Talk:Simele massacre

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Assyria, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of Assyrian-related topics. If you would like to participate, or visit the project page.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Top	This article has been rated as top-importance on the project's importance scale.

An entry from Simele massacre appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on January 11, 2006.

Simele massacre was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake. Date of review: 27 Feb 2007

[edit] Title

I've moved this page to Simele massacre because it gets the higest amount of Google hits - 118, and even one hit at Google books. Wikipedia policy says that we should have titles at the most common name for something. That's why we have the article at Kishinev pogrom, and not "Chişinău pogrom". Same reason for Great Fire of Smyrna as well. —Khoikhoi 04:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! Chaldean 19:10, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

This article has been reviewed against the good article criteria and has failed. This is mainly because the article needs more references, better NPOV and should be better written. The complete review is below.

Well Written: FAIL

• Your Government of Iraq wikilink goes to the Ba'athist and Allied occupation page - a page which makes no mention of government before Saddam. Remove it or link to a more relevant page. - done
• The article is disjointed, commas are used too often. A few examples:

public animosity towards the Assyrians was ‘fever heat’, as American representative Paul Knabenshue was quoted - Why not say "the American representative in Iraq described public animosity towards the Assyrians was at 'fever heat', or not even name him and just cite the source

Mar Shimun would eventually be exiled to Cyprus, thus forcing the head of the Assyrian Church of the East to be located in Chicago, to this day. - Get rid of the comma between "Chicago" and "to this day". - done

• The list of 54 villages adds nothing to the article. Either leave in two or three of the biggest, or else cut them out entirely and leave only the statement In the end, around 63 Assyrian villages were targeted in the Simele area - referenced, of course. - done

Factually Accurate and Verifiable: FAIL

• Iraqi Independence and crisis section does not contain enough references. The entire passage about the plan and motivations of Mar Eshai Shimun XXIII is entirely uncited.
• In Baghdad, the government panicked, fearing disaster as the Assyrians presented a formidable fighting force that could provoke a general uprising in the north. The government unleashed Kurdish irregulars who killed some 120 inhabitants of two Assyrian villages in the week of August 2 to August 9 (with most of the massacre occurring on August 7). Then on August 11, a march to what was then one of the most heavily inhabited Assyrian area in Iraq, the Simele district, led by Kurdish general Bakr Sidqi (who had clashed with Assyrians before). - No references there at all - rectify this.
• The Assyrian population of the district of Simele was indiscriminately massacred; men women, and children. - That is unreferenced, and without a citation both unverfiable and a point of view.
• Holy books were used as fuel for burning girls. Children were run over by military cars. Pregnant women were bayoneted. Children were flung in the air and pierced on to the points of bayonets. - Again, no citation. History can still be inflamatory, it does not lose that just because it is in the past. You must be careful to reference most statements in a case such as this, otherwise you will be falling foul of both NPOV and verification rules.
• Last paragraph of the Aftermath section is entirely unreferenced. The first half of that section's first paragraph is also in need of citations.

Broad: PASS

• The article is suitably broad in scope.

NPOV: FAIL

• You have to be really careful with a subject like this. Wikipedia rules forbid words like "massacre" at all unless that is the name by which the event is most commonly known - which in this case it is. However, that does not mean that you can write the rest of the article in that vein.
• The government unleashed Kurdish irregulars making the Kurds sound like dogs is not NPOV.

Stable: PASS

• The article is not the victim of ongoing edit wars

Pictures: FAIL

• Fair use images are used.

Chrisfow 18:11, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Biased and false anfo

Hi. The article contains a lot of of false information, with either misquoting or biased references. It is heavily one-sided in favour of Assyrian party. Please corret it. Abrhamon 16:32, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Please state what parts are false. This article is indeed very well sourced and they can't be biased refernces, since they are third-party accounts (non-Assyrian, non-Arab/kurdish). Its silly to suggest refences such as "International Federation for Human Rights " as being baised. Chaldean 16:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

After I wrote my comment above, that this article contains lots of false info, I noticed that someone alse before me has noticed this and he has elaborateed weaknesses of the article. Moreover, I think it is silly to use good sources but misquote them! and this means to fabricate nonsense but represent a link as a source while the source really does not mention anything like what has been claimed in the article. One more thing: AINA is not third party! Abrhamon 16:48, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it is silly to use good sources but misquote them - Please dont just STATE, but PROVE. One more thing: AINA is not third party! - AINA is used once to state the name of the villages. I dont think this is a violation of NPOV. Chaldean 16:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I already told you that another user has elaborated weaknesses of the article before me. For example I did not find the page which talks about massacres in the link provided.

and it is not just AINA, much of links are from Assyrian blogs. Abrhamon 17:02, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Your going in circles. The peer-review by user Chrisfow mentioned a few sentences, not questioning the whole article (like you claiming.) Assyrian blogs? Here are the refences;

• a b c d International Federation for Human Rights — "Displaced persons in Iraqi Kurdistan and Iraqi refugees in Iran", 2003.
• "The Origins and Developments of Assyrian Nationalism", Committee on International Relations Of the University of Chicago, by Robert DeKelaita 1
• Joseph Yacoub, La question assyro-chaldéenne, les Puissances européennes et la SDN (1908–1938), 4 vol., thèse Lyon, 1985, p. 156.
• a b c d Iraq Between the Two World Wars: The Militarist Origins of Tyranny, Reeva S. Simon, 2004.
• http://www.nestorian.org/nestorian_patriarchs.html
• Majed Eshoo, "The Fate Of Assyrian Villages Annexed To Today's Dohuk Governorate In Iraq"
• Colonel Stafford of the British Army testimony [2]
• The Ottoman Peoples and the End of Empire, by Justin MacCarthy 3
• Minorities in the Middle East: a history of struggle and self-expression By Mordechai Nisan
• Good Morning Assyria, Zinda Magazine.
• Premtad Seemel, Shlemon Bet Shmuel.
• William Saroyan, "Seventy Thousand Assyrians," in William Saroyan, The Daring Young Man on The Flying Trapeze and Other Stories. New York: New Directions, 1934
• Seventy Thousand Assyrians, William SAROYAN, WikiQuotes.
• Raphael Lemkin — EuropeWorld, 22/6/2001.

Where are "Assyrian blogs"? Your losing credibility. Moreover, I think its amusing you creating a username to just talk about this issue. Chaldean 17:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm a random user, just reading this article by accident. It is not important whether I lose credibility or not, It is important that this website, Wikipedia, should not be misused. I asked you where [International Federation for Human Rights] talks abot Simele fighting of Iraq and Syrian refugees, but you did not answer. I think I have the permission to add citiation tags. Abrhamon 17:21, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

I find it hard to believe you being a randum reader when you question AINA's credibility, like many Kurds do. In regards to "International Federation for Human Rights" - this source was used 5 times; [[1]] please read page 17. Chaldean 17:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok now I see what you were talking about. Some of the references were screwed up. The reference "name" was being mistaken for another one. Please see this edit - [2]Chaldean 15:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)