Talk:Special relationship
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[edit] Good article, but resembles personal journalism
Hmm...interesting and hugely important article; very well written. The nature and political importance of the US-UK 'Special Relationship', especially in the context of recent World events, is certainly worthy of substantial and accurate coverage in Wiki. However, I've thought a bit about this and have concluded that this particular treatment often resembles a piece of personal journalism rather than an encylopedia entry. No references are provided in support of subjective statements. I've removed some of the more egregious assertions, but a radical re-think is needed IMHO to separate fact from subjective/personal commentary.
AntsWiki 02:10, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- Well obviously I don't entirely agree with you since I wrote a fair percentage of this article (all compliments, however, gratefully accepted, ta). The stuff about publicity seemed more appropriate at the start of the war but really the British contingent in Iraq is so small relative to the American deployment that it does seem like something of a beard, which is one of the reasons so many people in Britain are against it. It sometimes feels like our troops are in harm's way in Iraq just so the president can go on television and talk about the coalition of the willing.
- That aside (oops, there I go again) if you would care to cite some more examples of my subjectivity I'd be delighted fix them. Or probably to argue about it a bit more and then fix them. But that's half the fun. Or indeed to suggest better ways of organising the page or whatever. I'm very keen for this article to be as good as it can be. I was quite miffed (though also rather busy) when it was cited for cleanup and I want to improve it.
- --Mr impossible 12:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
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- The article is a lot better than when I last looked. Thanks!
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- The subject matter is difficult and contentious and so much more to add.
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- I heard an interesting BBC Radio 4 programme recently which described Nuclear Weapons Development. It seems that the Brits conned/hoodwinked the USA into believing that the UK had developed a thermo-nuclear device. But what they did was explode the largest A-bomb ever. The USA thought it was an H-Bomb and told the Brits the secrets.
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- --Dumbo1 02:15, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hallo! All I have time to do at the moment is to draw attention to the Wiki ethos of NPOV - an injunction of which I was unaware till only the other day. It makes perfect sense in a specific Wiki context and so I was glad to discover it because it lends weight to my earlier objections apropos skewed treatment. Certainly, your article is worthy of much more time on the part of people like me who would like to collaborate with you. For a start, unattributed statements in the article such as the now deleted: "That the United States does sometimes need Britain - albeit principally for the purposes of publicity..." is a purely subjective, possibly personal (even offensive) opinion. Similarly, "The relationship is supposedly based on cultural and historical ties..." Again: "Britain will continue to cleave to US policy even to the detriment of its own short term political interests in order to reinforce this central tenet of British foreign policy in the longer term". If you are quoting a newspaper or commentator, a citation should be produced, otherwise what you state is merely a POV, which might be OK if you happen to be a known expert, with credentials, but for all the reader knows (and remember, Wikipedia is supposed to provide FACTS) you could be a London taxi driver! Haha! Maybe a solution would be to insert quotations and authorities, from ALL points of view in order to provide balance, to leave the reader to make their own minds up, instead of steering them towards a particular conclusion? Am I making any sense?
I'll be back :)
AntsWiki 00:13, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Special relationship vs. Anglo-American relations
There is a need for this page, but there is also a need for a page on Anglo-American relations. Some of what is in this page should be moved over. The "Special Relationship" is a political and media phenomena which is referred to in Britain. There is also the real more economic, social, military and cultural links that I would have thought belonged in Anglo-American relations.
--Dumbo1 22:46, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- Agreed, and so I started the separate page Anglo-American relations a couple months ago. Some of the content in this article should be moved there. The "special relationship" is not synonymous with Anglo-American relations. The "special relationship" is that part of Anglo-American relations which is cordial and warm; the term "special relationship" emphasizes the positive aspects of relations between the two countries. —Lowellian (talk) 15:13, Jun 14, 2005 (UTC)
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- The term "Special relationship", in international affairs, pretty much always means the Anglo-American relationship. On the same vein, however, I'm unsure the US relationship w/ Israel can be put on nearly the same level; That relationship has always been far, far, far more distant, cold, and stand-offiish. --Penta 1 July 2005 05:04 (UTC)
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- Also agree with you that "special relationship" is almost invariably used to describe the Anglo-American relationship. I'm confused by your comment's relevance to the earlier comments and why it's under this heading. The comments above do not make the claim that the "special relationship" is used to describe the Israeli-US relationship. The point that I was trying to make, and that I think Dumbo1 was also trying to make, is that "special relationship" describes one aspect—the positive, friendly one—of Anglo-American relations, and that some of the information in this article is more appropriate for the Anglo-American relations article. —Lowellian (talk) July 2, 2005 23:16 (UTC)
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- This is purely political. If anyone thinks America and Britain have the closest relationship in the world, they must be mad. England has a closer relationship even with Australia! and America with Canada. America and Britain fear each other, not love each other. Wallie 12:53, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
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- Well it is an article about diplomatic relations so it is going to be political. I think the point , as described above, is that this is a term used by diplomats from both countries. Whether it is the "closest relationship in the world" is fairly irrelevant as it is useful for both countries to describe their relationship thus. I don't know that they fear each other either, I think the relationship is probably better defined as complete incomprehension of the other's motives. On a slightly different note, please don't use England interchangeably with Britain as you'll irk a lot of Scots, Welsh and N. Irish that way! Leithp 17:40, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Non-neutral sentence?
What's with this:
"Britain will continue to cleave to US policy even to the detriment of its own short term political interests in order to reinforce this central tenet of British foreign policy in the longer term."
Whoever wrote that may be correct, but that certainly seems like an opinion, rather than a fact. Is that a proper sentence for this article?
I'm quite new to this editing articles thing, so I figured I should ask.
-- Orporg
- It is an opinion expressed as a fact, and not in line with Wikipedia's NPOV policy; however, it may be rewritten with a citation, as in "so-and-so makes such-and-such a claim". Feel free to make the change yourself; Wikipedia is a cooperative process! —Lowellian (talk) July 2, 2005 23:23 (UTC)
[edit] ?
What is it exactly - the relationship between the US and UK, or the relationship between the US and British Commonwealth countries. US/Canada and US/Australia have been described as "special relationship"s.
[edit] "Warm personal relations"
The bottom Bush / Blair bit says:
"Warm personal relations aparrently followed".
Well, they did, but this phrasing has a nudge and a wink to it. The Bill Clinton use of the word 'relations' is clearly brought to mind. There is a "conspiracy" theory that there is a full blown homosexual relationship between the two. Should this document allude quite so directly to this?
[edit] Glaring omission
It seems odd that there is no mention of the blair/clinton relationship. Not only are the two often said (rightly or not) to have enjoyed a genuine friendship, but they had obvious common ground in terms of their approach to both the substance and presentation of 'third-way' centre-left politics. Blair learnt many lessons from the 1994 campaign, and clinton was openly and actively supportive of labour in the run-up to Blair's 1997 victory.
[edit] external links
I am unsure why a link to a band that happens to share the name of this page is on it - should it really be there? I must confess to never having heard of the band, but that is hardly a case for it not being otherwise notable. It's out of place in what is essentially a politcal page. If no objections, I'll remove that link.LeeG 02:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC) Acch. Just noticed the bit in in the intro, have reverted page to previous edit to remove it.LeeG 02:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Political cartoon
This political 'cartoon' is in the current issue of Private Eye, and I think demonstrates a sceptical view of the "special relationship" that is common among the British public. Might it be fair use to use it in this article, or could we perhaps ask for permission from Private Eye? Robin Johnson (talk) 13:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
- I think you'd have to work very hard on fair use rationale on that one. Also, being from Private Eye, is it supposed to be funny? It's not. Mark83 13:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] UK and France/Germany?!
As a UK resident I've never before considered my country as having a special relationship with Germany and France. In fact very often the complete opposite. In fact throughout the 80's and 90's the UK's relationship with those nations was anything *but* special - we vetoed dozens of EU laws and bills, opposed stacks of Franco-German initiatives, and remain one of the most Euro-skeptic nations in the EU. The UK government's relationship with the US government far outweighs any pro-Franco-German considerations. I think that line should thus be scrapped.Iamlondon 13:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with the sentiments, but which line are you refering to?
[edit] Did the Special Relationship start before this?
In discussion with colleagues recently, it was mentioned that the 'Special Relationship' could possibly be traced to before Churchill's comments to the Jay Treaty which led to the Quasi-War where the Royal Navy and the United States Navy are shown to have helped each other out somewhat, sharing a system of signals by which to recognize each other's warships at sea. Also I have been told that the term Special Relationship, referring to US-UK relations can found on the tour of USS_Constitution in Boston. I am no historian - but are these claims founded at all? Just interested, that's all... --Chiefmoamba 10:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
An interesting point, but seeing as the US and UK went to war with one another after the period you're discussion (1790s) and that the British in fact burned Washington, I'd say the "Special Relationship" started later. Once could argue that a stillborn SR was stirring during the Federalist period, however.
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I think you may be thinking of the "Most Favored Nation" status that the US enjoyed with the British Empire following the American Revolution and the original falling-out with France. As for the War of 1812, the British did burn Washington but only after American forces burned York (it was retaliatory, not an original affront to the US). The somewhat close relationship between the two nations, it would seem, picked up where it left off in the decades following the war, fostered perhapse by Britain's lingering paternalistic view of itself relative the US. There may be some merit in considering a much older origin to the so-called "special relationship" in cultural, political and economic veins for the purposes of this article. --JTM
[edit] Addition removed
"The Uk is a key ally of the US because of its military and economic strengths,i t currently spends more per head on the military than any other country, the 2nd highest spending with the 28th highest number of soldiers. This further shows the UK's focus on quality not quantity, however a blair speech on the 12th jan 2007 revealed an increase in expenditure which will obviously bring the two countries closer and closer together.[1][2]"
[edit] Explanation
- "The Uk is a key ally of the US because of its military and economic strengths" - repitition
- "it currently spends more per head on the military than any other country, the 2nd highest spending with the 28th highest number of soldiers. " - My back of an envelope calculations say US per capita defence spending is 1.56 billion per million citizens. UK is 1.06 billion.
- "This further shows the UK's focus on quality not quantity, however a blair speech on the 12th jan 2007 revealed an increase in expenditure which will obviously bring the two countries closer and closer together" - Editorialising Mark83 21:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
