Talk:Team B

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Contents 1 Article exerpts on team b, not mentioned in the article yet: 1.1 What Was Rumsfeld's Role? 1.2 Typed in team b and rumsfeld in google 1.2.1 San Francisco Chronicle 1.2.2 CommonDreams.org 1.2.3 americanprogress.org 2 POV check 2.1 criticism and after-analysis would get its own section 3 Team B counter(ed) a group of Team A CIA intelligence officials. 4 Am I missing something? Aren't there basically 3 subteams to team B? 5 Report online?

[edit] Article exerpts on team b, not mentioned in the article yet:

THE MIND OF THE ADMINISTRATION A CONTINUING SERIES ON THE THINKERS WHO HAVE SHAPED THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S VIEW OF THE WORLD. Sam Tanenhaus, a contributing editor at Vanity Fair, is writing a biography of William F. Buckley.;THE HARD-LINER HARVARD HISTORIAN RICHARD PIPES SHAPED THE REAGAN ADMINISTRATION'S AGGRESSIVE APPROACH TO THE SOVIET UNION. HIS SUPPORT FOR CONFRONTATION OVER CONTAINMENT PREFIGURED THE BUSH FOREIGN POLICY OF TODAY. The Boston Globe November 2, 2003, Sunday

IDEAS; Pg. G1

By Sam Tanenhaus

Still, the debate persists, as much because of the panel's methods as its findings. While some Team B reports (for instance, Wolfowitz's on intermediate-range missiles) were closely reasoned, others drew on what Pipes himself calls "soft evidence" such as Soviet "theoretical writings that showed they didn't share the MAD doctrine." (That is, the doctrine of "mutually assured destruction," the premise that both sides would avoid a first nuclear strike for fear of unleashing armageddon. At times, Team B performed logical somersaults that eerily foreshadowed Bush administration statements on Iraq and weapons of mass destruction. Just because superweapons like a "non-acoustic anti-submarine system" couldn't be found, Pipes's report argued, that didn't mean the Soviets couldn't build one, even if they appeared to lack the technical know-how.

Books in Review;An Indispensable Historian The American Spectator February 2004

Pipes believed that the Sovietologists who dominated Soviet studies were no better than the British appeasers of the 1930s. This conviction lead to his growing political involvementofirst with Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson, a leading critic of the Nixon-Kissinger policy of dEtente; then with the conservative Stanford Research Institute; and then as the chairman of "Team B," a group of scholars created in 1976 at the behest of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board. Members of PFIAB had grown increasingly uneasy about the CIA's complacent evaluation of the Soviet Union's massive nuclear buildup of the 1970s, and Team B was tasked with developing an alternative analysis.

Pipes and his fellow team members concluded that the CIAothough highly well-informed about the quantity and quality of Soviet weapons--understood next to nothing of Soviet intentions. CIA analysts took it for granted that Soviet strategists, like their American counterparts, regarded nuclear weapons as defensive tools designed to deter a potential attack. But Pipes, with his knowledge of the Soviet mindset and the Leninist political tradition, demonstrated that Soviet strategists believed that a nuclear war could be fought and won, and were in the process of creating a nuclear force-structure with an offensive, war-winning capacity. U.S. complacency in the face of these offensive Soviet deployments, Pipes warned, risked "potentially catastrophic consequences."

Team B's conclusionsoconfirmed nine years later by Soviet authorities during the final, glasnost phase of Soviet historyowere widely ridiculed by the usual liberal critics, but they deeply influenced Ronald Reagan's critique of dEtente. And when Reagan was elected president in 1980, Pipes was asked to join the National Security Council as the head of its East European and Soviet desk.

Yes, He Has Lived National Review November 24, 2003, Monday Books, Arts & Manners; Volume LV, No. 22 By JAY NORDLINGER Vixi: Memoirs of a Non-Belonger, by Richard Pipes (Yale, 264 pp., $30)

For half a century, Richard Pipes has been one of the world's foremost scholars of Russia, and a man of political and policy influence as well: In the 1970s, he headed "Team B," the group directed to challenge the CIA's assumptions about the Soviet Union (which were wrong). And in the early 1980s, he served on the National Security Council staff of President Reagan. From the time of his birth in Cieszyn, Poland, to now, when he has assumed emeritus status at Harvard, Pipes has lived a rich, meaningful life. Fortunately, he has the ability to recount it, richly and meaningfully.

Robert Novak Slate Magazine October 2, 2003, Thursday Chris Suellentrop

The notion that the CIA perpetually understates the strength of America's enemies is a central neoconservative article of faith. (And it's a notion that's been disputed by Fareed Zakaria, among others. In the June 16 Newsweek,Zakaria wrote: For decades some conservatives, including many who now wield great influence, have had a tendency to vastly exaggerate the threat posed by tyrannical regimes.) It dates to at least the 1970s, when Richard Pipes led Team B, a group of outside experts thatconcluded that the CIA was understating the military might of the Soviet Union.

[edit] What Was Rumsfeld's Role?

In the article, "Rumsfeld" is mentioned once ("The CIA strongly disagreed with Team B's assessments, calling Rumsfeld's position a 'complete fiction' and [...]"), but there's nothing in the article which explains what role Rumsfeld had with Team B. What was his role? If he is to be mentioned, I think the text should clarify that. --Majic 12:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I believe that he had the same role as he did with the fictioanal WMDs, he helped create the team B, then hyped its fictional findings. For a definate answer, please read some of the articles provided, they will have the answer.Travb 16:29, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the reference to "Rumsfeld" (presumably Donald Rumsfeld), as his role in Team B is never described in the article. If someone wishes to restore this information, please explain in the article what role he had before citing his "position". Otherwise, it's as meaningless as mentioning former governor Ronald Reagan's "position". ~ Jeff Q (talk) 17:36, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Please don't delete information without reading what I asked you too. As it clearly says here (http://www.silt3.com/index.php?id=572) :

"Rumsfeld began to make speeches alleging that the Soviets were ignoring Kissinger’s treaties and secretly building up their weapons, with the intention of attacking America."

"The CIA, and other agencies who watched the Soviet Union continuously for any sign of threat, said that this was a complete fiction. There was no truth to Rumsfeld’s allegations. But Rumsfeld used his position to persuade President Ford to set up an independent inquiry. He said it would prove that there was a hidden threat to America. And the inquiry would be run by a group of neoconservatives, one of whom was Paul Wolfowitz. The aim was to change the way America saw the Soviet Union."

So he helped create team B, just as he created the bogus intellegent assessments for the WMD's. Add this into the article as you see fit. You obviously ignored my suggestion. Travb 22:45, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Typed in team b and rumsfeld in google

I typed in "team b" and rumfeld and here is what I found:

[edit] San Francisco Chronicle

In the 1970s, when President Richard Nixon's policy of detente was under attack by some former military officials and conservative policy intellectuals, Ford administration officials Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld were among those challenging as too soft the CIA's estimate of Moscow's military power.

Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted to create a "Team B," which would have access to the CIA's data on the Soviets and issue its own conclusions. Cheney, as White House chief of staff, and Rumsfeld, as secretary of Defense, championed Team B, whose members included the young defense strategist Paul Wolfowitz, who a quarter-century later would be one of the chief architects of the 2003 invasion of Iraq.[1]

[edit] CommonDreams.org

Nixon left amid scandal and Ford came in, and Ford's Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) and Chief of Staff (Dick Cheney) believed it was intolerable that Americans might no longer be bound by fear. Without fear, how could Americans be manipulated?

Rumsfeld and Cheney began a concerted effort - first secretly and then openly - to undermine Nixon's treaty for peace and to rebuild the state of fear and, thus, reinstate the Cold War.

And these two men - 1974 Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Ford Chief of Staff Dick Cheney - did this by claiming that the Soviets had secret weapons of mass destruction that the president didn't know about, that the CIA didn't know about, that nobody but them knew about. And, they said, because of those weapons, the US must redirect billions of dollars away from domestic programs and instead give the money to defense contractors for whom these two men would one day work.

"The Soviet Union has been busy," Defense Secretary Rumsfeld explained to America in 1976. "They’ve been busy in terms of their level of effort; they’ve been busy in terms of the actual weapons they ’ve been producing; they’ve been busy in terms of expanding production rates; they’ve been busy in terms of expanding their institutional capability to produce additional weapons at additional rates; they’ve been busy in terms of expanding their capability to increasingly improve the sophistication of those weapons. Year after year after year, they’ve been demonstrating that they have steadiness of purpose. They’re purposeful about what they’re doing."

The CIA strongly disagreed, calling Rumsfeld's position a "complete fiction" and pointing out that the Soviet Union was disintegrating from within, could barely afford to feed their own people, and would collapse within a decade or two if simply left alone.

But Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted Americans to believe there was something nefarious going on, something we should be very afraid of. To this end, they convinced President Ford to appoint a commission including their old friend Paul Wolfowitz to prove that the Soviets were up to no good. [2]

[edit] americanprogress.org

Many of the very same people who deliberately created the misimpression about Iraq to goad the American people into supporting a war had already executed a run-through of the same strategy in the 1970s. Back then, establishment hardliners associated with the now defunct “Committee on the Present Danger” heaped scorn upon the professional intelligence services for their alleged underestimation of Soviet military capabilities. They succeeded in convincing then-CIA Director, George H.W. Bush, to appoint a now infamous "Team B" to go through the same material and come up with an answer that would justify a vast increase in U.S. defense spending. With the powerful political patronage of then-Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, its members, including Paul Wolfowitz, came up with astronomical numbers for alleged Soviet military spending and capabilities. As Newsweek’s Farred Zakaria, a moderately conservative war supporter, has observed, “In retrospect, Team B’s conclusions were wildly off the mark.” It argued, for instance, that back in 1976, the Soviets enjoyed "a large and expanding Gross National Product." It credited them with double the number Backfire bombers the nation could actually produce. It turns out that even the CIA’s much pilloried estimates for Soviet military capabilities were far too generous. Sounding very much as if he were talking about Iraqi WMD capabilities 30 years later, Rumsfeld claimed, “No doubt exists about the capabilities of the Soviet armed forces.” Think Again: Team 'B' [3] Travb 00:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV check

This article is pretty well sourced, but completely one-sided. It seems to be a little sloppy in places in terms of quotes used, connections drawn etc. There are a couple instances of scare quotes and pejorative labels. heqs 05:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Please continue to find sources that make it "less POV" (ie supportive of your view). I welcome this. Good job adding the quote. Please continue.Travb (talk) 05:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

It just needs a little softening up. I mean this basically reads like a hit piece. heqs 06:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

So do the pieces on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi and Charles Manson. Sure, any comparison is hyperbole, but the problem is that there aren't many defenders of Team B, because there's not much to defend about the project. This was an end-run around the intelligence agencies whose goal was to justify conclusions that had been made in advance. It's not that controversial a point. I'm all for showing all sides of the story, but sometimes there really isn't that much of an other side. That said, I don't think the article has to be an assassination piece; it should be descriptive, and the various views about Team B should be properly sourced. But we shouldn't try to create an illusion of balance at the expense of truth.--csloat 06:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't have to know anything about Team B to tell that the article was largely written in an ideological tone by person(s) ideologically opposed to the venture. That kinda sets of the alarm bells. Not much of an other side? Let's not pretend that this isn't yet another left-right, dove-hawk, tug-of-war with plenty of ranting and raving on both sides. (And yes, your comparisons are strange.) heqs 07:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's not a left-right tug of war with ranting and raving on both sides. If you don't know anything about Team B, you should read some of the sources listed here, or do your own research if you don't trust the sources cited here. You'll see that there really isn't much defense of Team B to include here. It was a politicized organization whose goal was to develop intelligence to support conclusions that had already been reached rather than the other way around. That's why people are so critical of it. If you find information that it had other goals, please by all means include that information here. But don't accuse people of ideological bias when you admit yourself that you don't know much about the topic.--csloat 07:30, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I just reread the article and I don't understand your objection at all. It seems extremely balanced to me. The first section is purely descriptive, and, while there is some criticism (not nearly as much as one can easily find by picking up a few books on the topic, or even through a google search as others note above), the article concludes with positive quotes about Team B. I see you've made a number of changes, so perhaps you've balanced it out yourself. If so, what is the current objection?--csloat 07:40, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say I didn't know anything about it. I meant that one wouldn't have to, to detect the strong bias present. I've tried to balance it a smidge. Typically, criticism and after-analysis would get its own section, rather than mashing together Team B's findings with its critics. Given the way this particular issue unfolded over the years, the article may be appropriately styled. I'd like to leave the flag up for a few days to see what others think. Thanks, heqs 09:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me; sorry if I came off too aggressively.--csloat 09:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I have removed the POV tag. I hope that my edits are seen to have improved the article. heqs 10:50, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] criticism and after-analysis would get its own section

Typically, criticism and after-analysis would get its own section, rather than mashing together Team B's findings with its critics. Given the way this particular issue unfolded over the years, the article may be appropriately styled.

I will add a criticism section--good idea.

i really liked your changes. Good job. It is a more balanced article now. I added back three sentences, two of which explain who these people are. But all of the other changes I kept.

Signed:Travb (talk) 09:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I reverted back the one-liners about the members. IMO, on a list of names like that, either we give a convenient label (like "hawk") to everyone, or simply state their position at the time (not their future position), or leave it up for people to decide for themselves who they were. Preferably the latter. heqs 10:27, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

For instance, you mentioned that Paul Warnke was in the Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, yet next to Wolfowitz, rather than state he was also a member of ACDA you put a quote that casts him in a less than flattering light. heqs 11:15, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Team B counter(ed) a group of Team A CIA intelligence officials.

Team B was a competitive analysis exercise created by American conservatives in the 1970s to counter a group of CIA intelligence officials known as Team A.

I am not sure if Team A was made up of CIA intelligence officials. I don't have access to the book Killing Detente, which talks about this subject ad nauseam right now, and a cursory glance at some of the articles I posted don't come up with much with "team a" so I can't confirm it. Travb (talk) 09:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Right now I'm reading this article by Richard Pipes and it makes quite clear that Team A was the CIA and Team B was the "outside experts". They met face to face before senate committees and such. It's quite an interesting read. I like how Pipes takes a rather dispassionate, clinical approach when discussing these things, even though he was directly involved. One of the things he touches on is that much of the media reaction at the time was unfounded, as the documents themselves were all classified. It was Pipes himself who pushed for declassification. (IMO, the only serious criticism of Team B started with Cahn's research and FOI requests) heqs 09:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

thanks for clarifications.Travb (talk) 17:07, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Am I missing something? Aren't there basically 3 subteams to team B?

• The weapons and detection system predictions seem complete garbage.
• accuracy (I'm unclear whether their predictions of accuracy was true or not)
• intentions (Pipes claims that they were 100% correct)

Is there really no counterpoint to Pipes view on Soviet nuclear intentions? If there isn't then the article seems to be somewhat unbalanced to team B's detriment. If there is then perhaps we need to point this out more in the article.WolfKeeper 02:23, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The three subteams are indicated in the intro. That said, I agree, and the article is still quite a mess. I must question the reliability of some of TravB's heavily partisan sources. This article was written as a one-sided hit piece on Team B, and could still use an almost complete re-write with a more level headed approach to the whole thing. heqs 00:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought we had this discussion a while ago; repeating the canard that this was a "one-sided hit piece" is not helpful to anyone. It wasn't and it isn't. There were some balance issues that you helped sort out, but that claim is unfounded, and you removed the NPOV tag after your problems with the article were addressed. But your view of Team B seems to be idiosyncratic; the literature on the issue seems to lean much more in the direction of criticism than even this article does. In any case, I agree this article has problems, but a "one-sided hit piece" it is not. csloat 23:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it's better now than before. It was quite clearly a one-sided article before. "One sided hit piece" is not a canard, I'm only suggesting that the article suffers from the fact that its premise was partisan and could still be improved greatly. heqs 16:16, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

If you have complaints about a specific sentence or paragraph please let us know. As I said, your view appears to be idiosyncratic; complaining that a piece relatively fairly representing the consensus view is "one-sided" is a bit hysterical, and calling it a "hit piece" borders on mind-reading those involved in the editing process. Again, I don't think it's helpful at all -- if you have improvements to suggest, please do so. This article is not "one-sided" and it was never a "hit piece." csloat 17:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Report online?

The report is apparently declassified and presumably public domain, being funded by the government. I googled, but couldn't find it. Anyone know if it's online anywhere?WolfKeeper 20:44, 9 December 2006 (UTC)