Talk:Xenomorph (Alien)

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Talk:Xenomporph (Alien)/Archive 1

Xenomorph (Alien) was a good article candidate, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. Once the objections listed below are addressed, the article can be renominated. You may also seek a review of the decision if you feel there was a mistake. Date of review: October 12, 2006

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Xenomorph (Alien) has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Contents 1 Archived old discussions: April 3, 2007 2 Article structure 3 Infobox 4 references in popular culture 5 Is the Cocoon Scene canon? 6 Origin of the species

[edit] Archived old discussions: April 3, 2007

This talk page was very long and many of the discussions were outdated, so I archived it at Talk:Xenomporph (Alien)/Archive 1 so we can continue with fresh discussions. IllaZilla 02:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article structure

I think the overall structure of the article is rather lacking. Basically I think we should follow the precedent set by other articles describing fictional characters, such as Spider-Man. Have a look at the overall format. There's a nice infobox, a history of the character's publication and appearances in various works, then it gets into the fictional character history/biography/etc. That's the way we should structure this article: by talking about the reality of the creature's creation (concept, design, special effects) and its use in the films (the main media in which the creature appears), then discussing its use/interpretations in other media, followed by the fictionalized descriptions of its physiology, etc. Plus I just think that infoboxes are very helpful and simplify things for a reader. I'd get to making one, but I have other commitments right now so it'll have to be later. But if anyone else wants to get the ball rolling, please have at it. IllaZilla 02:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe Spider-Man isn't the best example because he's primarily a print rather than film character, so here are some other good examples of articles about characters in film and television: Homer Simpson, The Doctor, and Spock. The overall structure of the Spock article is pretty good. IllaZilla 03:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

More good guidelines we should follow in improving the article: Wikipedia:Manual of Style (writing about fiction)

[edit] Infobox

I've been working on the creation of an infobox template for "Fictional alien races" or "Fictional alien species" that could be used for this article, for the Predator, and probably for others. Here's what I've come up with so far:

Xenomorph
An Alien as portrayed in the film Alien vs. Predator (2004)
Homeworld:	Unknown. First encountered in the film series on LV-426 in Alien (1979). Later portrayed in Alien vs. Predator (2004) as having been present on Earth as early as prehistoric times.
Base of Operations:	Mobile
Official Language:	Unknown. Sometimes portrayed in non-canon media as using echolocation and communicating via high-frequency sound waves.
Affiliation:	Unknown. Portrayed in almost all media as inherently hostile towards nearly all other forms of life.

Now, this uses a Star Trek template that I simply copied. I'm not a technical person and I have no idea how to create a new template for an infobox, nor how to create an independent infobox, and the pages on infoboxes don't seem to give any instruction. This box in its current form shouldn't be kept because it uses a Star Trek template and needs a template of its own to be created. It would be excellent if someone with technical knowledge could help with this, as I seem to have hit a dead end. Thoughts? IllaZilla 06:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] references in popular culture

SHouldn't there be a section for pop culture references? Or is it on another page, like for Alien itself? either way, don't forget Aylee from Sluggy Freelance.Mathwhiz90601 05:12, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The alien is part of popular culture. It's a movie character. And it's pointless to list references to it in numerous other areas of pop culture, unless the reference is definitely notable in its own right. Anyway, I'm pretty sure it would fall under WP:NOT#IINFO. IllaZilla 08:50, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is the Cocoon Scene canon?

Should we consider canonical the scene where Ripley finds Brett and Dallas cocooned and apparently mutating into eggs? If so then we should put more information about it, perhaps an image of the Brett-egg. I think it's plausible that an alien warrior can turn its prey into eggs when there's no Queen around, similar to how a laying worker bee can develop in a bee hive. Another theory is that this is vestigial remnant of a reproductive method the alien species had before they evolved Queens and that it doesn't work properly anymore. Another question is why Ripley didn't know where eggs come from in Aliens. Is it possible that she didn't realize Brett was turning into an egg? Is it possible that she forgot?218.215.130.98 04:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Deleted scenes are not canonical. Also, as I recall there is no mention that the 2 encased characters were "mutating into eggs" or anything of the sort (unless it was mentioned in the director commentary, which I haven't listened to in a couple of years). It's just as likely (if not more so) that they were being cocooned so that they could be implanted by facehuggers, as the Aliens did to the colonists in Aliens, to the scientists in Alien Resurrection, and to the exploration team in Alien vs. Predator. Or just that they were being stored to be eaten later. As to your Ripley question, the scene was deleted and wasn't ever officially shown until the "Director's Cut" included in the Alien Quadrilogy set in 2003, 24 years after the original film was shown in theaters. Therfore it's perfectly acceptable that Ripley has no idea where the eggs come from until she encounters the Queen in Aliens.

Of course, this is all speculation since the scene was deleted and is never explained. Therefore although it might be worth mentioning the scene in the Alien article, it doesn't deserve mentioning here as any discussion of ideas/theories on the subject would violate WP:ATT/WP:NOR. -IllaZilla 03:28, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Whether or not there is an in-universe explanation for the "mutating into eggs" or not, that was at least the out-of-universe intent when they made the set. (Besides, Cameron's movie made the queen.)

Maybe the article needs to take an approach similar to genesis and the creation of Eve. I don't think it's our job as wikipedians to make judgments over what is canonical or not in a situation like this so much as it is our job to remain consistent on how to deal with the inconsistencies that arise when assembling an article. Or deal with it like the newborn. It was in the movie and it was another way for the aliens to reproduce. Was it canon or not, well that was not my decision (but I do think it was wikipedia's decision), but my opinion is that it was a poor story point. Anyway, what I'm eventually getting at is that whatever is decided, coolness or innovation and convenience should not be factors in the choice over whether or not it is canonical because it is not really our choice to make. --Trakon 22:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that deleted scenes are not canon. But now that the cocoon scene has been included in the Director's Cut it is NO LONGER a deleted scene. So my question is whether or not it is consistent with Aliens. Watch the scene again. It can be argued that Dallas is simply stuck to the wall but Brett is definitely mutating into something that is either an egg or looks a lot like an egg. It is a lot bigger than an egg though. The visual evidence is fairly clear and the idea of denying it and assuming they were just stuck to the wall is a very uncommon interpretation.218.215.130.98 04:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Just because it's been included in an altered version of the film released 24 years after the original doesn't make the scene canon. Sequels are based on theatrical releases, not deleted scenes. Since the scene we're referring to didn't exist in the original Alien, it wasn't used as a basis for scenes in Aliens and therefore exists outside the continuity of the films, making it non-canon. If you consider all deleted scenes that are later re-inserted into "special editions" of films as no longer being deleted, then you get into a storytelling nightmare as you have multiple versions of almost every film that often contradict one another (consider Star Wars...you'd have at least 4 versions of Episode IV alone!). You can't consider all later revisions of a film as carrying equal weight in the overall narrative. The original released version almost always take precedence as far as storytelling goes, especially since that is the version that sequels are based on, not later "special editions." The scene is still "deleted" from the theatrical release, which is the main source of continuity and canon. As for Brett "definitely mutating into something that is either an egg or looks a lot like an egg," that is speculation (whether it is a common interpretation or not), and falls under the description of original research. What we need to do here is review Ridley Scott's commentary on the scene and see what his intentions were for it, if any. Then we can adequately discuss them in the article with a reference. -IllaZilla 04:27, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. Please sign your posts by typing 4 tildes (~~~~). You can also do this by clicking on the signature button above the edit bar (next to the "No W" symbol) or clicking on the 4 tildes next to "Sign your username" just below and to the right of the "Save Page" button. -IllaZilla 04:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The Director's Cut didn't exist until 2003 but now that it does exist, the cocoon scene has become well known and it may be referred to in future sequels. The Special Edition of Aliens wasn't shown in theatres but is widely considered canon nonetheless. In fact it came out on DVD first. When it comes to the Star Wars movies and Star Trek The Motion Picture, the latest versions are considered canon. When it comes to Alien, both the theatrical version and the Director's Cut were released on the same DVD so they are both the latest version. I think Alien The Director's Cut should be considered canon as long as it doesn't contradict the other movies.218.215.130.98 04:48, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I too want to know what Ridley Scott says in the commentary for the Director's Cut. But this commentary is only available on the Region 1 DVD so I can't get it. I've asked about this on several forums but no one has answered. I've heard a rumour that Ridley Scott said the egg that Brett was turning into would have a queen facehugger in it. Can anyone here confirm this and give an exact quote?218.215.130.98 05:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I'll give you that Star Wars is a completely different animal, since those films were re-released both in theaters and on video in several different versions. Also, with Alien we're dealing with sequels written by different writers and directed by different directors, versus Star Wars in which all the films were more or less Lucas' projects. However, I disagree with you that "the cocoon scene has become well known and it may be referred to in future sequels." Only those who have seen the Director's Cut will be aware of the scene, and this is a small fraction of the total number of people who have seen the theatrical version of Alien in theaters, on television, and on video since 1979. None of the 4 other films in the series have referenced it, and the issue of how the Alien's eggs are created was explained in Aliens via James Cameron's addition of the Queen, which is the plot device that has been used in all the films (and nearly all other media) since. I also disagree that the special edition is "widely considered canon." No other media in the Aliens series that I know of, whether films, books, comics, etc. references the scene or considers it canon (though I admit my knowledge is restricted mostly to the films). The Director's Cut has only been in place for 4 years. The original film has been in place for 28 years and has had 4 sequels and many secondary media based on it, without the inclusion of this scene. Remember, we're talking about sequels that are made by different directors, so they're not resorting (yet) to referring to each others' deleted scenes. But look, we're straying too far from topic here:

What we need is a consensus on how to incorporate deleted scenes and special editions into the articles. Let's take a look at how a featured article does it: Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope#Special Edition. They have a couple of short paragraphs which describe the later versions of the film and mention the most significant changes and other important aspects. Let's model our articles after that, and worry less about the canon status of particular deleted scenes. I think we ought to structure our articles around the stories presented in the original releases of the films, then discuss the special editions and other revisions in a later, concise section. -IllaZilla 05:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't have time to watch/listen to the commentary right now but I'll get to it within the next few days & we'll discuss how to include it in the articles. However, I can virtually guarantee you that it doesn't make any mention of Queens or queen facehuggers, since the alien queen wasn't even invented until the sequel, by a different writing/creative team & director. -IllaZilla 05:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the species

The idea that Xenomorphs were created by the Space Jockeys comes from fan-fiction, not literature. I've edited the page. I'd also like to point out that the term "Space Jockeys" is fan-made. In official sources the term "Space Jockey was always singular and referred to the individual. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 218.215.130.98 (talk) 01:22, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

I went ahead and cleaned up the section and removed the Queen section as it appeared to be entirely fan speculation. The space jokey bit is straight out of the DVD commentary so I think it is fine. --Daniel J. Leivick 03:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

In the DVD commentary Ridley Scott say that the alien eggs were used as biological weapons by the Space Jockey's race. He doesn't say they were created by the Space Jockey's race. Or am I mistaken?218.215.130.98 04:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm I'm actually not sure, I would have to check. --Daniel J. Leivick 03:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your changes. I also think that we should eliminate the term "Space Jockey" as much as possible, since it's never mentioned in the films. It's just a nameless, mysterious alien. I seem to recall Ridley Scott using the term later in the commentary included in the Alien Quadrilogy set, in which case it might be appropriate to mention it in this capacity, inasmuch as it was a term used by the production team (possibly after the fact) to identify the nameless creature. Regardless, I think that in all cases we should strive to avoid using neologisms or fan-created terms, even if they are widely used & accepted, unless they are attributable to a reliable source. This would include terms like "The Derelict," the names of most of the "castes" such as "Praetorian" and "Pred-alien" unless they are specifically labeled that in the video games & other tertiary source material, and to a lesser extent terms like "Facehugger" and "Chestburster" unless these are the terms the directors and other production staff used to refer to them. Not to resurrect an old argument, but I also disapprove of using the term "Xenomorph" as a designation for the Alien creatures, since they are only referred to as this once in the entire series and the designation is quickly dismissed by the other characters, whereas Ripley refers to it/them as "an Alien"/"Aliens" several times in the series (Aliens & Alien³, most notably). -IllaZilla 03:44, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The terms 'Pilot' and 'Space Jockey' are official since they were mentioned in the director's commentary and production documentaries. However they were always singular, never plural. I suggest we change 'Space Jockeys' to 'Space Jockey's race'. The term Xenomorph was used as the official name of the alien species in the novel Aliens DNA War. It even had a capital X.218.215.130.98 04:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

That's fine if we can cite that it is referred to as this by the production team, but the fact is that the term is never actually used in the film. So what we ought to do is mention, with a reference, that the production team referred to the creature as the "Space Jockey" and mention Ridley Scott's postulations about the creature's possible connection to the Aliens. Leave it at that. There's no need to expound on the subject or use the term repeatedly throughout the article as it only applies to a single scene in a series of 5 films that we're trying to synthesize here (not including the creature's appearances in secondary & tertiary media). -IllaZilla 03:57, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

As to your addition about "Xenomorph," the novel is at best a secondary source and its status as canon in the overall series is questionable. We really need to have a separate discussion about what is considered canon in this series of media, but briefly I would suggest that it goes:

1. The films (including AVP & excluding deleted scenes)
2. Officially licensed comic books & novels
3. Video games
4. Everything else

Deleted scenes and director/production team commentary are certainly worth including in an encyclopedic discussion of the films, but the theatrical releases of the films have priority over everything else as far as canoninity is concerned. Director's Cuts, extended editions, etc. should be discussed, but not explicity implied as canon since sequels are based on theatrical releases and not on deleted scenes. -IllaZilla 04:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)