Talk:The 48 Laws of Power

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[edit] self-worth

I changed "self-worth" to "power". This book has less to do with how you feel about yourself and more about how to effectively use power against others, or to protect yourself from others use of it against you. It's a strategy book. I have a feeling eventually someone is going to remove the word "seminal" as well because that seems like an opinion. But it was harmless enough so i left it. --Bigplankton 20:34, 14 February 2006 (UTC)Bigplankton

[edit] Copyvio

Uh... how is copying the 48 laws word for word not a copyvio? Sure there is plenty more to the book, but still... Jdotpitts 15:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems to be a complete transcription of the book's Table of Contents (verified via amazon). I dont know if that counts as copyvio? or promotional? (it is useful as a summation, but does seem potentially legally dubious...). I'll add a template just in case. (The full text desciption of each was inserted by A-man on feb 13.) -Quiddity 20:20, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

That template made me crap my pants : ) Bigplankton 02:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think simply listing the 48 laws is a copyvio, it merely illustrates what they are. The author freely admits to borrowing the laws from many other sources himself. I think a copyvio would lie more in reprinting his own explanations and summations of said laws. RoyBatty42 19:09, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The list of 48 laws is copyright and reproducing it in its entirety is a copyvio, which could reduce the commercial potential of the original for one thing. I have deleted it. There is no problem with reproducing a small sample of selected laws, say 6 or so, to give the flavour of them. See also rationale on wikiquote. Tyrenius 00:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Well the book's about 470 pages, the 48 laws titles are expressed in 1 page. No doubt having the summary explanation on every law should be copyvio but a kind of 48 "chapter" title in a raw, is fair use... else why the article's title should be as well a copyvio: it's a copyrighted name right? I suggest to put back the laws titles - no more. Let's pretend it's not a copy/paste from table of content and just chapters titles, and see if the author complains? Else i could rephrase each in my way but it would be my non fully objective perception of course... Neantbriceen 00:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with having the list back. Publishing the index of a book would surely be considered fair use. As for this reducing "the commercial potential of the original", I would think the effect of it would be the opposite. wikisoul 22:22, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that the list of every law constitutes fair use. I've asked for more thoughts on this at Wikipedia_talk:Fair_use#Talk:The_48_Laws_of_Power Tyrenius 02:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

There have been shorter lengths of text that have been ruled not to be fair use.Genisock2 14:43, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Would like to point out that I completed the full list by following the first link (adstockweb.com). If they still have the page up fully listing all 48 AND giving explanations for them, then it goes to show that the list itself is not considered protected. RoyBatty42 19:06, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Judging what is and is not a copyvio based on what other websites contain is risky. The website you gave may have permission from the author or be paying money for a license to display all of those. --Iamunknown 22:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't show anything of the sort. There are plenty of sites carrying copyvio material. Tyrenius 01:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

They don't have to show permission, they only have to have permission to prevent from getting a lawsuit handed to them. --Iamunknown 01:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Excerpts from WP:FU:

Inclusion of brief attributed quotations of copyrighted text, used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea is acceptable under fair use.

In general, extensive quotation of copyrighted news materials (such as newspapers and wire services), movie scripts, or any other copyrighted text is not fair use and is prohibited by Wikipedia policy.

Clearly this is not a brief quotation. It is an extensive quotation which contains the substance of the book. Tyrenius 01:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Tyrenius, I tend to agree. See http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/chapter9/9-c.html, particularly the fifth bullet under "Cases involving text". The text under consideration here parallels the fifth bullet at that website in that it essentially paraphrases the entire book and, I argue, does adversely affect the potential market value because anyone can read it and see all 48 laws. --Iamunknown 01:13, 8 April 2007 (UTC)