Talk:Turoyo language

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Contents 1 Turoyo a "Syriac" language? 2 Move to Tur Abdin Neo-Aramaic 3 Move to Surayt 4 Old move request

[edit] Turoyo a "Syriac" language?

Notwithstanding the fact that the Aramaic languages spoken by the Syriac people are sometimes referred to as "Syriac languages", I think it is technically incorrect to do so in an encyclopedia. Syriac was spoken in Edessa, whereas Turoyo was and is spoken in an area further to the East.

I think that, with reservations, it is alright to describe Turoyo as a Syriac language; after all, Turoye do so. Turoye generally refer to the classical language (Urhoyo) as Kthobonoyo (although only when spoken). In the Syriac language article I tried to make the point that the classical Aramaic of Edessa has strongly influenced the colloquial eastern Aramaic of Christians. In addition, Turoyo literature is a fairly new phenomenon: Syriac or Arabic would have been used in writing. I hold that modern Christian eastern Aramaic languages have a dual heritage: a genetic heritage to old regional Aramaic dialects, and a cultural heritage of Edessan Aramaic. I'm not sure that it is possible to split these strands, or whether that would be appropriate. Certainly, in the field of Neo-Aramaic literature, the Christian dialects are often referred to as Neo-Syriac. This and the self-referrence of Turoye as Suryoye suggests to me that the label, with reservation, is applicable. Gareth Hughes 20:23, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

In that case it might be more appropriate to link to Syriacs rather than Syriac language. As I understood it, in everyday speech, Suryoyo refers both to Edessan Aramaic and to the Tur Abdin vernacular (just as Süryanice does in Turkish). Indeed, Ktobonoyo is used when "Syriac proper" is meant. (By the way, shouldn't the b of Kthobonoyo also be spirantized?)

I guess in this case "Syriac" is more a matter of ethno-religious labelling than a matter of linguistics.

By the way, my Turoyo class started just today, so I hope to add some information about the language itself as the semestre progresses. Benne 21:03, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

The b in Kthobonoyo should technically be spirantised, but, in practice, this is not done by most speakers. Kthobonoyo is really spoken classical Syriac, as is taught to the students in the monasteries. Turoye generally call leshono Turoyo Suryoyo, and there exists a wide body of academic literature that calls the language a Syriac dialect/language (I've recently added one to the article). The influence of Urhoyo on Turoyo is massive, even if not genetic. It is general practice to refer to all Christian dialects of Eastern Aramaic as Syriacs, especially in writing: holding that Urhoyo is the Syriac par excellence. All the best with your mestaryonutho (that's Nuro's coinage for Syriac studies)! B-hubbo Gareth Hughes 21:38, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Tur Abdin Neo-Aramaic

I have noticed that among some Turabdinoye, the name Turoyo has a negative connotation (literally it means mountain language). I would like to suggest to change the name of the article to Tur Abdin Neo-Aramaic. ----Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 13:28, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose — I don't think there is any real evidence for negative conotations. Some Suryoye define Turoyo as 'not proper Syriac', but I believe most Turoye find the name is appropriate. All the literature on the language, academic and popular, calls it 'Turoyo'. 'Tur Abdin Neo-Aramaic' is a bit of fabrication. Such fabrications are used by Ethnologue for some other Neo-Aramaics, but that is only to avoid ambiguity. The suggestion of this as a new title is of no use: it has no basis in usage, and it confuses rather than clarifies. --Gareth Hughes 16:16, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by real evidence? Should I cite the Suryoye who'd prefer not to use the term? I've heard people from both Aramean and Assyrian sides state they'd rather not use the term Turoyo.

True, it is a bit of a fabrication, but so is Assyrian Neo-Aramaic; I have never heard that name in real life either. I wonder, what's so confusing about Tur Abdin Neo-Aramaic? It is perfectly clear what is meant by it: the modern Aramaic language spoken in Tur Abdin. ----Benne ['bɛnə] _(talk) 16:41, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

'Turoyo' is the widely used name for the language: it is by far the most common (Google the difference between the two names). As a Syriac specialist, if I came across an article titled 'Tur Abdin Neo-Aramaic', I would have to check to see if it really was about Turoyo. It would be interesting to have a list of sources that would support this move. --Gareth Hughes 17:01, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Surayt

We assyrians from Tur'Abdin did never, never, never called our langauge turoyo, nor did we call it suryoyo back in the old days. We didn't even use the word turoyo about ourselves. It's something new we have started with during the last century, imported from the mardelli word turani/torani. Surayt is the historical name for this language. This article must be replaced under the name Surayt. My grandpa used to say Surayt all the time, not turoyo or suryoyo. //Alfa

Hi Alfa! You are right when you say that Surayt is the old name for the language, and there has been lots written about where that name comes from — it's a very interesting name. Most of the speakers I know call it Suryoyo and refer to the classical language as Kthobonoyo. However, those who speak Kthobonoyo prefer to use the word Suryoyo for the classical language, and thus use Turoyo for the West Syriac language of Tur `Abdin. Turoyo is simply a geographical adjective, meaning to do with the Turo, but some Turoye have felt that because it was used by non-Turoye to describe them it is offensive. I don't believe that there is anything offensive in the name or that it is used with intent to offend. The problem with Surayt is that it is not often used by modern speakers to describe the language (yes, grandpas perhaps!). Also Turoyo has become the general word used in academic papers about the language. For example, Aziz Tezel, who is Turoyo, recognises problems with the naming of the language, but titled his useful paper on the language Comparative Etymological Studies in the Western Neo-Syriac (Ṭūrōyo) Lexicon. No one really wants to call the language Western Neo-Syriac, so we go back to the descriptive name Turoyo. — Gareth Hughes 09:59, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It's still unfair. After all, Surayt is the real name of this language. Why Assyrians have begun to say Suryoyo is because of 20th century church-politics. Many Assyrians (especially from Turkey) still feel it hard to say Suryoyo, it's like it doesn't come from the heart, a strange feeling describing something isn't like it should be. //Alfa.

Thank you for your thoughts, Alfa. However unfortunate it might be, Turoyo has become the name of the language in all literature about produced in English (and scholarly works in other languages). The article mentions that the language is called Ṣurayt, and that that name has a long history. However, as this is the English-language Wikipedia, articles are named after their common English names. For example, our article on Deutsch happens to be called German language, and our article on Nederlands is called Dutch language. — Gareth Hughes 11:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old move request

Please take any move requests, if controversial, to WP:RM. Patstuart^talk|edits 00:28, 26 December 2006 (UTC)