Talk:Faith and rationality

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Not sure what the point of this article is or what it's doing in an encyclopedia but I'll leave it in deference to Larry as founder of Wikipedia.

Contents 1 Article cleanup 2 generally good 3 Definition of faith 4 Neutrality Dispute 4.1 Mediator response: Faith and rationality 5 misplacement of "only" 6 Rationalism 7 cleanup

[edit] Article cleanup

OK, I'm taking first swack at this. I'll make sure the current content remains available in the page history.--FeloniousMonk 21:35, 17 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] generally good

great edits for the most part ... why was "faith as unparsimonious" deleted? Ungtss 13:38, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

also, regarding solipsism ... is it fair to describe these views as solipsism? solipsism holds that only the self exists and everything is a function of the mind -- but classical foundationalism holds that while many things cannot be proven, many other beliefs may be reasonably held by other means, including faith. shall we distinguish here? Ungtss 16:44, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

The article now is starting to read like a litany of apologetics, not an encyclopedia article. "Faith as unparsimonious" was deleted because the rule of parsimony is not central to the rationalist objections to faith being rational and so is seldom made.

"A is A" and a solipsism is a solipsism. Identifying it as such is no more inappropriate than saying that rationality precludes the supernatural. It does not need to be attributed as a POV; the elench that it is self-evident is a matter deductive logic, not a POV. FeloniousMonk 17:52, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

the argument is not solipsism. "Solipsism is the metaphysical belief that only oneself exists, and that "existence" just means being a part of one's own mental states — all objects, people, etc, that one experiences are merely parts of one's own mind." Classical foundationalism does not hold that opinion. it holds the opinion that faith underlies all knowledge because reason depends on faith, so that we can know things other than the fact that we exist, despite the fact that we can't prove them. you are misdefining solipsism and misapplying it here. Ungtss 17:57, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

<<"Faith as unparsimonious" was deleted because the rule of parsimony is not central to the rationalist objections to faith being rational and so is seldom made.>>

i beg to differ. have a look at God of the gaps, Ockham's razor and religion for a start. Ungtss 17:59, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of faith

The definition of faith given in the article is very narrow and unsatisfactory. There are two general approaches to the notion of faith within religious thought: cognitive and non-cognitive.

• Cognitive: faith is sometimes regarded as being a kind of belief (either lacking the justification necessary for knowledge, or with an object that isn't understood), sometimes as being a cognitive state distinct from either belief or knowledge.
• Non-cognitive: faith is either a way of seeing the world or a way of living one's life. In both cases, the appeal is to faith as trust.

The relationship between faith and rationality is very different in each of these approaches to faith, so the distinctions are crucial. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:04, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

SS keeps reverting part of the summary from this:

"Faith is generally defined either as belief not grounded in evidence and reason or as belief in what cannot be understood, while rationality is belief grounded in logic and/or material evidence."

to this:

"Faith is generally defined as belief beyond or surpassing physical evidence or secular reasoning, while rationality is belief based on logic and/or material evidence."

His latest edit summary was: "restore neutral and accurate intro". Could he (or anyone else) explain what's PoV or inaccurate about the version from which he's reverting? Could he have the courtesy of placing his reasons here? I wrote the previous explanatory comment over a month ago, and he's simply ignored it. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:41, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps he was trying to employ irony... Anyway, his definition is grossly inaccurate, and as such, I'll revert it on sight. FeloniousMonk 16:36, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neutrality Dispute

This article needs to be cleaned up to meet Wiki's nPOV. <personal attack removed by FeloniousMonk> As it reads, it heavily favors rationality and (sometimes subtly) puts down faith.--Jason Gastrich 18:15, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for putting this back up. I never launched a personal attack, though. <personal attack removed by KillerChihuahua> --Jason Gastrich 19:33, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Indeed you have. And I've reverted your attempt to hide the evidence. FeloniousMonk 20:30, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Jason, you need to stop [1]. Do not delete the comments of others from talk pages. FeloniousMonk 20:36, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I will stop, but I deleted the things above because they have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Furthermore, they may tarnish someone's objectivity in the matter. You do want people to come and be objective, yes? --Jason Gastrich 20:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

• First, there needs to be consistency in the verbiage to indicate rationality is opposed to religious faith. That's what this article seems to be about; which leads into my second point.
• It needs to be made known and discussed how even rationality assumes or believes certain things by faith. For instance, the person who rejects faith and embraces rationality doesn't test a chair before he/she sits on it. They believe it will keep them from falling. More examples such as these can be cited to show their faith in non-religious things.--Jason Gastrich 20:31, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
• Since this is a neutrality discussion, we need to put the neutrality discussion tag on the main page of this article. --Jason Gastrich 20:47, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

This NPOV dispute is specious, completely without merit. Its motivation is transparent. The last person to substantially rework this article was neither I nor Markkbilbo, but Mel Etitis, who is an Oxford philosophy professor. I think we can trust his opinion and contributions to be fair, neutral and informed. The NPOV objection here reeks of sour grapes. FeloniousMonk 20:49, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Let's not concern ourselves with smells and appeals to authority. Let's concern ourselves with the issue at hand. With all due respect to everyone involved (even the Philosophy professor), this entry can be improved.--Jason Gastrich 20:53, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

That's one opinion. The motives for raising the NPOV issue are central to whether it is well-founded and objective, responsible editors will judge for themselves. FeloniousMonk 21:12, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

That is also a misapplication of "appeal to authority." I suggest reading Appeal to authority. They have a very good example in the article concerning Linus Pauling who made claims outside his field. Appealing to him as an authority on the medicinal efficacy of vitamen C does amount to an "appeal to authority" fallacy. Appealing to expertise within a field is not an "appeal to authority" fallacy.Mark K. Bilbo 22:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I see no need for an NPOV tag as the article currently stands.--SarekOfVulcan 21:04, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Neither do I. Is there anyone else here who does see the need? - Just zis  Guy, you know? ^[T]/_[C] AfD? 22:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't look necessary here. Mark K. Bilbo 22:32, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Nope, its a one-person crusade as it stands. I suggest WP:CON applies. KillerChihuahua^?!? 22:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mediator response: Faith and rationality

I have to admit that I endorse Sarek's view. There is nothing objectionable in there. Like other user said it seems a pretty balanced statement of the subject.

Don't put the neutrality dispute tag on the page, you may have your discussion about the things that are POV also on talk page. Bonaparte talk 15:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] misplacement of "only"

This sentence "Rationalism makes no statement either way regarding the existence of God or the validity or value of religion; it only rejects any belief based on faith alone. " was not clear, because the "only" modified "rejects." It could have been reworded: "Rationalism makes no statement either way regarding the existence of God or the validity or value of religion; it rejects only any belief based on faith alone. " but now it reads awkwardly. So I did my best fix. You could fix it to: "Rationalism makes no statement either way regarding the existence of God or the validity or value of religion; it rejects any belief based only on faith. " If you like that. But "only rejects" would contrast "to reject" with other possibilities, such as "to refute" .

But, by the way, I think the section is a muddle anyway, because I do not see a clear discussion of belief based on faith and observation. The dichotomy that is implied is not sustainable. In a highly polarized world, one group claims to put faith ahead of rationalism, but ends up using rational arguments. The opponents might claim they are not accepting anything on faith, but they have faith in their senses and reasoning power. Anyway, the set of beliefs supported by faith alone is extremely small, because even those people who proudly proclaim their faith have documents (bible, Koran, or whatever) and often tales of miracles to back them up. Carrionluggage 08:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rationalism

"Rationalism holds that truth should be determined by reason and factual analysis, rather than faith, dogma or religious teaching." This is not true, see the article on rationalism. Srnec 04:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cleanup

I've done a little cleanup, corrected some spelling errors. Still a lot to be done. Also, the title should be Faith and Reason. Rick Norwood 23:30, 3 March 2007 (UTC)