Talk:Suffix (name)

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Just for reference, the legal name on my birth certificate is "James Patrick Howard, II" and my father is "James Patrick Howard".

I believe you, but it's still not de rigueur. Quill 21:48, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 Wife DOES use husband's suffix 2 Promotion 3 UK Public Schools 4 Origins of US social convention? 5 skipping a generation 6 Comma before Jr. and Sr. not mandatory; it's optional 7 What about same middle initial?

[edit] Wife DOES use husband's suffix

Whoever deleted this reference is completely wrong. The wife of Mr. John Doe, Jr. is indeed Mrs. John Doe, Jr.

Please refer to Emily Post's Etiquette if you won't take my word for it.

Quill 20:37, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Promotion

The article states that neither tradition not etiquette decide whether names are promoted (III to Jr., Jr. to Sr., etc.) upon the death of the eldest member of the chain. However, other sources suggest that it is traditional to be promoted. Should I change it, or do others disagree? --ComplexZeta 21:04, 2004 Nov 28 (UTC)

Disagree. I have done (and still do) a fair amount of reading on points of etiquette. It's not 'wrong' either way (Emily Post, Elizabeth L. Post). Still, if you feel strongly about it, please name the sources and by all means reference this in the entry. I would object to an unsubstantiated 'some souces suggest' or words to that effect. Quill 22:13, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In that case, I'll leave it. You've probably done more research than I have. --ComplexZeta

According to Miss Manners, "Everyone does move up a notch."

-- Martin, Judith (1991). Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior pp. 31-32. New York: Galahad Books. ISBN 0-88-365-781-3.

Jonathunder 05:35, 2004 Dec 2 (UTC)

Fair enough. (We'll just skip the whole 'does Miss Manners count' argument ;)

I actually like the promotion method myself, but I do understand why others don't want to use it. Does my edit suit? Quill 22:47, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] UK Public Schools

Clarification and/or expansion is needed here. What about the use of primus and secundus? And is such use limited to boys? Quill 22:02, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Origins of US social convention?

Does anyone know the history of how the convention of naming subsequent generations with numbered suffixes came about in the U.S. as it is almost non-existant in other English speaking countries (ther than aristo's of course)? 86.136.27.54 13:35, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd venture that the answer is at least partially explained in your question: Imitating the aristocrats and stroking the ego by starting a dynasty of one's own. This practice has several practical complications, for example fathers and sons constantly receiving one another's mail. And, if the practice of "promotion" is used, a second source of confusion arises from the fact that written documents aren't necessarily updated. So it becomes necessary to know the senior's date of death as well as the date of any written record where a person in the chain is mentioned. Seems to me that these practical complications aren't really outweighed by any real benefits to the family or society. Naming laws are anathema in the US but I believe that outlawing this anachronistic practice would save lots of money in the long run. --CodeGeneratR 00:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] skipping a generation

So there is debate in my family as to the proper customs when a generation is skipped. If the father is not named after his predecessors (ie. NOT named john smith III) can his son pick up the number where it was left off? Or would the new son be considered the first?

I'm not from the US, but a paragraph in the article would seem to give a clue: Primarily in the U.S.A. (and never in the U.K.), boys who should be styled junior are sometimes incorrectly labeled with the suffix ‘II’, particularly if there is a third or fourth with the same name. Even if a legal title, this is socially incorrect; strictly speaking, ‘II’, pronounced the second, refers to a boy who is named after his grandfather, uncle, or cousin. The suffixes ‘II’, ‘III’, etc. are also correctly written 2nd, 3rd, etc. (Emphasis mine.) If the numbering down the generations goes "John Smith, Henry Smith, John Smith II", it would seem logical that it would also go "John Smith, John Smith, Jr, Henry Smith, John Smith III". (Besides, if a son had to have the same name as his father to continue the numbering then presumably "II" would never be used, which clearly isn't the case.) Proteus (Talk) 19:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is the same as yours, Proteus. Things can get confusing very quickly, e.g. in your second example, upon the death of John Smith, or if John Smith also sired Michael Smith and Robert Smith, either (or both!) of whom decides to name his son after his father. In the anon. user's case as well as the others, I would opt for a different middle name so that the new son is, indeed, the first. Quill 01:22, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comma before Jr. and Sr. not mandatory; it's optional

Modern usage does not require a comma before "Jr." Most American newspapers and news magazines, in fact, following the Associated Press Stylebook, leave out the comma. Acsenray 17:50, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Acsenray.

1. There is often a significant if not vast difference between social etiquette and what is printed in American newspapers and news magazines (e.g. that poor lady was NOT called "Princess Diana"!! Still, I don't feel strongly enough about this to change back--or even to look up what the majority is.

2. As far as I know, this type of edit: 'blah blah' to "blah blah" is a correction from Commonwealth styling to American styling and is considered rude at Wikipedia unless it is germane to the article. Just a 'heads up!' before you lose your mind change every 'aluminium' to 'aluminum' and take a lot of flak for it! Cheers Quill 02:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

p.s.--If Wikipedia has made a style decision on inverted commas--or on quotation marks--please let me know so I don't take flak for it! Thanks.

Quill 02:52, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not on a mission to change all 's to "s. The only thing I'll say on that point is that there is a separate character for ", so it seems to me that writing it with two 's is not appropriate, or at least disfavoured.

However, what I am interested in working out is the claim in the article (which I changed) that "Jr." requires a preceding comma. I've taken out that claim and I note that you don't object to my change.

I'd also like to point out that when a comma is used before "Jr.," it is usually the case that one is required after as well. Such as in this case:

Interestingly, the son of actor Lon Chaney, was billed by Hollywood as Lon Chaney, Jr., to capitalize on his father’s success, even though he had an entirely different birth name.

That second comma is necessary. However, if you follow modern style, then you don't have to worry about it:

Interestingly, the son of actor Lon Chaney, was billed by Hollywood as Lon Chaney Jr. to capitalize on his father’s success, even though he had an entirely different birth name.Acsenray 14:29, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What about same middle initial?

My father has the same first name and middle initial as I do, however different middle name.

I know it's not right, but I happen to consider myself "Robert J. Salender, II"

I don't think it is right to be a junior by middle initial... just by middle name. So that's why I do this.

But it's completely wrong.

Most businesses want first name and middle initial. They are both "Robert J." for my father and me, so what am I supposed to do?
Rjsec4ever 07:27, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Complain to your dad perhaps? :-P Anyway, I think it's entirely up to you to style yourself "Jr" or "II" as you please, so-called "etiquette" be damned. --CodeGeneratR 06:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)