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Talk:United States Department of State - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Talk:United States Department of State

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I recognize that this entry is heavily propagandistic, and would like for someone else to take a stab at putting it in shape. I'd prefer to recuse myself from the case. ;-)

Also, there is quite a lot more information about various agencies within the U.S. Dept State at http://www.state.gov/r/pa/rls/dos/index.cfm?docid=436&clid=264 --KQ

my favorite propaganda bit is the 'we do it all with fewer employees than the city of Memphis!' gosh, those dedicated DoS employees! I cut "advances U.S. objectives and interests in shaping a freer, more secure, and more prosperous world" down to "advances U.S. objectives and interests in the world", which seems more NPOV. --MichaelTinkler

Similarly I changed "Creating jobs at home by opening markets abroad" to "Opening markets abroad". What might make your thing more NPOV, and it's probably spelled out elsewhere, is what the DoS defines as "freer, more secure, and more prosperous". Great examples for the doublespeak entry. --TheCunctator

Is it appropriate to refer to the Department's workforce as "small" (in the Duties and Responsibilities section)? It has 30,000 employees... - Walkiped 23:49, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I removed the "small workforce" references. The claim doesn't make sense in light of the fact that the Department has 30,000 employees. And, as MichaelTinkler notes above, it's a little propaganda-esque (not surprising, considering the Duties and Responsbilities section was copied right out of a State Department webpage talking about all the things the Department does). - Walkiped 04:59, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Civil Service vs. Foreign Service

All of the Department's employees are civil servants, part of the US Civil Service (Someone keeps adding sentences about "Foreign Service officers" as if they are the only employees in the Diplomatic Service. The truth is that the Diplomatic Service includes Foreign Service Officers, Foreign Service specialists, and many other categories of employees. Secretary Powell has made this clear in recent remarks. and implies that the Foreign Service is not part of the Civil Service. However, the US Code Title V defines the Civil Service to include both the Competitive Service and the Excepted Service. The Foreign Service is part of the Excepted Service.
THE FACT IS THAT OFFICERS CAN ONLY BE FROM THE FOREIGN SERVICE AND THAT IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE A CAREER AMBASSADOR, DCM, MANAGEMENT OFFICER, POLITICAL COUNSELOR, ECONOMIC COUNSELOR, CONSUL GENERAL, AND WITH THE EXCEPTION OF BRUSSELS, PUBLIC AFFAIRS COUNSELOR, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO BE A FORIEGN SERVICE OFFICER. SURE, THERE ARE DEFENSE ATTACHES WHO ARE FUNCTIONAL EQUIVALENTS, BUT THATS ABOUT IT. SPECIALISTS ARE ALSO PART OF THE FORIEGN SERVICE WITH SPECIFIC, SPECIALIZED FUNCTIONS. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.240.31.223 (talk)
The text in question was copied directly from a State Department webpage (after some NPOV and other editing), which makes a clear distinction between Civil Service and Foreign Service employees ("The Department of State conducts all of these activities with a small workforce comprised of Civil Service and Foreign Service employees."). It's true that US Code Title V, Part III, Subpart A, Chapter 21, Section 2101 appears to define the Foreign Service as part of the Civil Service, but it does so, "for the purpose of this title". So I'm not sure the definition extends beyond intepreting Title V of the U.S. Code. I also concede that the Foreign Service consists of more than just Foreign Service Officers, as Foreign Service specialists and Foreign Service Nationals are also part of the Foreign Service. But I don't think it's correct to say, "The Department of State conducts these activities with a workforce of Civil Service employees." Am I off-base? I'd appreciate your thoughts on this. - Walkiped 12:54, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Secretary of State appoints the members of the Service and in nearly every case, appoints an employee to the (Foreign) Service prior to assigning the person overseas. The silly controversy about "excursionists" was whipped up by a labor union known as "AFSA". They claim that the Secretary's actions in appointing members to the Foreign Service without AFSA's approval are illegal. Basically, any person who served in the State Department under the GS schedule prior to joining the Foreign Service is in AFSA's view, an "excursionist". AFSA is trying to have such assignments curtailed, and in some cases has been sucessful in pressuring the Secretary to terminate FS appointments. A well known case is the so called "LIMA DCM INCIDENT". Details can be found on various sites, including afsa.org, talesmag.com, and in the Washington Post back issues. As a neutral reference source, I suggest that Wikipedia refrain from adding references to these variouis personnel categories under this heading. If necessary, the dispute over "civil" and "foreign" servants/excursinists could be put somewhere else, perhaps under labor disputes. Statesman 12:32, 25Mar2005 (UTC)


The State Department has internal regulations known as the FAM (Foreign Affairs Manual).

Internally, it defines "civil service employees" as those employed under the GS salary schedule and "foreign service employees" as those who are members of the Foreign Service. This is only the State Departments internal nomenclature, not to be confused with the term "Civil Service" in the official legal sense as used throughout the USG. Maybe to avoid confusion and controversy, it would be better to delete the passage "The Department of State conducts these activities with a workforce of Civil Service employees." altogether. Alternatively, one could state that internally, the Dept. classifies employees as "civil" and "foreign" service, although this is probably not necessary.

Most importantly, under the current leadership, the policy has stressed the importance of working together as a team, that all members of the Diplomatic Service are equally valued, and that labels such as "FS", "GS", etc are not important.

FSO (Tokyo, Japan)

[edit] "Excursionists"

Is "excursionists" used by Foreign Service Officers as a dismissive term for political appointees? That's my guess, since "excurisonist" usually means tourist. If so, this article's use of the term seems obviously non-NPOV. -Hickoryhillster 15:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

After browsing a messageboard, http://www.talesmag.com/talkshop/foreign_service_life/, I get the distinct sense that this usage of the term "excursionist" is controversial, so I'm going to remove it. I suggest adding a section titled "Issues within the department," where there could be a paragraph explaining the differing opinions over overseas assignment for non FSOs, and this paragraph could explain who uses the term "excursionist" and why they do so. This section could also be a better home for a version of what is currently the final paragraph under "Duties and Responsibilities," which seems to hint at rank-and-file disatasifaction with the department leadership's level of assertiveness in dealing with other government departments. -Hickoryhillster 16:20, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure I would pay much attention to that message board. There is a mention in the Foreign Affairs Manual of Civil Service employees on excursion tours. Given that it is in the FAM, I am not sure that the use is offensive or unrecognized by the department. The common venacular in the department for Civil Service working overseas is to use excursion tours.

Here is the reference from the FAM

Appendices B and C identify specific criteria considered for those willing to serve at danger pay and designated greater hardship (15% differential or above) posts for Foreign Service employees and Civil Service employees serving on excursion tours."

3 FAM 3823

Internally, the State Department does use the terms "civil service employee" and "foreign service employee" separately. But according to the law, the Foreign Service is part of the Excepted Service, and the Excepted Service is part of the Civil Service. Thus members of the Foreign Service, and other US Diplomats are all civil servants.

Whether or not the term "excursionist" is PC is open to debate. The important point to remember is that the Secretary appoints "members of the Service" and once a person is appointed in the Service, that person becomes a "member of the Service", regardless of the personnel category under which he or she previously served. Therefore, the section about "civil service employees" is inaccurate and misleading. There are many categories of foreign service employees, and they all deserve equal respect. Furthermore, the FS is not the same as Diplomatic Service. The USG assignes diplomats abroad under various systems, not only as FS.

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