Talk:Tip/Archive 1

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I was once told that in some southeast Asian cultures, tipping is cconsidered rude because it is taken to imply that the waiter needs to be bribed to perform a decent service. Can someone confirm & add to the article? -- Tarquin 17:24 Dec 14, 2002 (UTC)

Erm not in particular. But it does become a conversation starter, meaning tipping is done in front of friends and then discussed about. Generally, in bars and pubs, the waiters welcome tips. Tipping is not customary in S.E.Asian countries so save your pennies :-) -- Changed 22:44 June 30, 2005 (GMT+8)

Contents 1 "Tip" is not an acronym. 2 Sweden 2.1 Sources 3 Singapore 4 Objections to Tipping 5 The UK 6 Tipping in North America 7 Forced Added Gratuity

"Tip" is not an acronym.

I deleted this portion of the article:

TIP is an acronym for "To Insure Promptness." Its amount is usually set by the quality and speed of the service delivered. A typical TIP is between 15% to 30% of the total of the bill.

"Tip" is not an acronym. See http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.htm -- for future reference, note that the idea of any common verb being an acronym is usually suspicious (unless perhaps the term is a recent neologism). - furrykef (Talk at me) 12:41, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I looked at the article again and it turned out that the correct etymology had been given further on down. Why was the article inconsistent? - furrykef (Talk at me) 12:46, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Could people please stop adding this legend to the article? As pointed out on Snopes and in the OED, it simply isn't true. Rhobite 06:27, Apr 22, 2005 (UTC)

Give me a break Gunter. You're saying that an anecdote on the Twinings web page is a better reference than the OED? Because Twinings is an older company? I'm willing to guess that Oxford has one or two more etymologists on its staff than Twinings. I could be wrong. Rhobite 03:17, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

I've removed that paragraph. It would be to ensure promptness, not insure anyway, and so is a load of garbage. Proto 14:00, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I put back the version that says it's an urban legend. You and I know that it's not true, but many people do think that "tip" is an acronym, so we should at least mention it. Rhobite 18:34, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Proto, why are you removing this paragraph? It's OK for us to address urban legends and describe how they are incorrect. You seem to think that Wikipedia shouldn't even mention common misconceptions. But since this is a common belief, we should explain how it's wrong. Rhobite 23:55, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

Sweden

The article states that "In Sweden, a tip of the lowest denomination may be given as a sign of approval to a waiter who has given exceptionally good service, but never anything else." (emphasis added).

I very much disagree with this statement. First of all, it is obviously incorrect since it states that Swedes never tip anything but the lowest denomination, which contradicts an example below. What's true, however, is that the service charge is always included in the bill, so you're not expected to tip for that reason, but if you get good (and not just exceptional) service I do believe it's common to tip more than just the lowest denomination. This is especially true for fancier restaurants: I don't think anyone leaves a Michelin Guide listed restaurant with nothing but a lowest denomination tip, even though you might do so at your local tavern.

What do you think of a change such as: "In Sweden the service charge is included in the bill, but a small tip may be given as a sign of approval of the waiter."?

Sources

• A web poll by Aftonbladet (obviously non-scientific, but nevertheless illustrative with close to 50000 participants): showing that 46.6% tip 10% or more (it also shows that 31.4% never tips), published in relation to an article about a waitress who got a $4000 Porche as a tip, which is significantly more than the lowest domination. (Text is in Swedish.)
• The official Study in Sweden states that the service charge is included in the bill, but that it's normal practice to give a small tip if you have been treated well.
• The official guide to Stockholm states that in Stockholm people generally round up 10% or more.

Woseph 07:14:19, 2005-08-20 (UTC)

• One month and no comments, so I changed the article. Perhaps someone could take a look at the Finland and Taiwan section: I'm guessing that "tipping is practically unheard of [in Finland]" is a gross overstatement (due to Finland's proximity, both geographical and cultural, to Sweden). -- Woseph 08:31, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Singapore

The article says that tipping in Singapore is not expected and that cab drivers will sometimes round down. I wonder if this is an older custom? I was there earlier this year(2005), riding upwards of 30 taxis during my stay, and not one cabbie offered to round down, or to give change back when I rounded the fare up. Ditto at restaurants, no one said anything like "don't tip" to me the entire month. Perhaps it's because I was a westerner? (Westerners apparently pay more in DRAs too...) ++Lar 01:23, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Objections to Tipping

Re: removal of this section: I think this article does need to reflect the anti-tipping movement, as reflected by the recent decision of Per Se in NYC to eliminate tipping. [[1]]

I would respectfully submit that if the prior 'objections to tipping' section was POV, which it well may have been, it is more constructive to re-edit and improve it, rather than merely to delete it with no comment other than "POV, Speculative." That itself is no less POV.

From the Wikipedia NPOV page: (Wikipedia:Neutral point of view)

"Lack of neutrality as an excuse to delete

The neutrality policy is used sometimes as an excuse to delete texts that are perceived as biased. Isn't this a problem?

In many cases, yes. Many of us believe that the fact that some text is biased is not enough, in itself, to delete it outright. If it contains valid information, the text should simply be edited accordingly.

There's sometimes trouble determining whether some claim is true or useful, particularly when there are few people on board who know about the topic. In such a case, it's a good idea to raise objections on a talk page; if one has some reason to believe that the author of the biased material will not be induced to change it, we have sometimes taken to removing the text to the talk page itself (but not deleting it entirely). But the latter should be done more or less as a last resort, never as a way of punishing people who have written something biased."

RudolfRadna 25 September 2005 15:37 (UTC)

I agree with the above statement. Regardless of what anyone's feelings on tipping may be, I think we can all agree that it is not the place of a Wikipedia article to force a particular opinion on someone. This section needs to be edited to more accurately reflect it's heading. That is to say, it should cover the fact that some people object to the practive of tipping, and give the reasons why. If someone wishes, they could add a separate paragraph with legitimate refutations, but let's keep the obviously emotion driven opinions to message boards.

JohnnyRuin 11:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The UK

since as the article currently reads, tipping is not done in Wales, Northern England and Scotland, probably Northern Ireland (excepting by foreign visitors) -is it about to time to say tipping gets less common the further you get from London.GraemeLeggett 15:04, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

This is not a forum for discussing rants on tipping. Such messages may be deleted. Please discuss the article instead. Thank you.

Tipping in North America

The tipping epidemic in North America is so out of control it is making just "going out" practically unaffordable. There are now tip jars practically everywhere including at private beer vendors and stand-up bars. The whole concept of tipping for good service has been lost as a 15% tip is now expected for even very average or mediocre service. Perhaps in the past servers made poor wages but they now average at least $8 hour in Canada and with tips they can make as much or more as many professional people; for what is essentially a job requiring very little skill and no formal education. Take a table of six adults at a nice restaurant each spending $25 for an entree and $10 for wine. The total bill excluding tax will be $210. As is suggested in this article a 20% tip for large tables is advised. So during the two or so hours that this party are at this table (and while the server is most likely serving other tables) the server would "expect" a tip of $42! By my calculation, if we also add on $16 (2 hours @ $8/hr.) for regular wages, this individual will have earned a total of $58 or $29 per hour and that's assuming he or she receives no other tips from any other tables! That's about as much as a teacher would make; ridiculous! Plus it's not as if servers ever declare their entire income from tips so the vast majority of that $42 tip will be tax-free! Not to mention that many servers at a small restarant are a part-owner of the establishment or related to the owner. In my view, these people should not be tipped at all.

As for the suggestion that a tip of $1 per drink is proper, this is silly. Why would I tip $1 on a $4 bottle of beer (25%) when I have gotten up from my table walked to the bar and perhaps even waited in line for a drink. All the bartender has done is opened the beer, handed it to me and collected the money. People at retail stores do exactly this yet we don't tip them, so why a bartender? Perhaps a server who brings you a drink deserves a tip if the service is good.

The recommended levels of tipping in this article for Canada and the US are far too high, unless you are in a jurisdiction where wages are tips only, or much lower than minimum wage. I tip 10% for average service and 15% for very good to excellent service. At a buffet restaurant only a very token tip of perhaps $1 is warranted. Far cab fares I round up to the nearest dollar or perhaps tip an extra dollar. For any service that I have to initiate (ie.a stand up bar, purchasing an item) I do not tip at all, and see no reason to. If these people expect tips then people should start tipping the cashier at their local supermarket, they do the same thing. I do not tip the hotel maids at a North American hotel, though I do tip in Mexico where wages are very low and I certainly would not tip anyone for hailing a taxi for me nor a karaoke disc jockey. Where coat check is required I do not tip but if it is optional I might tip 50 cents or $1. For a personal service such as a haircut or station attendant washing my windows I might tip $1 or $2, regardless of the overall cost of the service. These rates of tipping are completely adequate and affordable, and this is all that should be expected.

I think the outrageous tips which have become expected by many North American workers are hurting the restaurant and bar industry by making dining out unaffordable for many people. The "15% rule" encourages dining in low quality fast-food restaurants (especially people with children) where tipping is not the current practice (though I wouldn't be surprised to see tip jars coming soon to the local burger joint!). As for the assertion if you can afford the meal then you can afford to tip well, this is complete hogwash. That's like saying if you can afford a car you can afford to drive everybody around who doesn't have a car. Moral of the story: Quit expecting something for nothing.

Outide of North America people are certainly more realistic when it comes to tipping practices. In Italy, only the odd bit of spare change is expected, you don't tip for a pint in England and in Mexico cab drivers do not expect any tip. Makes going abroad such a relief. --207.161.44.71 08:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with you on this, as someone who worked in the industry, at least in America, most waitstaff make $2.65 an hour, if they made $8 the cost of dining out would probably double. This is due in part to what the owners have to pay in social security, disability, and all the other fun charges a company has to pay. Depending on the size of the buisness(and the state it is in) for every dollar the employee makes the company give around $1.50 to the government. YMMV however...

I've worked in the industry as well, and I agree that tipping in the US is a ridiculous system. Further, last I checked, if your pay+tips comes out to less than minimum wage, your employer has to make up the difference. Is this no longer true, or not true in all states? 67.168.139.10 00:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Minimum wages in Canada are in the $6.50 to $8.50 ($7.60 in my place of residence) per hour range and the cost of dining out is roughly similar if not cheaper (due to currency conversion) than in the United States. Yes employers must contribute towards employees' pension plans and the national unemployment insurance scheme; that is a cost of doing business. Obviously when people are earning $2.65 per hour, which is not a living wage, tipping customs should be adjusted accordingly. In any event, servers in the US, from my own personal experience, tend to "bust their butts" somewhat more to earn their tips. I personally know servers here that make well over $30,000/year, do not work anywhere near a 40 hour workweek, and provide (my own opinion) inferior service to their American counterparts. I think the tipping practices in Australia and New Zealand are much better. There, workers are paid a reasonable wage and tipping is the exception rather than the rule.--207.161.44.78 01:12, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

I just read an external link to [2] from the article. I consider that until the American IRS or the Congress, whichever applies, abolishes the mandatory allocation of tips at restaurants that I just added to the article, the most complex American tipping custom is unlikely to go away while some employers of restaurants in poor neighborhoods have complained that they must frequently allocate tips to their workers because customers usually undertip them.--Jusjih 13:20, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Too many people don't understand that waiters in the US make half of the minimum wage. In Ohio, minimum wage is 5.25, so I make 2.13 an hour. Keep that in mind when you eat out. We have to pay rent, bills, buy food, gas, and in my case, pay for school off of what you leave on the table. Tips aren't just welcome, they're necessary. If you think otherwise, then you shouldn't be complaining that waiters expect tips. Complain that it's perfectly legal and almost completely universal to pay us half of the minimum wage, which is itself nearly impossible to live off of.

I completely concur with the original writer. I have had this discussion with many people lately. The general consensus is that tipping has gotten out of hand in the US (unless of course you happen to have worked in the service industry). You can't go into a pizza chain or sandwich shop to pick something for yourself without seeing a scribbled tip sign on an old can or jar. Nevermind the dirty looks if you don't contribute. The choice is often taken out of our hands with restaurants setting automatic "gratuity" charges. A pet peeve of mine is alcohol in a restaurant. Bottles of wine for example may be marked up 200 to 400 %. If I don't tip at least 15% on that - I get the dirty looks again. If it's a mandatory gratuity, I really feel ripped off. The assumption by many is that it's mandatory, regardless of the level of service. Even the Government has reinforced the idea that it's expected by imposing taxing on tips. Many of us would completely support seeing tipping abolished, and have restaurants or other services simply adjust their rates and pay employees an appropriate wage. Think of all the time that would be saved if the public didn't have to play games with this "custom". BW

Forced Added Gratuity

I have a question. I was at a restaurant, in a party of 2, and a gratuity of 18% was added. I inquired as to why, and I was told it is their policy. When I brought up the issue of bait & switch, I was told there was a sign outside--there was not. The manager refused to take off the gratuity. I called and left a complaint to be given to the general manager. I was also told their policy was to only add gratuity to parties of 15 or more.

On the following visit, when I got my check, I noticed a 15% gratuity was added. The same uncomfortable discussion was repeated with another assistant manager, and the gratuity was finally taken off. (I tipped $5, or about 15% anyways). I called once again to complain, and was told I would be banned from the restaurant.

My questions are:

-Isnt this an issue of bait & switch, where one price is advertized, and another price is switched in with a 15-18% surcharge? -Can a restaurant ban me? They advertisze, aren't they making a unilateral contract with the public (everyone, including me), and therefore denial of service to me would be in violation of that contract? -What are some effective manners in which I can persue this unjust, and potentially illegal business practice? Ztsmart 19:40, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Something definitely doesn't seem right. An establishment run that way simply wouldn't be worthy of my business, let alone repeat visits. Snailing a detailed, factual report to Zagat and to Triple A as well as your local Better Business Bureau seems like the thing to do. knoodelhed 11:52, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I've been working in the restaurant business for many years, and on the rare occasion where I've had managers allow a forced grat, it is usually due to the customers behavior. If the customer is rude or troublesome, and the server goes to the manager and pleads their case, occasionally a grat will be placed on the bill to compensate the server. This is very rarely done at most establishments. Resturants that will do it usually have higher tip outs to bussers and the bar, lus taxes taken out for a percentage of your sales. For example, if you check was $30, the grat is 5, the bar gets $1, the busser gets $1, and the goverment gets $.75. I agree that forced gratutity is rude, and perhaps not the best customer service option, but i've found it's better then have a waitress run into the parking lot and scream at cheap customers. Hopefully you found a better place to eat. --Poetrybetween 14:42, 17 April 2006 (UTC)