Talk:War-responsibility trials in Finland

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This article is written in poor english and should be looked at by a native speaker. Get-back-world-respect 15:50, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It also doesn't say anything about the trials being unlawfull and such. It should at least considered to mention here if most of finn think these men were "sijaiskärsijöitä" (someone who takes the blame for you). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.223.170.60 (talk • contribs).

[edit] Pre-emptive strike.... hmmm

(I moved this discussion here from Talk:Operation Barbarossa. -- Petri Krohn 10:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC))

Actually, the Soviet Air Force began attacking Finnish warships at 6:05 A.M. on 22 June 1941, hours before the Red Army had got orders to resist the German assault along the entire demarcation line in Poland. Two hours later also the Hangö batteries opened fire without the Finnish troops having made any move. [1] The author of the passage, mr Nordling refers to Hjalmar Procopé, Fällande dom som friar (Stockholm: Fahlcrantz & Gumælius 1946), p.121 as his source. Is it really clear that Finland had already made decision to enter the war (before June 22), or was this decision rather a result of Soviet strike? --Constanz - Talk 11:53, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Finns had definitely made the decision. Those responsible for the decision were later on trial at the war-responsibility trials in Finland. -- Petri Krohn 18:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Reference please as well. BTW, this trial is now regarded a show trial.--Constanz - Talk 11:31, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

"show trial"? An interesting point of view. You are welcome to discuss it at Talk:War-responsibility trials in Finland. The Finnish critisism of the trials has traditionally been based on the fact that they were an example of ex post facto law, not on the basis of the evidence presented or a calmed partiality of the court. -- Petri Krohn 15:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Not only on that, but also to the fact that Allied Control Commission presented a list of acceptable convictions to Paasikivi after the pre-decision of the court was presented which would have released Kivimäki and given only a small sentence to Tanner. Paasikivi contacted members of the court and pressured them to give wanted convictions. Only four members of the court resisted this pressure. And it was a show trial, even Paasikivi admitted it: Political necessity in a new political situation.

And due to way how the law regarding these trials were written, they excluded military leadership totally, especially Mannerheim and Heinrichs, who were more instrumental in negotiations with Germany than any in political leadership, so your assessment that those responsible were indicted is not correct.

For the decision, it could be said that military had made the decision but political structure was dragging their feets and setting conditions to Finnish participation. --Whiskey 22:51, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revanchist? After the Fall of Soviet Union?

The Finns considered the trials as a show trial not after the fall of Soviet Union but immediately after the convictions are given. For example the famous photo of the shop window in Helsinki, where the photos of the convicted were accompanied by the text "Sijaiskärsijämme" ("Those who suffer instead of us"). Also the preliminary decision of the court which were published was widely known, and Paasikivi's pressure against the court to change that after the Allied Control Commission contacted him. Paasikivi's opinions were referred soon afterwards both in his own texts and afterwards by biographists. The same effect made Social Democrats to choose convicted Väinö Tanner to their chairman decade later. Also the most thorough presentation of the issue (although certainly not neutral.;-)), Yrjö Soini's "Kuin Pietari hiilivalkealla", was published already 1956.

You are right that the political leadership was very quiet about the issue before the fall of the Soviet Union (See Finlandization), but it shouldn't be confused to the public opinion. --Whiskey 12:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

You are right about the 1950s. Finland saw an ideological revolution and cleanup only in the 1960s when the previous revanchist thinking was condemmed. The same revanchism has reemerged in the 1990s, (as evident in many Wikipeda articles writen by Finns, including Finlandization and previous versions of this article).

Public oppinion is however not encyclopidic. The kangaroo court interpretation has no academic support. If you want to keep this populist crap here, it must be presented in the proper context and and with the proper caveat. -- Petri Krohn 02:52, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

In fact the interpretation do have academic support. Dr. Penelope Kent has researched British Foreign Office documents, and found there that FO considered trials immediately show trials. At first they ordered British members of ACC not to touch an issue at all, as it would create inconvient questions at parliament, but later in the process when they wanted to retain Soviet friendship they decided to let ACC members to inform Finnish Foreign Ministry that sentences should be harsh enough. It was because they considered Finland lost cause to Soviets.

By the definition of the kangoroo court, and of the show trial, is that the indicted are already determined quilty, and only suitable conviction is to be determined. Number of Finnish historians (Well, no-one elsewhere have any interest in the issue...) like Hannu Rautkallio, Mikko Majander et.al. have reserarched the subject extensively, and based on the available documentation, including diaries of Paasikivi and Zhdanov, have come to the conclusion that the whole process was political, not judical. The court itself had only three judical appointee, but all the rest were politicians appointed by the parliament reflecting the relative sizes of different parliament groups. It wasn't a question about the quilty or not quilty, as it witnessed by British notice to Foreign Ministry or similar Russian notification to Paasikivi after the releasing preliminary verdict to Kivimäki was published. Paasikivi had to write a letter to the court (which was included to the court documentation) demanding harher sentences. Zhdanov wrote to his notes that: "If Tanner is removed, Social Democratic Party will shatter." Even if we do not make stand were the men quilty or innocent, the fact that government order forces the court to change verdict from innocent to guilty makes the whole process a show, not a proper trial. --Whiskey 10:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)