Talk:F Market

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Contents 1 Confusion on PCC Car Origin 2 Use of trolleybuses 3 Would the E line run PCCs? 4 The map 5 Regarding the new museum 6 Article name change?

[edit] Confusion on PCC Car Origin

The article says:

Included in the equipment are:

• PCC streetcars from:
  • San Francisco
  • Boston
  • Philadelphia
  • Illinois
  • Los Angeles
  • Kansas City, MO
  • Cincinnati
  • Chicago
  • Louisville
  • Baltimore

I can see why someone might think this, because the F line operates PCC cars in many city's color schemes, including (probably) all of these. Unfortunately all isn't quite as it seems; the majority of the operating PCC cars come from the 14 1946 built single-ended cars that Muni bought from Philadelphia in 1994. There are also 3 original San Francisco double-ended PCC cars in operation. Between them, these cars are painted in the color's of cities that once operated the PCC car, but that doesn't mean they actually came from there.

Muni has recently purchased 11 more PCC cars from the Newark Subway, and has other San Francisco area PCC cars, but I don't believe any of these are yet in service. Confirmation for all this can be found on the Market Street Railway website linked from the article.

Now to try and work out how to put this into the article. -- Chris j wood 23:29, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You're correct; armed with your information, I went back and read the brochure again and found the column in the table listing the PCC cars was headed "Representing". Thanks for the correction. I've put the list of represented cities back in again, but using your clarified language.

Atlant 13:35, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That is fine. I meant to say thanks for making such a good start on this article; hope my 'improvements' are ok with you. Seems kind of strange that the three people actually contributing to this article live in Boston, Baltimore and England. :-) -- Chris j wood 16:45, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Your improvements are great, and caught an obvious error that I had made! With regard to where we're all writing from, well, San Francisco has that effect on people. I think if this were an ideal world, we'd all spend a lot more time there, perhaps commuting from Boston, Baltimore, and England. On the other hand, speaking just for Boston, we do have some hills, a big bay nearby, an Italian district not unlike North Beach, a small Chinatown, and now we even have a signature bridge, even if it isn't a Golden Gate or Bay Bridge. So for now, I'm "making-do" :-).

Atlant 17:13, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Use of trolleybuses

The article says:

Muni operates a large electric trolleybus fleet whose catenaries are compatible with the overhead cables that power F Market streetcars. These buses are occasionally pressed into service on the F Market line, particularly if a streetcar has broken down somewhere on the track and other streetcars cannot get around it.

I don't understand this. The F Market line (like most electric streetcar lines) operates with a single trolley-wire and trolley-pole, using the rails as the return electric current path. Trolleybuses on the other hand need two trolley-poles and wires.

Of course, a fair amount of Market Street is wired for use by parallel trolleybus routes, so limited substitution may be possible there. The Embarcadero certainly isn't so wired, and I'm not sure about the Castro end of the line. So in general, I don't think trolleybuses could substitute for F Market streetcars over the full route.

The only other possibility is that it is technically possible for a trolleybus to use streetcar overhead by towing a 'skate' in the grooved streetcar rail, but that is a pretty unusual solution and I'd be surprised if Muni would try it in modern traffic.

I'm not sure what to do about this. Can anyone throw any light on this?. -- Chris j wood 00:03, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

That's a tough one. ;) The current generation of trolleybuses used in SF are able to run quite far on internal battery power. I was once on a #30 bus when power on the trolley wires failed. It made it all the way from somewhere out beyond Galileo High to Columbus and Powell before the batteries finally ran dry. I could imagine that you could run a fair way 'round the Embarcadero even if there aren't any "return" wires, and farther if there were "recharging" stations. Perhaps an expert will come along and clear this up for us.

Atlant 00:53, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Chris, this happened to me when I was in San Francisco in March 2004: I was waiting for the F Market at Fisherman's Wharf for quite a while, and someone told me that a streetcar had broken down and was blocking traffic. A few minutes later a standard Muni bus appeared and drove us along the F route down the Embarcadero, through the reserved right of way, and onto Market (where I got off, since I was transferring to the N Judah). I *thought* that it was a trollybus, but I suppose I could be misremembering and it could have been a standard diesel bus. Usually it's easy to tell because the trollybuses are so much quieter, but because the pavement around F line tracks is cobbled, the tires running on the cobblestones made quiet a racket.

As an additional data point: I'm certain that the destinaton sign on the front of the bus indicated that it was an F, and it was a standard Muni rollsign (not one of the newer electronic signs). That stuck in my mind because it made me think that this was apparently not unusual for there to be bus substitution on this line. --Jfruh 01:04, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From Rick Laubscher, President, Market Street Railway 23:05 23 March 2005

While the Market Street segment of the F-line is wired for trolley coach operation, and there is a turning loop near the F-line Castro terminal (used by its predecessor, the 8-Market trolley coach line), trolley coaches do not substitute for streetcars on this route. Diesel buses do. The F-line has been planned for more than 20 years, and in service for 10 (at least along Market Street) so even the oldest operating Muni diesel buses have "F-Market" on their Mylar roll signs (as they do the other streetcar lines for similar subsitution reasons). Any F-line buses you rode on The Embarcadero would have had to have been diesel. In the past year, bus substitution has unfortunately been common, due to the extremely high passenger demand on the line, which has overwhelmed the fleet. When the ex-Newark streetcars begin arriving late in 2005, this situation will ease.

Well that is pretty much a definative response; I've removed the reference to trolley coach substitution. Speaking personally, can I congratulate Rick and his team on a wonderful job of bringing the F line back, -- Chris j wood 00:15, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Would the E line run PCCs?

I've heard the E line, as discussed in this article, proposed for years. However, the Muni Metro extension from Embarcadero to SBC Park is a modern light rail line, not a streetcar line, with high-platform above-ground stations, if I'm remembering correctly. Thus, wouldn't the proposed E Line need to run standard LRVs rather than PCCs?

--Jfruh 14:40, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

All the references I've seen refer to it as running heritage cars from the same fleet as the F line (albeit obviously an enlarged fleet). See http://www.streetcar.org/tomorrow/vision/index.html for more on this. Don't forget that the existing F line already has short high-platforms at (almost) all stops for ADA reasons, so there should be no problem in the heritage cars running through the high-platform stations between the subway mouth and the Caltrain depot. I'm guessing that they will actually stop (for ambulant passengers) at adjacent low-level platforms; although I don't recall reading anything specific on this. -- Chris j wood 16:34, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I should look at my references more thoroughly. On left of the page I quote the url of above are some photographs of the low platforms, which in at least one case is complete. Also I see they are talking about extending beyond Caltrain. I'm kind of impressed by these photos; when I wrote the section on extensions I was feeling a bit cynical about when and if the E would actually happen (as you say, it has been discussed for years without happening). But if they have actually built the platforms, perhaps it is go this time. -- Chris j wood 16:54, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I still wonder about running heritage cars through the Fort Mason tunnel though. Generally cars running through tunnels need to meet stricter fire regulations than normal; an example being London's Docklands Light Railway which was forced to replace its entire fleet of more or less brand new LRVs when it opened a tunnelled extension. Presumably the PCC cars will be ok, as San Francisco, Newark and Philedelphia have all had streetcar subways for longer than they have had PCCs, but the Peter Witt and vintage fleets would seem doubtful given the extensive use of wood in their bodies. -- Chris j wood 17:11, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

From Rick Laubscher, President, Market Street Railway 23:00, 23 March 2005

The current plan is to use the same mix of vintage cars on the E-line as on the F-line: PCCs, Milan trams, and older streetcars. (The emerging convention in the US is to call authentic antique streetcars "vintage" and replicas "heritage" so I'll stick with that.) As mentioned, low platforms with wheelchair ramps have already been built on the right side of the N-line trackage on the southern Embarcadero (which uses center high platforms, unsuitable for single-end vintage cars, which have no left-side doors. We also anticipate no problems operating vintage streetcars through the short (three block) Fort Mason Tunnel, which is currently undergoing a seismic evaluation, the early results of which indicate no serious issues.

[edit] The map

Darkcore, thank you for the very nice map!

Atlant 20:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding the new museum

The San Francisco Railway Museum will be opening soon. Can more information be added here regarding exhibits and educational programs like the teaching trolley? n2xjk 19:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The San Francisco Railway Museum Wikipedia article is now up. Please feel free to add information to that page. Iandailey 18:06, 26 February 2007

[edit] Article name change?

Shouldn't this article be titled "F Market and Wharves" instead of "F Market"? That's the official title Muni has given to the line (see Muni Metro Map and Muni website). Iandailey 18:19, 26 February 2007