Talk:Zuko/Archive 1

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Archives Archive 1

Contents 1 Detail 2 His mother 3 Reasoning for including shipping? 4 Relationship with Katara 5 Zuko's age

Detail

Hi...shouldn't this page include a picture of Zuko as he is seen in the second season???? You know...with HAIR....just a thought....and yes, I'd do it myself but I suck at editing pages...so could someone do it for me please!?!?!?! Thanx! Aelita the Angel June 2, 2006 7:04 pm

His mother

His mother was a Princess. Married to Prince Ozai, therefore Princess by her husband's right! Unlike her daughter, Azula, who is a Princess through birthright/blood.

Question: Do you mean him by chance? I mean, this is Zuko's board.... (Sayasha)

--Yes, I meant his mother.

Also, someone changed her name to Fire Lady Ursa, but she did not ascend the throne with her husband. She left before he became Fire Lord.

Technically if she is still alive they would be married, so I'd say she's still the Fire Lady (???) - H2P

No because she left and wasn't crowned with her husband. So she never ascended to that title.

Okay, STOP IT! Stop changing her name to Fire Lady Ursa! She was never crowned as the Fire Lord's official consort because she left before he was crowned! You're pissing me off!

Agreed. Even if she is still alive, which is unknown, she was never crowned as a Fire Lady; the last position she officially held was that of Princess regardless of her currently being alive or dead. Prototime 22:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, I imagine that it totally depends on whether she's still alive or not. Cause, if she's alive, then she's still married to Ozai, which makes her Fire Lady/Queen (whatever you wanna call it). But, she was never actually CROWNED Fire Lady, so...24.154.137.15 20:54, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Reasoning for including shipping?

This is as good a page as any for me to ask on, with the "Zutara" mention, I have to say something. I do realize that Wikipedia doesn't have to worry about space constraints when deciding what can and cannot go into it, but to what extent should fan-shipping be included in this articles? If I write a fanfic about Aang and Zuko becoming lovers, and call it "Zukang" shipping, and it picked up in popularity, with more writing such pairing in fanfics, would this be worth mentioning on Zuko's and Aang's pages?

Has this been covered on Wikipedia somewhere I'm unaware of? I checked the shipping (fandom) page and its associated talk page, but didn't catch anything about the inclusion of mention about shipping on fictional character pages.

I wouldn't expect Bill Gates's page to suggest that fanfic writers like to pair him up with Martha Stewart (assuming such fanfics were written and popular).

Lesoria 04:28, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

You people have too much time on your hands...--BorisFromStockdale 04:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Ursa didn't leave, she died! She volunteered to be killed in Zuko's stead. Get it RIGHT, you boneheads!

First, I’d suggest that you review Wikipedia’s policy regarding personal attacks. I think you’ll find things work better when you don’t call other editors names. Secondly, that Ursa died was never said or shown on screen. It is, admittedly, a popular theory, but it isn’t fact.--Fyre2387 02:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Relationship with Katara

Now look, I know that the Zutara thing sounds pretty farfetched, and its pretty obvious that the people writing this article are biased towards the Kataang thing, but please show a little more respect towards Zutara. I know that there is no solid evidence for Zutara, but the evidence for Kataang is completely coincidental. I will try to explain this, the first time Aang thinks of Katara as a romantic interest was in the Fourtune teller, and then Aunt Wu tells Katara that she will marry a powerful bender, and then at the end of the episode they point to Aang via "Sometimes I forget how powerful a bender Aang is." My point being is that why give such a vauge clue with "powerful bender" and immediatley point to Aang, in the same episode Aang falls in love with Katara ? And they continue this with the cave of two lovers, lets face it, we know they wanted us to think Aang and Katara kissed, but there is no solid evidence that they did, why would they do that? Now I know that all the clues point to Aang, but I remeber the Harry Potter series (Spolier Ahead) that only had a slight mention of Harry/Ginny in the begining when Ginny had a crush on Harry, and it was countinued to make it look like a girlish crush, and then Ginny moved on to more boyfriends, and then BAM!! Harry/Ginny became Cannon. There are other things I could say about this that I wont but let me leave with this, Katara and Sokka were the first two to find Aangs, and they have been friends ever since there meeting, but when Aang and Katara first saw each other, the didnt really think of eachother in that way. They've been through so much, the could practicly be brother and sister. Now Katara and Zuko have been eneimes since day 1, and been bareknuckle fighting since day 2, this kind of relation ship could go many different ways, I dont know who said this, but what they said was "the person you know best, is your enemy." and I know who said this, "People fight, and sometimes get married, and do a much different kind of fighting after that." C.S Lewis. I know that a lot of people will hate me for saying this, some will call me a noob, but hey, its all good. And if it turns out that the Katang thing is for real, Hey no hard feelings.

Answer: How about instead we don't include theorized relationships.

Better Answer: WP:DELUSION. Pacific Coast Highway ^{blah • my tracks} 16:15, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Please. It's an unnecessary concession to Zuko/Katara shippers to have Katara listed on Zuko's page at all considering they don't actually have any meaningful connection or relationship in the canon. Raceberry 00:52, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

About every Avatar character article is chockfull of fancruft. Some major cleaning up might be in order. This shipping nonsense is little more than fan fiction. In WP articles, it's embarassing. --Antrophica 23:41, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Special attention obviously needs to be paid to the bios for Aang, Katara, Zuko, and Toph. Also, I've seen at least one edit war in the Mai bio over whether she likes Zuko that resulted in a parenthetical aside in one sentence to the effect of "SHE STILL LIKES HIM" that specifically contradicted the rest of the sentence which was implying that she doesn't. Embarassing is right. --Raceberry 03:03, 23 May 2006 (UTC) ^talk

Agreed as well. I've cleaned up this page and the Katara page a bit a couple weeks back or so, but much still needs to be done. I'd be interested in doing more. Who's up for some multi-page ship-burning? Prototime 05:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

You don't have to ask me twice. Especially since I checked the Katara page today and someone has readded a bunch of stuff about "Zutara" to the the Prince Zuko part of her "Relationships" section. Honestly, I think that the ship-burning should start with removing people from characters' relationship sections who only have meaningful relationships/connections in fanfiction. For instance, right now, with all of the bias that used to be in it removed, the Katara section of Zuko's bio is just a recap of the few interactions they've had, which are just Zuko-looking-for-Aang stuff. I mean, Sokka and Zuko fight twice notably in the pilot, Sokka insults him in Bato of the Water Tribe and vocally supports leaving him to die in Seige of the North, but Sokka doesn't make an appearance in Zuko's relationship section. Basically, if we're going to put every person that a character has had interactions with on their character page, then fine, but it certainly shouldn't be done selectively just because people happen to ship a pair. I've also been considering doing a clean up of the episode pages which tend to be full of more fancruft and lots of speculation and conjecture under the "Trivia" sections. They're also not that grammatically tight. Raceberry 06:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC) ^talk

Half of the "Relationships" section is too much speculation. If no one else beats me to it, I'll get to taking out the trash. --Antrophica 11:41, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia = Facts

Shipping = Fiction

By this understanding, Zutara should not be even mentioned because we've seen nothing canonical to support something like that. However, the stuff about Aang and Katara should be listed (like the crush, the "kiss", Fortunteller, etc.) because it has happened and contributes to many of the episodes. Nothing between Katara and or Zuko has (and, come on, be serious, ever will) happened therefore it shouldn't be part of their bio. --H2P 2:32, 28 May 2006

Agreed with all statements above. Virtually all the Avatar pages have conjecture of some kind, most notably shipping. Heck, I just removed more shipping crud from this page, the Katara page (Talk:Katara), and the Sokka page (Talk:Sokka). It's almost tempting to start a Wikiproject:Avatar to clean up this huge mess. Prototime 23:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, your all right, when I wrote this it had a million different ships on it, and I am new so I didnt really think about the whole neutrality thing, thank you guys for cleaning this crap up, I'm new, My bad.

Avatar=Fiction, Peace --St.Gameractucs Hulk 19:32, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for stating the glaringly obvious. Eban 23:44, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Well guys, what I originally intended a passing statement may just become a reality. Check out Talk:Avatar: The Last Airbender for information on a potential WikiProject that, should it get off the ground, will ideally serve as a device to reduce this and many other problems concerning the content and strucutre of pages relating to Avatar: The Last Airbender on Wikipedia. Prototime 23:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

The WikiProject is now official; check it out at Wikipedia:WikiProject Avatar: The Last Airbender. I hope to see everyone there! Prototime 16:52, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I personally saw no romantic feelings between the two however i've noticed that he doesn't taunt or insult her as much as he used to. one of the big things i've noticed about Zuko is his respect for his enemies he might bad mouth them but for some reason i see that he has a sense of sportsmanship about fighting them espicially Aang and Katara

This is most likely due to concentration during fighting. Any looking into his character that he hasn't stated himself is speculation.H2P 20:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

My mistake i shall endevour not to put speculation in this acticle. still what i say definantly seems more likely than the idea that Zuko is in love with Katara, still i realize that yes it is speculation.

One question, where do you get this "proof" from? It seems like a bunch of coincidences mixed together. Pacific Coast Highway ^{(blah • Closed Captioned)} 23:21, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

• I usually try no to get involved in these shipping conversations, cause they can get pretty messy (no, I don't thinking shipping should be included in articles), but to build on what a previous user has said regarding Zutara: I think it's a fair-enough theory, and one that I support whole-heartedly. I agree, there have been many...STRAIGHT-FORWARD hints at Kataang, but there have also been many subtle signs for Zutara...most of which a viewer wouldn't usually take in until Zutara actually happens, unless they were looking for it. I'm gonna leave you with that. 24.154.137.15 21:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Zuko's age

Ok, as it stated int eh 1st season, he was 14 when banished. Now, in season 2, he had his 3 year mark of being banished. Check my math, but that equals 17 years old. So stop deleting the part that says he's not 17! ~Sayasha

I tend to think that he's 17 by now too, but it would probably resolve the issue if you could reference where it was specifically stated (either on the show or from some other official source) that he was 14 during his Agni Kai. I know it's assumed, but I don't recall where it was explicitly stated. --Raceberry 03:09, 23 May 2006 (UTC)^talk

Well I know Nick.com says Zuko was 16 when they show started and in the episode where Zuko dueled Zhao he said he'd been hunting the Avatar for 2 years now, making him 14 when he was sent into exile. If we add the 3 years Zuko now says he's been exiled to the 14 years old he must've been when he was we can assume he is now 17 years old.--Sam132289 02:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I know that, which is why I generally assume that he is 17, but that entire thing is thrown off if, say, Zuko's birthday is in the summertime. Since summer hasn't come around yet on the show he wouldn't be 17 yet and it doesn't contradict anything that's been stated. Which is why the only way to know for sure if he's 17 now, three years since his banishment, is to know how old he was then. Of course, I don't honestly care either way and I think it's pretty insignificant a detail, but since someone felt it warranted discussion/dispute then it should be acknowledged that there's room for it to be disputed. Raceberry 05:40, 27 May 2006 (UTC)^talk

Yeah that's true too, but wouldn't he still be 17 years old? Maybe I'm just confused but I mean he'd would have to be 14 no matter what when he got sent into exile if he was 16 when the show started. Nick said that he was so that's all we have to work with. And if that's the case there's no way around it 16 (age) - 2 (banishment) = 14 (age at banishment; A.O.B). Now, if you took that 14 (A.O.B.) + 3 years (banished) = 17 (current age), see what I mean? Maybe my math is just wrong, or the way I'm doing it, but I don't see how it would really matter when his birthday was considering that even if I were to say I myself am 16, the same age as Zuko, I would've been 14 2 years ago. I'll use his age because it's easier to show, but anyways 2 years ago from this date (May 28, 2006) I would have to be 14 years old, even if my birthday was today, tomorrow, or yesterday I'd still be 14. Get it? If it were yesterday I would've just turned 16 then, and would've just turned 14, 2 years ago. If it were today I would've turned 16 today and I would've just became 14, 2 years ago too. Lastly, if it were tomorrow I would be 16 currently and STILL would've been 14 then as well (sure I turn 15 the next day but see what I'm mean?) So wouldn't he HAVE to be 17?? I mean a year is a year and his birthday would've passed like 3 times wouldn't it? Making him 17?--Sam132289 19:07, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

No, he doesn't HAVE to be 17. Your math isn't wrong. 14 + 2 is 16 and 14 + 3 is 17. You're just not considering it correctly.

"I were to say I myself am 16, the same age as Zuko, I would've been 14 2 years ago. I'll use his age because it's easier to show, but anyways 2 years ago from this date (May 28, 2006) I would have to be 14 years old, even if my birthday was today, tomorrow, or yesterday I'd still be 14."

No, you wouldn't. Because if your birthday is May 28, two years ago on May 27th or any other date before May 28th, you'd still be 13.

Let me put it to you like this: We know for a fact that Zuko was 16 years old when current canon started in the winter. We know for a fact that the third anniversary of his Agni Kai just passed in the beginning of Book Two, which means his Agni Kai was in the spring. That is *all* that we know factually.

So, let's say for instance (using the Gregorian calendar for the sake of simplicity), that Zuko's Agni Kai was in March and his birthday is in June and the canon started in December. If Zuko was 13 during his Agni Kai in March, then come December two years later (i.e. the start of the canon), he would be 16 years old because his June birthday would have passed three times since his Agni Kai. But come the third anniversary of his Agni Kai the following March (i.e. the start of Book Two), he would *still* be 16 years old because his birthday wouldn't be until June.

Basically, it's stated that he's 16 and his Agni Kai was 2 years ago when the show began, but it is never directly stated that he was 14 during his Agni Kai. And if he wasn't 14 during his Agni Kai, the only thing that we know for a fact was exactly 3 years ago, then he's not necessarily 17 now. Raceberry 10:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly. Because of this, it simply cannot be assumed that he is 17, despite anyone's superior math skills. This is why I changed reverted the age to 16 a while back... sorry it took me a while to respond.Prototime 22:51, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Equally you cannot assume he's only 16. It hasn't been exactly two years and without further information it's not possible for any of us to know for sure. Therefore I say his age ought be listed as 16 (or 17). At the moment we don't know, and until we see him say his age or celebrate a birthday we're not likely to. Eban 23:23, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I think we should stick with 16 until we're explicitly told otherwise, but I can settle for that. Prototime 05:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Where did the "(Turning 17 in late Book 3 or early beginning of Book 4)" come from? It's amazing how often these things update and some of the things people try to pawn off as fact. Eban 17:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Huh. It hasn't even been confirmed that there is a book 4. Prototime 22:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok, this si getting out of hand. Think about it like this. If Azula is 2 years YOUNGER then Zuko, and she's 15, then 15=2=17, not 15+2=16. For tose of you who know math, check it, if you wish. But he is 17, not 16! ~Sayasha

Where does it say she's 2 years younger and where does it say she's 15? H2P 22:13, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Nowhere. The only reference to Azula's age I've ever heard of was the creators reportedly citing her as the same age as Sokka at Comicon last year. Raceberry 13:43, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The only verifiable information concerning his age that we have is Iroh's mentioning his age being 16 years old in the first episode. Until we have concrete proof that his age has since changed, his age on this article should reflect what information we do know. Prototime 21:12, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

But if you put 2 and 2 together, then you know that he's 17! They just about say it in the episode if you listen correctly! Though you dont want to admit it, you know that he is 17! If you can give me logical proof, that he is still 16, then I will drop it. bu ttill then, he is still 17-years-old, and I will keep changing it t say 17-years-old! Nick.com says that he is 16 in the first season. If in the 2nd season, it is known that he was banished 3 years prior, then he has to be 17 now! And think about this. It says Azula is the same age as Sokka. If there is a 2 reay difference in Azula and Zuko's age, then Zuko is 17.~Sayasha

They never say any such thing in the episode. The only thing they ever say in any episode regarding Zuko's age is that he was 16 when the show began. It doesn't matter if his Agni Kai was 3 years ago because you have no proof that he was 14 during his Agni Kai. You just assume that he was. Nor has any verifiable source ever said that Zuko is two years older than Azula. We don't have to prove that he's 16. Until they either state that a year has passed since the beginning of the show or Zuko celebrates a birthday then there's nothing to support your conclusion that he's 17 so he keeps the only age that has ever canonically been ascribed to him. Stop changing his age to 17 unless you can provide an actual verifiable source that states that he is 17 years old as of season two, and not just your flawed logic. Raceberry 13:47, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Please, let's not make an edit war out of this, Saysha. We don't know what his age was at his Agni Kai; we cannot assume he was 14, meaning we cannot assume he turned 17 now. Until there is actual verifiable information on either of these possibilities, we must stick with the canon. Otherwise, you're just making assumptions and inserting your point of view, neither of which belong on this page. Prototime 16:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Well if he was 14 at the agni kai he would be 17 now. In The Avatar State Iroh says it's the third anniversary. Eban 22:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Nevermind, just finished reading the rest of this nonsense. Don't mind me. Eban 23:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Shay, our entire WikiProject is devoted to keeping these pages clean of all forms of speculation and to clean them up to represent all the information that has been presented to us. I'll be watching all the episodes in order soon to get quotes and a list of animals. Any information I find about Zuko's age I will present. From my current knowledge, however, I have not seen anything that supports the theory that Zuko has had a birthday since the pilot. Know that until we find canonical evidence supporting otherwise, there will be at least 5 people at all times ready to revert your changes. H2P 05:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I can prove that he is 17, using the show. Corect me at any time. Iroh mentions that Zuko is 16. In episode 3, Zuko make that "If my Father thinks the rest of the world will fallow him willingly, the he's a fool" comment to Zhao. Zhao interns, says "TWO YEARS at sea have done little to temper your tounge". Now, fastforward to season 2. The 3 year anaversery HAS to mean that he is, infact 17. Because as you said, "He has not celebrated a BirthDay in the show." For all we know, his BirthDay was during the weeks fallowing the Seige of the North, which only continude with Iroh comment. Now, feel free to go back and check my work. Episode 3, 20, 21, and what ever episode you wish that mentions has age, as there are a few. Now, good night. Oh, it's Sayasha, not Saysha. ^^ ~Sayasha

Conversely, for all we know he just turned 16 over the summer before the show started. Just because Zhao says two years does not mean that it was EXACTLY two years at that point, indeed, it would be impossible for it to have been exactly two years and then for the third anniversary to be in the beginning of season two, because seasons one and two take place over the space of a few months. What you've stated is not proof. You're still missing the point. As long as we don't know when Zuko's birthday is and a year hasn't passed since the show began then you cannot know whether he's turned 17 yet because you do not know that he was 14 during his Agni Kai. You know that it was two years before. That does not mean he was 14. He could have been 13 and then turned 14 months AFTER his Agni Kai. Which would mean that he wouldn't turn 17 until three years later months AFTER the anniversary of his Agni Kai, thus meaning that the anniversary of his Agni Kai would mean nothing in relation to how old he is. This has been explained multiple times in multiple ways and it's still true. You cannot verify that he is 17, therefore his age stays listed as 16 until his being 17 can be verified. Raceberry 10:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

When Avatar started, Nick.com said "Sixteen-year-old". In episode 8 for example, Iroh said Zuko was 16. This was also the Winter Sostice episode. Then, season 2, had the first few days of spring. Zuko's birthday doesnt have to fall in the fall or summer just because he's a Fire Bender.~Sayasha

You aren't even listening to us anymore. Zhao's comment has nothing to do with Zuko's birthday, only the timeframe of the Agni Kai and we have no idea how old he was then. Hell, he could have turned 16 the day before Boy in the Iceberg. The fact is, there are 12 months in a year meaning that while the Agni Kai took place in the beginning of Spring, that does not mean his birthday was in the months before that. At the same time we don't know how old Zuko was during the Agni Kai which also causes problems. Only until the first year anniversary of Aang's arrival will we know Zuko to have gotten a year older. Now stop editing the posts, I already told you that there are multiples of us that will just change it right back. It's not easy to update the Avatar related pages if we keep having to babysit this one.

Ok, tell me. How do we know that the Agni Ki was in Spring? Hm? For all we know, it was in the Summer. And thats going by your facts. Now, do you really think that Iroh would let a 13 year old into the War Room? And on the Zhao comment, ya, it has relavince here. This is the steps to prove Zuko is 17.
1. Go to Nick.com and select Avatar on the bottom menu.
2. Select characters, and choose Zuko.
3. Read the part where it says:"sixteen-year-old Zuko s a big bully".
4. Then got watch episode 3, where Zuko and Zhao are talking in the tent.(It's in the first 10 minutes)
5. Watch episode 8.(It's in the title)
6. minus 16 and 2, to get 14.
7. Now watch episode 21, where Zuko first come in.(I have no idea where it is...)
8. Watch episode 28.(The beggining)
Now, you should gather that Zuko is 16 in the first season, banished 2 years prier to episode 3, that the next season that they are in in the first seaon is Winter, once again, that Zuko is 16, 2-16=14, in episode 21 they have been gone, floating for weeks, Zuko has been banished for 3 years, and that Spring is now starting. ~Sayasha

It's the shows facts that the Agni Kai was in the Spring or late Winter. The anniversary was in Avatar State which took place between the end of winter and spring. And you are still not listening to facts about months of the year. It's not winter "once again", they are in the NORTH POLE. "Now, do you really think that Iroh would let a 13 year old into the War Room?" Why not, he is future prince and would eventually need experience as a tactician, why would only one year make a difference? And no, the Anniversary of the Agni Kai has NO relevence to Zuko's age because we don't know his birthday.

Amazingly, I'm getting tierd of arguing, but still, I wont admit I'm wrong. Fallow the shows logic. It's all in there. Even my friend who is blind, and hard of hearing can understand that Zuko is 17, just from the show. Just watch the show, and tell me that Zuko cant be 17. The creators of Avatar said that there is a 2 year difference from Azula and Zuko. I don thtink that Azula is 14. And I know it's not winter once again. Thats a "No duh!" part. No one is inplying that it is winter again, but you who is mentioning it. And for my reason behind the War Room part, Zuko, if he hadnt been banished, would never rule during the war. Sences the war was to end soon. And, the current Fire Lord chooses who his/her heir will be. Ozai didnt have to choose Zuko to be the next Fire Lord.~Sayasha

Fuck it. I'm not arguing this anymore if you aren't going to listen. You have no canonical evidence so you might as well stop because every time you change it we'll simply change it back.

It's better to try and fail, then to not try at all. A simple code of my religion. And I'm fallowing the shows info. Even my mom can tell you that he's 17. And she has only seen 5 episodes. All my evidance flows, unlike yours. Mine is logical, fallowing the story's plot. Yours, is all speculational. It's not me that needs to go back, it is you. Even if Zuko's BirthDay was the day before The Boy in the IceBerg, he would still be 17. ~By now, you know who I am

---

Okay. Let's look at what your argument for his age being 17 is deductively:

• Argument: Statement #1:
  • Ground 1: Zuko is known to be 16 in the first season, and
  • Ground 2: Zuko is known to be "at sea" for approximately 2 years, and
  • Ground 3: 16 - 2 = 14
  • Claim: Therefore, Zuko is 14 at the time of his banishment.

Assuming the above claim is true, we can then move on to next statement, which that claim now serving as one of the grounds.

• Argument: Statement #2:
  • Ground 1: Zuko is 14 at the time of his banishment, and
  • Ground 2: Zuko's 3rd anniversary of when he was banished falls in the first episode of Season 2,
  • Claim: Therefore, Zuko is 17 is Season 2.

Now, the issue that I have and most of the other editors here have is concerning is that the grounds in Statement #1 do not prove its claim; specifically, that more grounds than have been presented are required to make the claim. The following are my counterarguments:

• Counterargument: Statement #1
  • Ground 1: Zhao stated Zuko has been at sea for 2 years at the beginning of Season 1, and
  • Ground 2: Zuko's 3rd-year anniversary occured a few months later,
  • Claim: Therefore, Zuko has been banished for longer than 2 exact years at the beginning of Season 1.

• Counterargument: Statement #2
  • Ground 1: Zuko is over the exact age of 16 during Season 1 (let A represent his true age), and
  • Ground 2: Zuko has been banished for longer than 2 years at the beginning of Season 1 (let T represent the actual amount of time passed), and
  • Ground 3: A - T = Zuko's exact age at time of banishment (X)
  • Claim: X > 14 OR X < 14, with either result being equally plausible.

To illustrate this last claim, assume that his true age (A) at the beginning of Season 1 is 16 years, 6 months (A = 16.5 years), and that the exact time that he's been banished (T) is 2 years, 6 months (T = 2.5). Now, let's do the math:

A - T = X

16.5 - 2.5 = 14

In this case, it is shown that he was indeed 14 years old when he banished, and thus would be 17 three years later. However, consider the following equally plausible scenario: assume that his exact age at the beginning of Season 1 (A) is 16 years, 3 months (A = 16.25) and that the exact time that he's been banished (T) is 2 years, 9 months (T = 2.75). Now, let's do the math:

A - T = X

16.25 - 2.75 = 13.5

If Zuko is 13 and a half years old at the time of his banishment, then quite obviously, it does not equate that his 3rd year anniversary means that he is 17; it means that he is 16 and a half.

Now, because we do not know A or T, and all we can do is guess, we cannot say for certain what his true age is, being it 16 or 17. However, we do know that Zuko is 16 in season 1, and for the purposes of Wikipedia we cannot assume that he has become 17 (as such is unverifiable information), and as such, the age listed on the page should remain 16 to represent the knowledge we do know, which is that Zuko being 16 years of age in the series is the only verifiable information we have concerning his age.

Peace. Prototime 02:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

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(No argument meant this time!) Why, since as you stated, he could 16 or 17, dont we just put "Age: 16/17"? That would settle this argument. I mean, I see the logic you put up there. Which is the FIRST set of logic I've seen. So, since he could be eathor or, why dont we just leave it like it is? (16/17) ~Sayasha

I'd prefer to keep it 16 for the sake of strict verifiability, but I can see your reasoning for mentioning that it's possible he's turned 17, since based on the above logic it is at least possible, and I can compromise on that. His age now reads "16 (possibly 17 by Season 2)". Of course, I can't speak for how the other editors feel, and they may disagree with any inclusion of 17. At least, though, you now understand my logic of why he isn't definetley 17. :) Prototime 04:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Not tryign to be.. well, I dont know what you'll call it, but I understood your logic. I just didnt really agree with it, like many dont agree with mine. Thats all really. But I do agree with the compermise, though my friend doesnt. But ohwell. Both logics are matched. I think I can get her to rap her head around that. ^_^~Sayasha

First? That's what we've been saying the entire time only we havn't been using algebra to explain it. Anyway, as long as it's put out there that the only information known is that he is 16, I'm fine with that. -H2P

^_^ Sorry, I cant understand math unless it's in Algebra. I had to have my friend type up most of my math. I think that could be 1 reason that this took over 2 weeks. ^_~~Sayasha

Ok, we had an agreemant. 16 (possibly 17 by Season 2). I couldnt have changed it because I was out for surgery, so dont start useing foul lanuage on a website that teachers request students to use for projects! And those who are changing it, until someone says Zuko is 17, IT STAYS LIKE THAT!

I guess that makes sense, but on the other hand, by that logic, shouldn't Sokka's page say (possibly 16 by season 2) and Katara's page say (possibly 15 by season 2) etc.?

• Bangs head on wall* H2P 23:22, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

My sentiments exactly... the only reason that Zuko's deserves any "special" attention is because he had a *three year anniversary* of being at sea, and it's uncertain if he's 13 or 14 at the time of his banishment. None of the other characters have such a milestone that suggest it's possible that they aged; the simple change between seasons isn't enough to warrant the possibility of aging for other characters--it just so happens that the beginning of season 2 and Zuko's third-year anniversary happen on the same episode, and that's why it says it's possible by season 2. Now can we please just let this issue die all ready? Prototime 01:21, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

OKAY!!!!!!! YOU GUYS ARE DRIVING ME CRAZY!!!!!!! I WANNA KNOW HOW OLD ZUKO IS!!!!!!!! I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE LOGIC!!!!!! JUST ASK THE F**KING AVATAR PRODUCERS!!!!!!!!!!! JEESE!!!!!!! THEY'LL TELL YOU!!!! IN FACT, F**K THIS, I'M GONNA GO ASK THEM MYSELF!!!!!! WHEN I KNOW, YOU'LL KNOW!!!!!! THERE!!!!!! STOP ARGUING!!!!! (sorry...I'll try to control myself next time...) Zutara-Princess

• Well, really, if you think about it, it's chronologically impossible for Zuko to be 16, based on evidence from the show. In "The Southern Air Temple", Zuko said that he'd been hunting the Avatar for two years, since the day of his banishment. This was later revealed to be the day of the Agni Kai. Iroh later comments that Zuko has "done some foolish things in [his] sixteen years", so we know he was sixteen at the time. Sixteen minus two is fourteen, meaning that he MUST have been fourteen on the day of the Agni Kai. Three years have passed since then, as of "The Avatar State", meaning that he's DEFINATELY 17 now...which may mean that other main characters (Sokka, in particular) may have had a birthday since season one began. Besides, several months have passed since season two began, so either way, he's turned seventeen by now.

Oh, to the user above...I'm not trying to be rude, but the cursing isn't appreciated. 24.154.137.15 21:03, 30 October 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Please read all the notes above. There is still no actual proof that Zuko has aged. H2P ^{(Yell at me for what I've done)} 06:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Okay, wow; that was ALOT of reading. Honestly, I think Zuko would probably be 17 if he was a real person. But he's not, and so we can't really know, because there probably isn't a set day where every character in the story ages like in real life. If it was my desision I would say "16 (perhaps 17)," because this is all we really know, he's been named 16, but could perhaps be 17, simple as that.

• Hey, H2P. I'm kinda in the middle of moving right now, so I don't really have time to read all of these comments at the moment (I'll try to check it out later, if I have time). But anyway, I admit, I'm no math wiz; I'm SO right-brained it's ridiculous, but I still don't see how Zuko could possibly be sixteen. I mean...the math's right there. I realize you're trying to keep all options open, but I just don't see how it's possible (again, literature is my thing, not math, so...). Yeah, the time of year in which the Agni Kai took place could be taken into consideration, but since several months have passed since season two began, I don't think it really matters at this point.24.154.137.15 00:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven

Right, my eyes have officially rolled into the back of my head now. Everyone trying to change his name to seventeen: stop. Just stop. You guys can talk about math all you want (I'm a math guy myself), but flashing some addition's not gonna work here. We don't know how old Zuko was when he was banished, k? We know he WAS sixteen, and haven't gotten any confirmation that his birthday has come around since the beginning of the series. We just know that he's been banished for over three years. I don't see this huge debate going on in Aang's page. Why not? The kid WAS 112 when the series started, how do we know his birthday hasn't happened? Or Katara's or Sokka's? Heck, WHY DOES THE AGE MATTER SO MUCH!? JUST ACCEPT WHAT NICK.COM TELLS YOU AND STOP MAKING IT LOOK LIKE IT'S SUCH A BIG DEAL! Y BCZ 01:03, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

• I agree. Personally, I think they've ALL had a birthday, but nobody discusses all that. Why don't they just make it "sixteen (possibly seventeen)"? That would make everybody happy. I guess it's good to know, but it doesn't impact the show, really. The only reason you'd NEED to know about it is if you need the information for your fanfiction/art, in which case, since it's fanfiction, nobody cares if it's a little off because it's YOUR opinion. RIGHT ON, Y BCZ!!! It's REALLY not that big of a deal. We'll live.24.154.137.15 02:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)Arowen Half-Elven