the main editors of http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neue_Medizin At the talk page of that German article I found the link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryke_Geerd_Hamer and so came here. Realizing my poor language skills, I will not edit "your" article, but share some ideas on this talk page. Just to make clear from the beginning of this discussion: in my opinion "Germanische Neue Medizin", as Hamer names his strange ideas in german, has nothing to do with medicine - it is just the opposite of medicine. It is an inhumane way of refusing medical treatment, based on pseudo-psychological and pseudo-biological ideas mixed with anti-semitism. But let's have a look on the article:
Ryke Geerd Hamer (born 1935) is a German alternative cancer researcher. He served as head of the internal medicine department at the Clinics of Eberhard Karls University of Tübingen from 1972 to 1981, when he resigned. In this decade he invented and patented some surgery tools.
- Hamer pretends to be a researcher. If you read any of his publications you will find out that this has nothing to do with research.
- I cannot find any proof, that "he served as head of the internal medicine department at the Clinics of Eberhard Karls University of Tübingen". Please check http://www.germannewmedicine.ca/documents/hamerbio.html
(...)
Basically, according to Hamer, any disease, most notably cancer, is not dangerous in itself, but merely a symptom of a mental conflict situation. This conflict needs to be resolved in order for the disease to be cured while the tradititional treatments are not considered as having a primary value.
- The idea of a "mental conflict situation" is just one of Hamers "theory". He also "discovered that every disease originates from a shock or trauma that catches us completely by surprise. The moment the unexpected conflict occurs, the shock strikes a specific area in the brain causing a lesion (later called Hamer Focus) ..." (from: [1]). This sounds a bit different from "mental conflict situation", but this does not disturb a great spirit;-)
(...)
On September 11, 1998 University of Trnava/Slovacia finished an investigation [2] held at the Oncology Division of the Hospital of the University stating that "[...] The object of the investigation was to verify the New Medicine system scientifically. This proved to be the case. [...] there is a high probability that the system is well founded." [3]
- Please read the text of this so-called "investigation" and try not to laugh loudly. It is ridiculous to quote (BTW: incorrectly) such a pamphlet in an encyclopedia.
The conflict between supporters and opponents of Hamer's theories, at the base of which what he calls "biological laws" lays, has become more acrimonious over the years, with Hamer having started to use anti-semitic terminology and claiming that a genocidal Jewish conspiracy wants him silenced. In a similar vein, he has started to call his theoretical groundwork "German New Medicine" (GNM) - a registered trademark - or, in a literal translation from German, "Germanic New Medicine", instead of the formerly-used term "New Medicine".
- I would like to add that in Germany the term "Germanische Neue Medizin" (with it's blind critics of "Schulmedizin") is raising historic parallels: in Nazi-Germany the "Neue Deutsche Heilkunde" was put against the "verjudete Schulmedizin". --RainerSti 13:21, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Dear Rainer ! i agree and I attempted to modify this article to make it more npov. Please register here in the english wikipedia for better comunication. Michael Redecke 18:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Allegations of anti-Semitism
The allegation of anti-Semitism cannot be taken seriously without a source. Which (presumable influential) information outlet has called Hamer's theories "anti-Semitic"? JFW | T@lk 21:06, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- JFW ! The sources are his own words, for instance in his letters he wrote from prison, but also ealier. my English is not good enough for an exact translation. i insert here some links to statements from him in german language that appeared in the internet. Some of his messages published in the german wikipedia by his supporters can not be found any more, because they have be deleted to prevent legal actions against wikipedia. (deleted also in discussion history). I regret for the content.
see this link: http://de.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Diskussion:Neue_Medizin&oldid=4862899
examples found: Some published statements have been deleted by his own supporters in the meantime and can only be found by the archive-service of google.com.
http://www-public.rz.uni-duesseldorf.de/~klostewg/ANTISEMITISCHE-TIRADEN-HAMERS.HTML http://www.neue-medizin.net/hamer-brief-aktuell.html http://www.ansem.de/Hamer-Brief.htm
...Die Anordnung des Weltoberrabbiners haben nicht nur alle Rabbiner der Welt strikt befolgt, sondern alle jüdischen Großlogenmeister der B´nai B´rith haben ihre kleinen Logensklaven Chefärzte und Professoren angewiesen, den Massenmord an den Nichtjuden strikt durchzuführen, sowie alle Chefredakteure von Medien und Fernsehanstalten gezwungen, eine in der Geschichte beispiellose Erkenntnisunterdrückungskampagne gegen die Neue Medizin und speziell gegen meine Person zu führen („Wunderheiler, Scharlatan“) und alle Richter gezwungen, das Verbrechen mitzumachen. Ihren Weltoberrabbiner, den Ihre Freunde ja zeitweilig für den Messias hielten, wird man mal als den schlimmsten leibhaftigen Satan bezeichnen. http://web.archive.org/web/20040307100326/pilhar.com/Hamer/Korrespo/2003/20030103_Hamer_an_Denoun.htm
...Die Rabbinergerichte haben seit 22 Jahren keine Gnade oder Erbarmen gekannt, sie handeln in talmudischem Wahn, wovon sie ihre angebliche Erlaubnis herleiten, alle Menschen, die nicht jüdischen Glaubens sind, umbringen zu dürfen und zu sollen. http://web.archive.org/web/20040307101211/pilhar.com/Hamer/Korrespo/2003/20030423_Hamer_an_Freunde.htm
I do not agree with the content of these links. I publish them here only for scientific use and as source for further research. Redecke 00:33, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Hello JFW, I appreciate very much your asking for serious sources. A a "presumable influential" (but of course strongly critizised by GNM-friends) source I would mention Deutsche Krebsgesellschaft (German Cancer Society). In http://www.krebsgesellschaft.de/pressemeldung_liste_aktuell,9935.html (visited 2005-07-14 22:20:53) I read:
(...) Hamer und Antisemitismus: In den Schriften von Hamer tritt eine eindeutige antisemitische Haltung zutage. Ursprünglich wurde die Theorie von Herrn Hamer unter dem Begriff "Neue Medizin" verbreitet. Neuerdings wurde eine begriffliche Veränderung in "Germanische Neue Medizin" vorgenommen. Zur Begründung verweist Hamer in im Internet zugänglichen E-Mails auf die stolze Tradition des germanischen Volkes der Dichter und Denker, der Musiker und Entdecker, aus dem Dr. Hamer stamme. Auch wolle er seinen Gegnern zuvorkommen, die "stehlen wie die Raben", so dass am Ende "dieses wunderbare Göttergeschenk [die GNM] dann vielleicht jüdische Neue Medizin" hieße. Weiter führt Hamer aus: " Es ist doch so: Die jüdische Religion teilt bekanntlich alles ein in gutartig u. bösartig, so auch in der jüdischen sog. Schulmedizin. Wir Nichtjuden werden gezwungen, weiterhin die jüdische Schulmedizin zu praktizieren mit Chemo, Morphium....- die die Juden selbst aber seit 20 Jahren nicht mehr praktizieren." (www.AGPF.de/Hamer.htm). An anderer Stelle wird die absurde Behauptung aufgestellt, dass Juden sich nach der "Germanischen Neuen Medizin" behandeln ließen und deshalb Krebs zu 98% überlebten, während 95 % der schulmedizinisch Betreuten daran stürben. Diese Sätze entlarven sich selbst als klarer, dumpf-dümmlicher Antisemitismus.
There are several hints for a paranoid affection (I'm not sure, if this is correct english), and therefore I am not sure, if Hamer's anti-semitic outlets would really be understood as such by court. Please make your own conclusions. --RainerSti 08:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] rv feb 1, 2006
Hamer has never published in a scientific way. Side effects of cancer treatments are often dangerous, but at the same time they offer a real chance for any patient. A spontaneous remission is a very rare situation (1 case out of 50000-100000). And: wikipedia is not the place for opinions ( ... society is not ready for his theories...) Redecke 23:41, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
- As far as I understood Hamer's theory, his special psychotherapy triggers the procedures that lead to "spontaneous remission". There is no evidence, that psychiatric conditions are not correlated with tumor events. But there is a scandinavian study, that shows that the diagnosis depression is not correlated with the diagnosis breast cancer, which is exactly what Hamer predicts, since in his theory psychiatric diagnosis and oncological diagnosis is just the open visible manifestation of the deeper psychological problem, and that different patients show different manifestations. By the way: What does "society is not ready for his theories" mean? They dont deserve them or what? At least I would need a thorough study about the life expectancy of patients who chose Hamer's therapy concept, before I can believe one side or the other... --213.54.79.116 09:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] POV? Trivia? NPOV? Important fact?
Since when do we talk here about
- guardianship court's patients?
- un-mature patients?
- Hamer approaching a patient himself?
- uninformed patients (where did they get the initial diagnose?)?
I think it is very very important to see, that the patients of Hamer are not forced by him, but that they decide according their own free will to reject the universitary medicine! Furthermore there are cases of suicide after the diagnose "cancer" was learned, so that rejecting universitary medicine is nothing special and nothing Mr. Hamer can do about. Thanks! --213.54.79.116 08:33, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
- the content of this article should not be based on webpages of a sect. the final judgments of several courts concerning hamer are clear. Redecke 13:10, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
-
- Did he use his patented psycho-manipulator or what? --213.54.79.116 15:31, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] edits by user Ekem
- Hamer is a former physician, now living in spain.
- Dirk-Hamer-Syndrome. About this syndrome nothing is know for sure.
Ekem wrote: (i cite)...The effect on the brain can be demonstrated by MRI where a specific focal alteration (Hamer's focus, or “Hamerscher Herd”) is apparent....this is not true, even from the POV of hamers supporters because they claim that such a DHS should always be visibile in CT brain scans, but not in any MRI. It is a fact that hamer never tried to prove his CT ring artefacts by comparing them to any MRI scan. I worked (after my study of human medicine) in radiology several years, and i know these ring artefacts very well. I worked also with a Somatom of Siemens. Ring artefacts can occur in older ct scanners if:
- the calibration procedure at the beginning of operation was not done
- one or several sensors are not working properly
- an if in different scans, these rings are seen in different positions
a CT scan showing an alleged DHS can be seen here on a private webpage of a Hamer supporter: http://www.pilhar.com/Hamer/Korrespo/2005/20050808_Beisswenger_GlaubeWissenWeisheit.htm Siemens (manufacturer of the CT scanner Somatom, popular here in Germany over many years, wrote a paper about how to identify ring artefacts. One (out of many) sign is the fact that in ring artefacts you will always see perfect concentring rings. The paper can be seen here: http://www.pilhar.com/Hamer/NeuMed/Zertif/891222og.htm
the CT brain scan shows exactly these concentric ring artefacts. Another page telling us about ring artefacts is this one: http://www.medcyclopaedia.com/library/topics/volume_i/r/ring_artefact/gring_artefact_fig1.aspx?s=ring%20artefact&scope=&mode=1 Michael Redecke 14:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- I have zero arguments with any changes that keep the article objective. I would think, however, that he is a physician, because he graduated and the University has not revoked his degree. My changes stated clearly that the court revoked his licence to practice, but there is no evidence that his "Doctor of Medicine" degree has been revoked. Regarding the "Hamer's focus" I was simply trying to present Hamer's thesis. Is it necessary to inject in each sentence some qualifier? The removal of the reference to Hamer's focus omits now valuable information. Let us put this back and make sure that the language indicates that their presence is controversial. I believe that this is better than omitting information.Ekem 14:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
- again, you inserted an error. please show any MRI showing one of these DHS. Hamer and his supporter clearly mean CT-scans, and not MRI-scans ! Please check your edits before inserting them, we need more precision in this article. you did not read my comments or you are ignoring them (and also the claims of Hamer himself). These DHS do not exist simply, they are artefacts (i recognized them immediately, remembering them from my time in radiology), you may also take a look at the paper: [2] in which we read: ...the hamer foci on the ct images in hamers books have been identified by radiological experts as typical artefacts produced by the radiological device which can appear in a poor-quality ct scan...In Germany people with a certain amount of jail-time loose automaticly their right to use their title, i agree with the word banned. I don't know the situation in US or England. Michael Redecke 15:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
ABOUT VERIFICATION. Fist at all, my english is not good, and will try to my best. When Dr. Hamer present his hipotesis on the University he worked, these hipotesis never were verified as correct or incorrect because Univerty rejected the verification. So, if something is incorrect, well, it must be verified at begining. Besides, there are a lot of no proved theories on actual oncology therapy. The most important of theme is METASTASIS. Metastasis has NEVER been prooved sciencely but it's used as universal truth. There a lot of not proved theories that actual Medicine uses as true althougt these one are never been proved in a science procedure. I understand this doesn't mean that Hamer is correct, but means that actual MODEL of medicine has to be reevaluated. Well soory about my english. Later I will try writing a better letter. V.C.
[edit] links
- http://www.ariplex.com/ama/amamiche.htm
- http://www.healthwatcher.net/Quackerywatch/New-Medicine/index.html
[edit] Hamer's own cancer and death of his son Dirk
Hamer said: ...Wie ich heute weiß, erlitt ich damals einen Verlustkonflikt mit Hodenkrebs. Damals kannte ich jedoch diese Zusammenhänge noch nicht, sondern vermutete nur, dass meine Hodenschwellung, die ich 2 Monate nach dem Tode meines Sohnes Dirk spürte, irgend etwas mit seinem Tod zu tun haben müsste... (http://www.neue-medizin.de/html/ein_vermachtnis.html) Hamer tells on his own webpage that he felt the first symptoms of his cancer two month after the death of his son. This is of cource a clear evidence that there is no rational link between these two events. Redecke 15:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Hamer scalpel" story
According to the german newspaper "Der Stern", the Hamer-scalpel was indeed invented and costly pateted woldwide by RG Hamer. The money for the development came from investors. The german company Kienzle wanted to produce this battery-operated knife. But tests revealed that this scalpel was not "atraumatic" at all: it produced even large lesions when it was used "in curves", it did not work better than a normal scalpel. The investors asked therefore their money back and Hamer had to sign a "affidavit of means" because he could not pay back the money. According to the newspaper article, he left Germany for Italy because of his financial problems in Germany. Reference: Der Stern, november 24, 1983. Authors Teja Fiedler and Cordt Schnippen. Faxsimile can be seen here: http://www.ariplex.com/agb/a70205/stern_3.jpg Redecke 00:43, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Hamer scalpel" story BUT why remove the link?
Thanks for your article, but why do you remove the link which reference that exists this " not "atrumatic " " scalpel. It is a reference, and if it isn't some bad-intentional persons could put it away because "it has none reference". A put it back.
- Dear IP ! You inserted several times a link to a company that allegedly sells a "Hamer scalpel". Why do you do that ? We do not know the date of this list, we do not know if this scalpel is still sold, and it is not a reference to your assertion (without any reference) that this scalpel should be less traumatic than others. the link you inserted is a reference that this scalpel was existing or still exists. But nothing more. Michael Redecke 16:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] External references based on ad hominems and insults statements and ad hominem justification
I have removed this external reference:
It is based on ad hominens and insults about Germanic New Medicine. Please, take a look on this "reference" ans his "serious" approach. I believed that what you has written is enough justification for the removing: "...sites about charlatanism and quackery"
The part above is not by me and it is not signed. So I drew a line to separate.
The person with the IP "190.64.83.98" in a salami tactic repeatedly cuts out pieces he does not like and puts in pieces in favor of Hamer. We know that Hamer followers commit large-scale vandalism in forums and guest books. From what I see done by IP "190.64.83.98" I come to conclusion that this person believes himself to do it more cleverly than the other vandals. But it still is vandalism.
"Wehrhafte Medizin!" indeed is one of the large international sites about charlatanism and quackery. And it is the number one site about Hamer and his followers and about the crime they commit. No wonder the Hamer death sect does not like it.
But facts are facts - and all on that site about Hamer is proven by pieces of proof. The site is backed up with a huge data base to supports justice offices and journalists.
Zo'orIon 21:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Histeric and Exaggerating people
As We:. can see, you seem completely Histeric. The Justice has put Hamer in Jail because his crimes, and now he is free because J:.ustice too. It means that Justice has spoken and has done. So Ryke Hamer has already paid his crimes acording to the LAW, that is what's matter, no simples peoples OPINIONS. And just now we learned using wikipedia's editing discussions tools, maybe you could thought that, instead of "vandalism act". It seems that Hamer's oppossitors are more paranoid that Hamer's followers. You behavior can make people think that we, the neutral people who try neutraly to put information about Hamer's crimes are so fanatic as you.
The part above is not by me and it is not signed. So I drew a line to separate.
Comments like the one above we see day for day. They mainly consist of primitive and foul retoric and plain lies. It is not a "privilege" of the Hamer scene to use them. It is normal esoteric hogwash rhetoric. You find it everywhere.
One of the lies is to declare plain facts as OPINIONS (see the stressed word above). By this all unwanted real facts are shoved away. And at the same time EVERYTHING unwanted is falsely supressed as "opinions". And at the same time all the claims of the very esoteric proponent are either levered up as being facts or (at least) as discussible opinions. Discussion about opinion is free. The right of free speach rules.
In this way utmost stupidity is made a discussible part of life (even if hundreds of people die because of it [as is in the case of Hamer's madness], whilst even simplest scientific knowledge is suppressed as ONLY being "opinions", "opinions these guys can have, but we don't have to care about".
The web site where I took the links from is teaching rhetoric analysis. No wonder why the esoterics and other charlatans and quacks do not like it. No wonder why the links were taken out and are defamed as being "spam".
The esoterics and other charlatans and quacks are easily to detect. Their language is foul stench.
Zo'orIon 19:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
