Template talk:Scottish Monarchs

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Contents 1 Between Charles I and Charles II 2 Monarchs of England and Ireland 3 Edits by Me 4 "Covenanters" 5 Use of Gaelic 6 Incorrect line?

[edit] Between Charles I and Charles II

Somethings needs to go here if the First Interregnum and Second Interregnum are also listed. Whilst Scotland came under the governance Commonwealth of England for a good deal of this time, it would surprise me if either this or the English Interregnum is the common Scottish name for this period. Is it called the Third Interregnum? Greenshed 22:44, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Monarchs of England and Ireland

Currently, † is being used to indicate people who were also monarch of England, and * for Ireland. However, those are the same people – everyone on this list who was monarch of England was also monarch of Ireland. May I propose we consolidate the two symbols to a single one? 24.21.178.83 03:52, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

• I have changed the template per your request. Philip Stevens 05:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by Me

I added the Pictish monarchs, as the emerging historical consensus is that there is no dividing lines between "Scotland" and "Pictland", being essentially the same kingdom; the idea of a brake being much later propaganda issued by the descendents of Cináed mac Ailpín. I also put the word "Alba" in brackets next to Scotland. The reason isn't nationalism, but because the term "Scotland" is much later than the earliest kings of "Scotland", and Alba was the name for both Pictland and Scotland, and remains to this day the Gaelic name for the country. I also piped some of the links, and the reason for this to achieve orthographic consistency not currently existent in the wikipedia names. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 17:31, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Covenanters"

Does it make sense to list them as though they formed a proper head of state? It was my understanding that they recognized Charles II as succeeding Charles I in January 1649, although they did not actually allow him to come to Scotland and be crowned until he agreed to their terms. Might it make more sense, since this is a list of Scottish monarchs, and not of Scottish regimes, to simply follow Charles I by Charles II, and ignore the Interregnum? john k 17:32, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

On that basis, the template should list Murdoch and Robert Stewart, who ruled the country as governors during the minority and exile of James I. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:20, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Gaelic

This template needs to be returned to full English names- it is not acceptable to pipe English links with Gaelic. Any opinions? Astrotrain 14:07, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's appropriate. It's an issue of accuracy and orthographic consistency. Some may oppose this on wiki grounds, but to those like yourself who oppose it on anti-Gaelic grounds, let me inform you that Malcolm is still a Gaelic name whether render "Malcolm", "Máel Coluim" or "Maol Chaluim", as is Kenneth whether rendered as Cináed or Kenneth (no Ks in any insular language before the Normans), likewise Duncan, Donald, etc. And I don't see any argument for trying to get rid of the bracketed "Alba". Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Even if Gaelic were spoken by more than 1% of the Scottish population, this would not be relevant. This is the English wikipedia, and we should not be piping links to a Gaelic name. It is not about being anti-Gaelic (for example, according to policy, it is acceptable to state the Gaelic place names, or for offical bodies that use Gaelic such as the Parliament)- however to force Gaelic across the Wiki is unacceptable and against policy. Astrotrain 14:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

What has the percentage of modern Gaelic speakers got to do with anything? Those kings have culturally little to do with modern Scotland, which is almost totally anglicized. Not being anti-Gaelic would be believable if you were John Kenney or someone, but all you do on Wikipedia is POV push against Gaelic, so we know fine well why you are here. The piped names are a subjective issue. Some prefer accuracy and orthographic consistency to anglicization and modernization, both of which in the context mislead. Still don't see any argument for trying to get rid of the bracketed "Alba". Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 14:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

It is not POV to implement existing WP policy- ie not to use foreign languages inappropiately. I would say piping the links to force Gaelic through (when your attempts to Gaelicise the article names themseleves was defeated) is more POV. Astrotrain 15:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, of course you would say that. Am I supposed to be suprised? If you knew anything about "WP Policy", i.e. WP guidelines, you'd know that there are many and conflicting guidelines designed only to be applied with some thought. Regards, Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 15:16, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear Astrotrain, your edits mean that we have two Kenneth Is and two Kenneth IIs on the template. Anyway, if you're going to insist on anglifying names, why are there only two Pictish Kenneths when there should be three (well, four really, but leave that for now)? And you missed a Constantine. Can we expect Áed to be renamed Hugh? Drusts to be renamed Tristans? Eoganán to be renamed John? I suppose it's just as well I never made a King of Dál Riata template thingy. For all that you're het up about it, four of these articles got tagged as GAs with Gaeliform names throughout (except for the usual "anglicised X" where applicable). I find it unlikely that the editors who reviewed them were closet Gaelic-pushers. During the page naming fracas, the articles looked almost exactly the way they do today, yet nobody remarked upon it that I recall. Could it possibly be that nobody but you really gets het up about this? Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I only removed pipes from English names to Gaelic names. I didn't rename the Kings already listed under a Gaelic name (although this should be done). Whatever the merits of using the names- this is the English language wikipedia, and only English should be used (although citing of Gaelic names would be allowed in some circumstances), and at the end of the day only 60,000 people actually speak this dead language. Astrotrain 23:11, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The language these names are written is dead, just like the one Gaius Julius Caesar's name is written in. Well, even deader than that since some very small number of whackos speak Latin for fun. Máel Coluim is not Gaelic. Really. Some of the other ones are close to Gaelic, none are identical. These names are Old Irish, or rather they are the standardised language that is used to represent Old Irish names in modern printed works. There's no more ulterior motive to preferring these versions thatt there is in preferring Æthelfrith (as I do), or even Æþelfriþ (but the the use of eth and thorn strikes me as twee), to Aethelfrith. Indeed, if there were a some sinister political motive, it would have been better served by the versions which existed before Calgacus and I got started, the versions which presented Scotland as existing in unchanging glory since 843 or thereabouts. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:36, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The argument for using the Gaelic rendering of names would imply that the names of New Testament people should be rendered in עברית (Hebrew) or should that be ܐܪܡܝܐ (Aramaic)? Admittedly the first version of the New Testament was in Κοινὴ Ἑλληνική so perhaps that language should be used. At the moment they seem to have English renderings. What do all the cunning linguists think?

84.135.196.115 17:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

In this qustion, I agree mostly with Astrotrain. I find it odd that the only name forms we would see in this list, would be Old Irish. Not exactly all the names are to be anglicized (Aedh probably is good example of such), but most are to. My view is that we should put all names in their anglicized version, if a Gaelic/Irish name form is not common in English texts (= if anglicized version is common in English texts). Then, we could add, in parentheses, the Gaelic name as (and if) it was used by the monarch and of him when he was living (this is an optional extra, but I would not happily agree to take the Gaelic versions totally out from here). In those exceptional cases where an Old Irish or Gaelic name is common in English literature and not the anglicization (= situation where anglicization feels odd to anglophones themselves), it should not be anglicized (but anglicized one could and probably should be given in the article itself). Voilá, results will be something like:

• Malcolm II (Mael Choluim)
• Robert II (Raibeart)
• Aedh.... and so forth

Let me repeat and clarify: it is height of foolishness to put these lists to display only Gaelic/ Old Irish name versions, as mostly they are unrecognizable to almost every reader, except experts. Shilkanni 00:47, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I have to say that I'd be utterly opposed to "Robert II (Raibeart)"; as somebody likely said already, this isn't the Scots Gaelic Wikipedia. As for the rest, I just the write the content. So long as the articles don't incorporate antiquarian anglicised twaddle, it seems that I'll have to be content with the titles, and now the templates, doing so. Suit yourself. Angus McLellan (Talk) 01:59, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, that comes across rather more snippy than I had intended. Let's just say: no to Gaelic names after Domnall Bán, and if I haven't convinced anyone to use them for supposed "kings of Scots" before Duncan II, go ahead and change the template. Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:04, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm for the use of native names for all kings with native names. I suppose the matter is no more than one of subjective preference ... some users prefer modern forms, others prefer native forms; but there is not so much consensus here that either view can predominate, which clearly points to some form of compromise. Angus and I have both spent a lot of time reading texts were these names are used and have grown used to them, so we both have a that perspective. Don't really agree with Angus (following Duncan?) that Máel Coluim IV should be an exception, and I certainly don't think Donnchad II should be (the latter just baffles me). A.A.M. Duncan had the highly flawed view that modern name forms in the English language somehow correspond with contemporary French forms, but if you look at contemporary forms of the names, this simply is not true. Names like Máel Coluim, Donnchad and Domnall were not English or French names, and never had one form in this period; Malcolm, Duncan and Donald would have been more foreign to the ears of, say, William Rufus or Henry I, than Máel Coluim, Donnchad or Domnall would have been, as he at least would have heard the latter. And for example, later medieval non-Gaels recognized the name we now call Donald more usually as Dovenald. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 18:35, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm also for the use of native names especially for for New Testament people with native (Aramaic) names. I suppose the matter is no more than one of subjective preference ... some users prefer modern forms, others prefer native forms. Do you think I could gain enough consensus so that my view will predominate? Surely Jesus would have been more foreign to the ears of, say,הוֹרְדוֹס, than ܝܫܘܥ or Yeshua. Do you think I have any chance of persuading people to accept the native names or should I just bully and cajole them into doing so while at the same time claiming it to be compromise?

84.135.250.141 18:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, you have a point, but if everyone does their own thing we get chaos, so someone (Shilkanni in this case) has to play policeman. However, since next to nobody edits the articles in question, I'm not convinced that it is a big deal. As a general rule (*cough*), rules are for other people. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:03, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

So if I can get the policeman Shilkanni onside, which would seem easy enough since he seems to have sided with the Old Irish forms of names even though he suggested it is height of foolishness to put these lists to display only Gaelic/ Old Irish name versions, as mostly they are unrecognizable to almost every reader, except experts. Since I am also intending to abandon my real life, become a geeky nerd, and take up permanent residence in Wikipedia I will simply dismiss such concerns along with my schoolgirl experiences of the likes of Macbeth - now an expert's Mac Bethad, Kenneth MacAlpin - now an expert's Cináed mac Ailpín and Malcolm Canmore - now an expert's Máel Coluim mac Donnchada, all strangely redirected to pages with lay titles but expert's names in the articles. In my endevour to become an elistist pedant with a paraphilic, esoteric fetish for all things Aramaic - as opposed to all things Goidelic - I seek your support. Please join my coterie of revisionists, though I must insist we will not be negationists. Some have suggested I may be suffering from paraphilia but that is simply not true. Those New Testament people deserve to have their native names used. Who is brave enough to join me? We know what's best, as you say, rules are for other people.

84.135.246.25 15:46, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect line?

Is it just me or is the "* Status as King doubted" line just hanging around? I can't see any examples using it. Valentinian ^{T / C} 00:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

You're right. So be bold and remove it! – DBD 10:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Done. I just expected that somebody had erased the relevant reference by error. Anyway, it is gone now. Valentinian ^{T / C} 12:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)