Talk:The Threepenny Opera

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Contents 1 Thanks 2 Fourpenny? 3 Strand 4 The songs 5 Musical numbers 6 Inspiration for the name Macheath? 7 Recent changes 8 English translations

[edit] Thanks

User:Ortolan88, thanks. Hyacinth 15:20, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The line forms on the right, babe. Ortolan88 15:40, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC) Any time.

[edit] Fourpenny?

A question: Why is the Threepenny Opera called the Fourpenny Opera in France? ====> L'Opéra de quat'sous I have asked many people, but to no avail.

I believe it is because of idiom: in German, drei groschen- (three-groat); in English, thrupenny. The corresponding expression denoting of little montary account (hence cheapskate or cheapjack) in French is de quat'sous. Considering that a sou has always been a coin of little value (unlike the penny), quatre sous must really be an even measlier price of admission than any of the others.

Nuttyskin 23:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strand

A remark: The German version of Mack The Knife has this line: ... liegt ein toter Mann am Strand, which is translated as: ... a dead man is lying on the beach. Sure enough, the German word Strand means beach. But the song refers to the Strand, a London street. The play is situated in Soho!

The line is rendered correctly in the Ralph Manheim translation.Chowbok 15:28, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, really! Now I know. In fact, in the German version they do sing "Strand" with English pronounciation ("Stränd").. oh, and btw, in the German version, the piratemaid's city is shelled (wird beschießen die Stadt -- stark effect) --145.253.2.232 07:55, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

"And the ship with black sails, and with 50 cannons, will besiege the city". (Und das Schiff mit acht Segeln und mit fünfzig Kanonen wird beschießen die Stadt.)... Bad translation? The word acht means eight in German, not black.

The most famous translation is the poorly-done one by Mark Blitzstein, where the line is "And the ship, the Black Freighter," etc. The Manheim translation has "And the ship, with eight sails..." I'm not sure which translation has the line here about black sails. --Chowbok 01:54, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

I have changed it to eight. Not only is my German good enough to tell the difference between "schwarz" and "acht", the subtitles of the bfi release of the film confirmed this.

[edit] The songs

What are the names of all the songs sung in the Threepenny Opera? Most know "Mack the Knife" is one, but what are the rest?

I've now added a list of these - I hope this isn't a copyright violation... Bob aka Linuxlad 16:08, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Musical numbers

@ Cielomobile, the score you are using can't be any good. At least the spellings "Ballade von der Sexuellen Hörigkeit", "Ballade vom Angenehmen Leben" and "Lied von der Unzulänglichkeit Menschlichen Strebens" are completely wrong, as adjectives are never capitalized in German. And—other than in English—there is no general capitalization of words in headlines in German. Look at Die Dreigroschenoper in German wikipedia for a complete and correct list of the German song titles according to Brecht's piece. — I know there are some variants between the piece (or the libretto) and the score (it's "Die Moritat von Mackie Messer" in the libretto but "Die Moritat vom Mackie Messer" in the score), but I don't have a score at hand to check them all out. --FordPrefect42 22:37, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I can scan the score for you if I must. You may be right about the capitals, seeing as the titles are in all capitals on my score, but I can assure you that I have the original score. Once I have scanned it, I will let you know and you can decide for yourself what revisions are appropriate. -- Reilly 00:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I have a copy of the original score, as written by Weill, and I have input the correct spelling, punctuation and such. The titles are in all capital letters, however, so I'll leave the capitalization to those who speak German better than me, but please do not change the placement of hyphons, etc. I know it may not be "proper German," but it's what is written on the score, and it should be respected. Keep in mind that it was written almost 80 years ago, and standard conventions for grammar most certainly have changed. -- Reilly 00:48, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, thank you for your answer. If the erroneous capitalization does not come from the score, I will not blame it any longer ;-) No need to scan the complete score, just tell us which edition you are using. In my latest edit of the article, I fixed the spelling of the song titles according to the German book edition of the play (edition suhrkamp 229), but this still bears some problems, as

1. some titles may differ in the play and the score (like "Die Moritat von/vom Mackie Messer" as mentioned before)
2. some songs have no title at all in the play (like "Liebeslied" or "Barbara-Song")
3. the order of the musical numbers seems to differ in various editions of the play.

I am not sure yet, how all this is presented best in the article. Maybe a table would be a good idea? --FordPrefect42 07:13, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

PS: please put new sections always at the end of a talk page. Thank you!

I have a photocopy of the score, but I'll let you know once I find out which edition it is (i.e. once I get my hands on the original, which my music teacher has). Reilly 02:11, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inspiration for the name Macheath?

Mac was a highwayman, and one of the most popular hangouts for such men was Blackheath, a suburb of London. The place must have been an inspiration for the character, but I wouldn't want to add that into the article without the proper citation, as it'd be OR.

Note: also posted on Talk:The Beggar's Opera. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 07:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent changes

I've partially reverted some of the rather drastic changes to the article today, for instance the whole musical numbers section (I have the German score; trust that my names are correct). If you want to revert my changes, please discuss it here first, and provide some valid reasoning. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 03:49, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

In this case, the score is certainly not the ultimate standard, because it does not contain the complete play. Better stick to the script. --FordPrefect42 18:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The score should be the ultimate standard when it comes to the names of musical numbers. People know the songs by their shorted names, not by such phrases as "Und gibt’s auch kein Schriftstück vom Standesamt." That means absolutely nothing to most English speakers. "Liebeslied" is at least recognizable. -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 00:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] English translations

I've tried to add English translations to the musical numbers as best as I could, but I'm by no means a fluent speaker of German, so please correct me if you can. I only ask that you don't use the Blitzstein translation or something of the like, because I know German well enough to see that "Kannonensong" does not mean "Army Song." -- Cielomobile ^{talk / contribs} 00:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)