Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Proposals/2007/April

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1 Proposals, April 2007

[edit] Proposals, April 2007

If you create a stub type, please move its discussion to the April archive, add it to the list of stub types, and add it to the archive summary.

[edit] NEW PROPOSALS

[edit] UK-struct subcats

We have both by-type and by-region splits of UK-struct (which is oversized again) going on. Here's some possibilities for each:

Cat:United Kingdom historic house stubs
Cat:United Kingdom listed building stubs

and:

Cat:South West England building and structure stubs
Cat:South East England building and structure stubs
Cat:North West England building and structure stubs

All look viable, not giving exact counts as I'd have to add up lots of counties... Alai 05:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More Illinois geography subcats

Illinois-geo is bigger than ever, despite the splits per this earlier proposal. I suggest first of all, continuing with the USCB statistical area based splits:

Cat:Davenport-Moline-Rock Island geography stubs 62
Cat:Ottawa-Streator geography stubs 66

the following aren't quite there yet, but I'll "pre-propose" them now:

Cat:Champaign-Urbana geography stubs
Cat:Springfield MSA geography stubs
Cat:Galesburg MSA geography stubs
Cat:Charleston-Mattoon geography stubs

Much of the state isn't in a statistical area, though, or is only in single-county ones. So, based on less formal regions, I'll also suggest:

Template:Northern Illinois geography stubs, defined as in Northern Illinois
Template:Central Illinois geography stubs, defined as in Central Illinois
Template:Southern Illinois geography stubs, defined as the remainder of the state, roughly per Southern Illinois/Little Egypt (region).

I'll check with the IL WPJ that this at least vaguely reality checks. Alai 23:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cat:Pre-1930 drama film stubs

The '20s weren't quite over threshold, the '10s nowhere near (about 10, in fact), and the (previous) 00s have exactly one stub, so on established pattern of splitting the drama stubs by decade, and the meta-pattern of smooshing several little decades together to make one good category, I've created the above catch-all, with upmerged templates. Talking of the '00s, Cat:2000s drama film stubs is very nearly overfull... Ideally, we probably want to try to re-split by sub-genre (as easy and cheesy as it would be just to split by individual years). Alai 18:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cat:Russian actor stubs

66 articles currently using the double-upmerged {{Russia-actor-stub}}. Alai 06:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indian film subtypes

Cat:Hindi-language film stubs 361
Cat:Tamil-language film stubs 162
Cat:Telugu-language film stubs 52

We don't generally split films by country, but we have with Cat:Indian film stubs, perhaps on the logic of linguistic or marketplace considerations. Anyway, it's now oversized, so we might want to consider re-splitting by language. Otherwise, by-genre or by-decade would seem like options. Alai 16:22, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Support the split by language. Regards, Ganeshk (talk) 16:52, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Support the split by language Haphar 16:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment -- Hindi is a language, so saying Hindi-language is redundant. =Nichalp «Talk»= 17:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- I'm just following the permcat, Cat:Hindi-language films. If that's not ideal, I'd suggest CFDing that first. Alai 23:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm in two minds about this one: I see potential problems - it takes as a given that all flms of these languages are automatically Indian, though I suspect that some Sri Lankan films are likely to be in the Tamil language, to start with. There's the potential that films could be split by two dimensions with this one - language and country - whereas by decade may make for a more convenient split. Also, what form would the templates take - Hindu-film-stub or Hindu-India-film-stub? Grutness...wha? 02:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Support. Will make it easier for editors to find articles they're interested in and fix them. utcursch | talk 04:46, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Support and Comment Of course it is necessary to classify the Indian film stubs. However, as expressed above by Grutness, there may be a few problems. Apart from the case of Tamil, Bengali has a similar problem. Bengali films are made in both India and Bangladesh. So may be we need to make special consideration in case of Bengali and Tamil, by creating stubs like "Indian Bengali films", and "Bangladeshi Bengali films". Also needed is a stub for "Indian English films". IMO the stub should read like this", This is a stub on an Indian film in Bengali/ Hindi/ Tamil/ Assamese language... etc. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 09:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't propose an English language type, since the corresponding permcat, Cat:English language Indian films seems to be very lightly populated. If the categorisation is accurate, Malayalam, Bengali, Urdu and Kannada are all closer to the creation threshold (which is 60, but I'm assuming Telugu is a good bet for another 8 someplace), but none are over 30. Alai 06:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cat:Neuroanatomy stubs

I don't know much about neuroscience, but counting stubs isn't exactly brain surgery (ba-doom). There's 72 {{neuroscience-stub}}s in/under Cat:neuroanatomy, so this looks a plausible place to start. Alai 16:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cat:Historic Westminster constituencies in Ireland stubs

Cat:United Kingdom historical constituency stubs is oversized, these are comfortably big enough to be split off (130). (Stub-grammarians please do mangle the suggested category name to taste.) Scotland isn't quite viable, Wales is further off, England is big enough to be worth thinking of splitting by region (for which there are permcats), rather than en masse. (The North West, West Midlands and South East would all be immediately over 60.) Alai 15:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The conventional minimal mangle would be Cat:Historic Westminster constituency in Ireland stubs to eliminate the double plural. However, what do we mangle the template to? do we have any convention for stub templates relating to Ireland when it was part of the British Empire? {{Ireland-hist-constituency-stub}} would to me seem to at the very least include stub articles in Cat:Constituencies of the Parliament of Ireland (to 1800) and possibly be limited to just those (not that such a stub category would be viable at this time since the permcat has only 49 articles). Best I can think of is {{IrelandUK-hist-constituency-stub}} or {{Ireland-hist-Westminster-constituency-stub}} though neither appeals to me. Caerwine Caer’s whines 07:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

It's also somewhat conventional to get rid of the "in", but that looks like it'd be rather too painful in this instance, so I'll concur with your modification. The template I didn't even want to think about. A hyphen would seem more natural in the former case, but I have no strong preference between {{Ireland-UK-hist-constituency-stub}} or {{Ireland-hist-Westminster-constituency-stub}} (and no great love of either, and no better ideas.) Alai 17:50, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Baden-Württemberg geography sub-types

Another suddenly-large German state, conveniently also having a officially-defined regions:

Cat:Freiburg region geography stubs
Cat:Karlsruhe region geography stubs
Cat:Stuttgart region geography stubs
Cat:Tübingen region geography stubs

With upmerged per-kreis templates. (Anyone with an ueber-preference for having categories use parenthical disambiguation wheneven main articles do might prefer "Freiburg (region) geography stubs", but that seems a bit pointless here.) Alai 05:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I came to this page wanting to propose exactly the same! I second this idea. Poeloq 17:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Support - although can you spell it "Tubingen"? The "ü" in "Tübingen" may be against policy. Goldenrowley 04:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

See Tübingen (region). BTW, correct ASCIIfication would be "Tuebingen". Alai 15:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Support. No problem with the category name being at Tübingen, though a template at Tubingen (with possible redirect at Tübingen) is in line with what we usually do. Grutness...wha? 02:56, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Then what "we" usually do is deeply misguided. What's the point of all the hoo-hah about stub categories following the permcats if the templates -- the things people actually use -- are at random misspellings thereof? The template for Tübingen (kreis -- note observation about upmerged templates) really has to be at either "Tübingen" or "Tuebingen". If you really must have "Tubingen", for some reason that escapes me, then add that as a redirect. Alai 03:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Stub categories should follow permcats, sure, but since there are no permcat templates it's a bit mysterious suggesting that the arguments there can be applied to template cases. We went through this before recently, and other than one or two templates using ø, we didn't have any templates that used diacriticals. And that makes sense, for the very sensible reason that not all browsers can cope with them. Most of them don't even have redirects at the "correct" spellings. And if you think that having the standard spelling but eschewing all diacritical marks is random, then I suggest you look up the meaning of the word "random". Mind you, if you want to propose changing all the current templates into ones with diacritical ones, feel free. Grutness...wha? 03:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I hardly think it's "mysterious"; the term "disingenuous" springs to mind in reply, for some reason. Your oft-repeated (and I do mean "oft") mantra is for "guessability": stub templates, like permanent categories (and unlike stub categories, mind you, the context in which you traditionally incant it) actually do have to be "guessed" when they're being applied (if they're not going to be memorised or looked up), which is a pretty powerful argument for consistency in my mind. Not to say, for correctness, that being the spelling likely to be used by those actually familiar with the topic (and especially if they happen to have the local keyboards), whether or not they've looked at other material on Wikipedia. There may not be a permcat for Tübingen (district) yet, but there's highly likely to be one presently, per discussion at the relevant wikiproject, and it's highly likely to follow the name of the article. Shall we take that as read, or would you like to reconvene after the permcat's created? German has a standard spelling without diacritics. If you're going to make up your own, then OK, strike "random", and insert "arbitrary" (or a few other terms that I'll forbear from sharing for the moment). If we were discussing French accents or Swedish non-Latin characters (that don't have ASCII respellings); if I found your "browser" argument compelling (as opposed to reiterated); if several people hadn't showed up last time we "went through this" to tell you how to enable diacritics; and if there were anything wrong with using redirects from an ASCIIfied version, rather than to it, then your self-review of "very sensible" might be apt. But we're not, I don't, they did, and there isn't: hence it isn't. I'm very much inclined to just make all those moves, actually, rather than "proposing" them. (I don't recall much "process" being involved in this move, for example, notwithstanding there already being a redirect at the target, making the whole purported purpose entirely moot.) I see absolutely no case for the correctly-spelt versions being redlinks, if people have been following this alleged practice of creating templates at the ASCII-stripped version, and not even creating a redirect (so moving them would accomplish that much, even if you then moved them all back again). Alai 05:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

For once, I'll have to agree with Alai (tho I hope that fact doesn't make him change his mind). Once we get to such narrow stub types, the only people likely to be applying them are either people who regularly know and use the correct spellings or stub sorters sorting out a parent cat. In either case, guessing, isn't going to be a problem and at worst people who don't readily have available a means to type the diacritics can copy and paste or use the character inserter from the standard edit page. In the case of German there's also the additional fact that it has a standard way of going to the plain Latin alphabet. So in this case I favor a main template of {{Tübingen-geo-stub}}, a redirect from {{Tuebingen-geo-stub}}, and since I will concede that not all stub sorters will know or care about proper German orthography, a redirect from the misspelled {{Tubingen-geo-stub}} as well. Caerwine Caer’s whines 06:19, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Sure, German has its own version without diacriticals, but it's not used in English. You might as well say that those who can't spell Köln with diacriticals should use Koeln, since Cologne is clearly a misspelling. Similarly, to claim that it would be more logical, if we had a Nürnberg-stub to have its redirect at Nuernberg-stub than at Nuremburg-stub is - to use your word - disingenuous. And before you say that Tübingen is not known as Tubingen in English and therefore isn't comparable, I can point to quite a few atlases that would shopw that where diacriticals are not used in English (and this is, after all, an English language Wikipedia), the German alternative spelling is not used. By way of comparison, Māori is another language with the same situation. We don't have {{Māori-stub}} or the "correct" alternative {{Maaori-stub}} - we have {{Maori-stub}}, since that is (a) the version most widely known in English and (b) the correct version without a diacritical. Suddenly jumping to an alternative form not used in English would indeed be mysterious. As it happens, I have enabled diacriticals on Safari, but I no longer use the earlier browser I had for Wikipedia, since it was impossible to enable diacriticals on it. As for Botosani-stub, the only reason I moved it without proposal (notwithstanding that I was not aware of the redirect, which hadn't appeared in Special:Newpages), was because I thought you had made a mistake with your naming of it, and thought I was doing you a favour by making it uniform with other stub templates. I repeat: Not all browsers can use diacriticals. Standard English tends to eschew diacriticals. Where it does eschew then, a standard English spelling is used which is rarely that used in alternative forms of the language concerned. Grutness...wha? 06:52, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

In the case of both Cologne and Nuremburg (as well as Vienna, Moscow, Warsaw, Lisbon, Rome, Turin, and other well known foreign cites) there does happen to be a conventional English form that is not a simple repletion of the spelling of the city in those languages, even if as in the case of the examples I cited, there are no diacritics that are the cause. As for Māori, we actually do have {{Māori-stub}} (as a redirect you yourself created) and while the use of double vowels was one proposal for how to differentiate long vowels from short vowels in Māori, which in its original orthography lacked the distinction, nothing I checked indicates that it was ever made official, so that argument would seem rather spurious. To use such cases as a reason to insist that a diacriticless version of a foreign proper noun that uses diacritics and which has no conventional English spelling should be used in the main template instead of as a redirect, because somehow removing the diacritics makes it magically into the proper English-language form when the presence or lack of diacritics has little to nothing to do with whether foreign proper nouns have a distinct English form strikes me as rather disingenuous, to use a word that is being overused in this discussion. Caerwine Caer’s whines 08:05, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The double vowel is the form used by government departments in New Zealand, and also in many dictionaries of the Māori language. As for Tübingen, you miss the point I'm making. München is usually written in English as Munich, irrespective of the fact that there is a non-diacritical german alternative. Nürnberg is similarly usually written in English as Nuremburg - and Tübingen is similarly normally written as Tubingen. Given tha5t Tubingen is the English form of the name Tübingen, it makes no sense not to use it. As for MMāori-stubori-stub, I'd forgotten I'd made that! But, sigh, if there is enough support for the template itself being at Tübingen, I'm willing to go along with that - as long as there is a redirect from the standard English spelling Tubingen as well.Grutness...wha? 22:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

PS - it's also interesting to note that these stub types will be subtypes of {{BadenWurttemberg-geo-stub}}, not {{BadenWürttemberg-geo-stub}} - something which no-one has ever complained about! Grutness...wha? 22:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Support {{Tübingen-stub}} and the other three. Create redirects if anybody feel like doing so, but please no redirects that are just typos (e.g. "Wuerttemburg"). This will also solve the problem iff a location in Germany actually has the other name. I haven't checked but given the size of the German speaking region ... If a German sorts this material, he/she will expect the common spelling, and if a stub sorter does it, this person will know the proper template names anyway. Let's worry about Aachen/Aix-la-Chapelle, Köln/Cologne and Nürnberg/Nuremberg another day. Caerwine, I presume the "plain Latin alphabet" statement was a slip of the tongue? The English alphabet differs from the plain Latin one, just as is the case for almost all other languages using it (hint: "W") :) Valentinian ^{T / C} 08:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I said plain, not classical. We haue 26 basic Latin letters these days not the 23 that the Romans vsed. Caerwine Caer’s whines 09:14, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

iust as well, too! Grutness...wha? 22:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{Pakistan Military-stub}}

There are more then 30 articles about Pakistan Military which fall in this category.They are currently listed under different stub lists. Sulaimandaud Sulaimandaud 04:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"More than 30" isn't quite at the threshold of 60 used for stub splitting, though an upmerged template might be quite useful, which could always be given its own category if and when it reaches 60. It should be at {{Pakistan-mil-stub}}, BTW, not {{Pakistan Military-stub}}! Grutness...wha? 04:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Also suggest a {{Pakistan-mil-bio-stub}} template for Pakistan while we are at it.--Thomas.macmillan 21:03, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{chromalveolate-stub}}

Those articles that would use this (haptophyta, various brown algae, various water molds, some ciliates, etc.) are currently listed under protist-stub, which I feel is too general. Werothegreat 20:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{monorail-stub}}

Associated with my little wikiproject. Most monorail articles are currently stubs, but have a variety of tags.--MrFish^{Go Fish} 20:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

How many such stubs would that be? Alai 05:15, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I just counted 21.--MrFish^{Go Fish} 13:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a bit small; normal creation threshold would be 30 with a wikiproject, and 60 without. Plus there's the issue of whether railways are better sorted by location, rather than by type. Would you be amenable to creating just the template, upmerged for the time being, and double-stubbing with <country>-rail-stub? Alai 16:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes.--MrFish^{Go Fish} 15:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cat:1940s baseball pitcher stubs & Cat:1950s baseball pitcher stubs

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed creation of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was create

Per this proposal to un-upmerge 1960s and 1970s and per this SFD rename, I proposed un-umperging the 1940s and 1950s as well. This might even be considered speediable, but I wasn't sure. ~ Amalas rawr ^{=^_^=} 16:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason not to speedy (either by acclaim, or by precedent). Alai 16:46, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] {{Kyrgyzstan-bio-stub}}

As an upmerged template, at least - about 50-55 of the stubs in Cat:Kyrgyzstan stubs are bio-stubs. Grutness...wha? 07:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Support template and Support category iff there are found to be atleast 60 once template has been populated. (not much point creating the template finding 60+ articles having to come back immeaditly to ask for category). Waacstats 12:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Per Waacstats Valentinian ^{T / C} 22:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese Geography

I propose making some Japanese geography stubs more descriptive:

Municipality stubs, former Municipality stubs (many are out of date as of the last merger), railroad station stubs, etc.

I have never made a stub category before but have realized that there are way too many general "geography of ____ prefecture" stubs. Any help would be appreciated.

-- Ehroru 2 April 07:43 UST

I'm not quite clear what you're wanting here - Municipalities and former municipalities are categorised according to which prefecture they're in. Few if any of the municipalities would have enough articles to warrant their own stub categories (how many municipalities would have 60 articles?), and few if any of the prefectures has so many stubs that their categories need splitting. The "general 'geography of ___ prefecture' stubs" categories are for any articles about any geographical location within a prefecture - mountains, towns, villages, rivers - not just for the prefecture itself. And exactly what do you mean about them being "out of date"? Grutness...wha? 07:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

When I say "out of date", I am talking about the recent municipal mergers that have taken place across Japan. Many of the villages and towns listed are no longer officially in existence. I am not saying they should be stricken but I am saying that within a single prefecture there should possibly be splitting between current and former municipalities.

Ehroru 3 April 00:21 UST

- I still don't really understand why that would make the templates out of date unless some of these municipalities had moved to different prefectures due to border changes. And if they had, that would simply mean changing to another currently existing template, not creating a new one. The prefecture stub categories aren't in need of splitting, and if they were it would be by smaller areas within the prefectures - we certainly wouldn't have specific templates such as "ex-municipality-stub", since this isn't splitting a region by a subregion. Grutness...wha? 02:30, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

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