Talk:Thatcherism

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Thatcherism is the system of political thought attributed to the governments of Margaret Thatcher, British Prime Minister during the 1980s.

See also Reaganomics and Rogernomics. Thatcherism is characterized by a free market liberalism perhaps more closely associated with Victorian Liberalism in the United Kingdom, low taxation, trenchant opposition to vested interests not seen to be associated with the English middle classes, (which it sought to expand at the expense of the manufacturing base) -- especially the Trade Unions -- and a suspicion of the institutions of the British Welfare State. Thinkers closely associated with Thatcherism include Keith Joseph and Milton Friedman.

Whether it ultimately benefited Britain or not, it destroyed the post-war consensus of British politics. In 2001 Peter Mandelson, a member of parliament belonging to the British Labour Party closely associated with Tony Blair, famously declared that "we are all Thatcherites now", in reference to the perceived shift that created the "New" Labour Party that came to power in 1997.

[edit] Typo?

" After the initial shock of getting pounded by mock"

[edit] If "Thatcherism" is a term of abuse...

Original piece was by moi: PainMan 04:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

...what's it doing as the header of an encyclopedia article? "Thatcherism" is a meaningless term--except when expressing one's contempt for free markets, low taxes, curbing governmental intrusiveness and strong national defense. The author's glancing reference to this hardly takes the venom out of the sting!

"Thatcherism" is not generally accepted to be a term of abuse; it is merely used as one by those who fail to understand its merits. As a long-time admirer of Mrs Thatcher, I think it an appropriate topic for a separate article jamesgibbon 11:54, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In fact, the proper term for this ideology is Free Market Conservatism. It owes its intellectual genesis William F. Buckley (see his book God and Man at Yale) and, politically, to the late American Senator, and defeated presidential candidate (1964), Barry Goldwater (of Arizona). The late American President Ronald Reagan (1981-89) brought it to political triumph in the US with the greatest electoral victory in the republic's history--forever altering the American presidency and government in the process. The greatest popular expositor of this ideology is Rush Limbaugh--the man who almost singlehandedly created a Conservative media in the United States. Before the latter, the American meda was a complete monopoly of the Left.

Lady Thatcher is the only disciple of American Conservatism to ever run a foreign nation (to my knowledge; I'd love to proven wrong on this one!). Certainly no European head of government/state has ever been a believer in it! In fact, the socialist/communist Continentals still routinely abuse American Conservatism & conservatives (e.g. former French Prime Minister Lionel Jospin's idiotic rants about "Anglo-Saxon" economics).

First point: this author couldn't have trumpeted his or her opposition to Conservatism (to reiterate, this is not the John Major/Brian Mulroney tax-and-spend-ism hidden under the guise of conservatism) even more loudly had he or she stooped to oopen mud-slinging. If I understand British protocol at all, Margaret Thatcher should have been referred to her by her proper title--Baroness Thatcher. For example, we refer to the Elder Pitt as such rather than the title he was granted by George III (Lord Chatham) because few, unless deeply conversant with the history of British imperialism, would recognize it, there is no reason not to refer to Baroness Thatcher by her proper title. Especially since most British "Prime Ministers" have been granted earldoms (the term only became official in 1905, heretofore one became head of government by being appointed First Treasury Lord, this being a typical example of British clarity: he who controlled the keys to the coffers, controlled the kingdom) since the first man to bear that title (a term of abuse at the time!), Robert Walpole, was created Earl of Orford by George II.

Second point and most importantly: this subject, without the derogatory heading, is properly handled under a discussion of Free Market Conservatism; not under associated biography.

Given the hatred many Leftists/Liberals still harbor toward Baroness Thatcher, and after my experience of trying to "revert" the article on Win95 with a brief, innocuous summary of the GUI's history, I'm not falling into an edit war over this.

Suffice it to say my opinion is that this article is hostile to both Baroness Thatcher and Free Market Conservatism. After all, we don't write articles about Neil Kinnock's Labor Party under the heading of "Britain's Leninist-Labor Party"--completely accurate though I believe it would be. Nor would an article on Christianity be acceptable if it were placed under the heading of "Tritheism"--a common hate-term used by Muslims to insult Christians.

Actually, we do. The important thing is to put the article where people will find it, right? Although I think some of your POV arguments are valid, I (as a Christian) don't find the tritheism article particularly offensive just because of its name. An article of this name would be a good place to discuss the conflict between progressive and regressive politics in the context of 1980's Great Britain, and if Western Leninism were a catch phrase, I think it would be a good article title, too. There's even an established format for debates, if I'm not mistaken; feel free to add your account of the effects of these policies, and maybe even some right-wing thinkers' suggestions for how the public should rename this political movement if you so desire.

Also, feel free to sign your talk page contributions with three or for tildes, or by hitting the signature button on the toolbar above the editing window.--Joel 23:40, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

One more closing thought: "Christian" started as a term of abuse also. It's been over a millenium since that was the case, but I would say that the sooner you accept a commonly-used term, the sooner it will lose its utility as a way for your opponents to manipulate your emotions. Is it so wrong that powerful leaders lend their names to the systems of thought that they help establish? Anyone who looks at Christianity will find a link to monotheism; why not add "See also: Free Market Conservatism" to the end of this article?--Joel 00:02, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

Though an admirer of Baroness Thatcher, I frequently link to this article as it is convenient political shorthand in the UK. Like so many terms originally intended as abuse, it has been enthusiastically embraced by its targets. What better than to have an -ism coined? It is a coherent set of ideas.

Thatcher was not a disciple of any US ideas. Her thought starts from Adam Smith, through Richard Cobden to Friedrich Hayek. All about as American as Jacques Chirac. However, her thinking departs from all of them, and from that of your own Barry Goldwater, in that she was a social conservative, rather too much so for my comfort. Social conservatism is a very European thing. Thatcher was appalled by US socialism and opposition to free trade as seen in its protectionism in agriculture that persists under George W. Bush.

That said, this seems like a POV article to me. Take the sentence:

The collapse of Britain's manufacturing base, which many blame on Thatcherism, was partly compensated for by the growth in the service industries.

Now, collapse of ... manufcaturing base, does this mean in terms of value of goods produced or in people employed? It the latter it is undeniably true but the former requires some evidence. I do not believe that the value of goods manufactured in Britain now is less than in 1980 but I will stand corrected if we can see some evidence. If a small decrease would not justify the word collapse. However, given that the UK has higher GDP and higher employment than in 1980, then growth in the service sector must have more than compensated. Have I understood this? Cutler 12:55, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Cutler I realize now I should have been clearer. The way I wrote sounds as though (modern) Conservative ideas are only a product of Americans. This is not the case historically and not what I meant to write. Buckley, Goldwater, Reagan and Limbaugh all work from the same source ideas as Baroness Thatcher (e.g. Adam Smith, Edmund Burke, etc). I should have been clearer. At the same time, I don't think we can rule out Lady Thatcher's having been influenced by American conservative thought. Indeed, she put it into action in the UK before Reagan did so in the US (e.g. taking on Big Labor--or "trades unions" as you call them 'cross the pond--by firing the illegal strike by the air traffic controllers). While Lady Thatcher clearly had to give the Elder Bush a fillip of firmness (so to speak) when Iraq invaded Kuwait (her wonderful remark, "Don't go wobbly, George!" stiffened the former President's resolve), this wasn't needed with Ronald Reagan. The Elder Bush, as much as I admire the man, has never really been a Conservative, though moving toward the social conservative position on abortion.

Britain's GDP is clearly much higher today than it was in 1980. You also have the luck to be self-sufficient in oil (of course you're only a sixth of our size and the UK covers an area about the size of the Great Lakes). But by reversing some of the damage done by the welfare state and prying the union thugs' greasy fingers off the economy, the UK now has the strongest economy in Europe. Unlike your "Eurosclerotic" neighbors with permanent 10 and 12% unemployment rates, yours is 6% to our less than 5%. And in the cases of both the US and UK, economists have long known that about 3% of the workforce simply will not (or cannot) work. Being permanently disabled, I understand better than most what its like not to be able to earn a living and being stuck receiving insultingly low disability payments (but hey I see something every month the rest of my generation never will: a Social Security check!). Thus one can safely subtract 3% from the nominal unemployment rate to get the actual one. (Note that this does not work with France, Germany, Canada, etc.) Thus both the US and UK have, in actuality, very low unemployment, high standards of living and the highest labor productivity in the world.

Oh yeah, leaving my signature off was pure absent-mindedness.

Finally...Tritheism. No self-respecting Christian would ever so label himself. The neo-pagan religion of Mormonism is a compound of Masonic rituals, Joseph Smith's imagination and misunderstanding of a number of Christian heresies. Orthodox Christianity (of whatever flavor, Catholic, Protestant, Coptic, Graeco-Russian Orthodoxy) explicitly rejects the idea that the Trinity is "three" Gods. Indeed, the Islamic prophet Muhammad misunderstood the Trinity completely, thinking it consisted of God, Jesus and Mary! So "tritheism" and "tritheism" are not only terms of abuse but ignorance. PainMan 04:45, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Re: Thatcherism as a form of Government

"This personal approach also became identified with a certain toughness at times such as the Falklands War, the IRA bomb at the Conservative conference and the Miner's Strike."

-- Made links. I'm not able to find a Wikipedia article corresponding to "the IRA bomb at the Conservative conference". Can anybody find the appropriate article? Thanks. -- 201.78.233.162 19:58, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• Whoa, that was fast. Thanks. -- 201.78.233.162 20:05, 3 July 2006 (UTC)